Western makers vs. established japanese smiths

[Viggetorr]

Generally on this forum, and in the community in particular, it seems to me that western makers inspired by japanese knives seem to fetch a lot higher prices per knife than most of the established japanese smiths charge (excepting the shig/kato craze). Why is that? Do knives by makers such as Halcyon Forge, Comet, Dalman, Hazenberg and so on (generally) outperform mid-priced japanese makers such as Tanaka, Kurosaki, the Gesshin lines Wakui and so on? Or is the price setting more of a supply/demand kind of thing which make these western makers more desirable for western knife knuts and collectors?

Please discuss!

 

[Larrin]

I haven't put any of the makers knives you listed side by side to compare, but similarities in style do not always mean they are similar in terms of hours or material costs. On top of that, many of the Japanese makers are making many knives in the same model in batches whereas "new" American makers are typically producing one off knives.

 

[RDalman]

Price is always a funtion of supply/demand for the japanese too.
I think "generally" is difficult. There are folks disappointed in japanese randomness, as well as folks disappointed in western garage tweakers. Also, what is best for one knife-knut is not necessarily best for the other.

 

[Gregmega]

Agree with RD on this one. Most western smiths produce one or several at a time, alone, and only in their style, while Japanese smiths could have several oem accounts on top of their own signature line, and a host of other people as part of the production, making their output much greater. But there’s a whole other convo in there about s&d, cog’s, etc that could be trivialized ad infintum.

I wouldn’t say out perform, so much as I’d say perform differently. There’s a pretty clear difference between Japanese & western makers in my experience, and as such, I’d even go as far to say it’s difficult to compare & contrast without coming to the conclusion they they’re just different animals all together. I enjoy mine for completely different reasons, FWIW [emoji847]

 

[labor of love]

Great discussion so far and I agree with everything said. Also, it took quite awhile for me to figure out that their really doesn’t need to be a preference for either part of the dichotomy but rather appreciate the things both models bring to the table.

 

[Barmoley]

Usually, fit and finish is better with western makers. Also, handles are usually much more elaborate, using different materials and shapes. For most Japanese makers a handle is just an after thought. Like it or not but these things take work, which costs time and money. Both produce great knives which are different enough to peacefully coexist.

 

[aaamax]

I'll say that with the "Westerners" custom makers, et all, you are more than likely getting a blade made by said Smith.
The Japanese makers... well, maybe not so much... but that is a Whole Other Monster Discussion, but worth mentioning in this context.
my 2c

 

[labor of love]

I will say what lead me to trying out more western makers was the openness to pushing mono steel to the limits, Atleast with a $400-600 price tag. Ofcourse with a budget thrown out the window we can enjoy plenty of $900-1200 honyakis made in Japan.
By that same token there’s so many great brands and Smiths in Japan that seem to have perfected the division of labor and have delivered great San mai blades to the market for $250-400.
My thinking at this point is as such...if I want mono+customization+F&F= Western maker.
If I want San mai+experience through trail and error at perfecting a harmony of grind/heat treat/profile+division of labor to improve costs= Japanese maker.
The outliers are abundant here- plenty of western makers do great San mai I’m sure, and plenty of Japanese makers excel at F&F.
The learned experience of cranking out many knives efficiently and constantly improving the process can’t be understated.
The learned experience of having a direct connection with the customer to make a knife to his liking can’t be understated either.

 

[captaincaed]

It seems like there can be a difference in priorities given different customer needs, and thus different economic and social expectations that need to be met.

I think if you're in the knife game long enough you start to blow past the $200 limit you hold yourself to in the beginning. Once you break that seal ...

Once you start spending "real money", I feel like I want a "complete package" of quality steel, quality grind, and to some extent, creature comforts like fancy handles. Bought my Carter basically on handle alone. Maybe not the best choice but there you go.

I also like the support provided by helpful proprietors. I don't have the cultural intelligence to deal with Japan directly, so I'm inclined to speak with people who speak my lingo at can translate.

I also think that craftsmen are weirdos, in the best sense. Sometimes there's a craftsmanship tradition to bring the makers together, and sometimes not. There are economic consequences both ways to keep a business afloat. I have to imagine that western makers have lower volumes, and thus need to cater to a custom market that can live harmoniously in parallel to a market that favors functional economy.

Then there are custom makers who strike it crazy lucky and end up putting golden rhinos on their blades. Not sure how that market functions, I have to work for living.

And now I've talked way too long

 

[nakneker]

I like this thread, I’ve been pondering Western Makers vs Japanese for the last month or so. Started my journey into J knives about 10 months ago, I started with a 200 Makato and thought it was a Cadillac. I’ve since traded and sold dozens of knives. It’s been all Japanese knives for most of that time. I ended up with some Shigs, some Katos, various Honyakis and didn’t give the Western Smiths much of a look at all. That’s changing though. I’m on the books with Haburn, Halycon, Carter Hopkins, Bloodroot.

There’s many others I intend to try too. For me personally the Makers outside of Japan offer a variety and twist that Japan does not. I love my Shig, Katos and Honyakis but some of the Damascus, the bolsters, the handles and the profiles offered by those outside of Japan have become very attractive to me.

I have a lot of respect for anyone with enough courage to follow their dreams and try and make a living selling the knives they create, part tool, part art you have to have some dedication and some talent to make it in that line of work. Custom kitchen knives interest me period, both Japan and outside of Japan.

 

[Gregmega]

I will also say that western makers also don’t carry some of the ‘taboos’ that Japanese makers do, for instance when Halcyon Forge made my knife, it was an amazing experience. Specs down to the tenth of the millimeter, and during the final cut, to-the-minute opportunity for any changes, including the final shaping. Amazing. ‘Want a k-tip gyuto-hiki hybrid? Never done it, but let’s try it!’ That openness created a beautiful specimen. One of my favorite knives, and made with me in mind. Dang.

 

[Chef Doom]

The reason why American makers are more expensive is for the very reason why China makes 90% of USA goods. American labor is expensive.

Also you are paying for the learning curve American makers must go through. American education is also expensive.

 

[milkbaby]

The western makers OP is asking about tend to make sole authorship knives with very high fit and finish. Basically one person does every job needed to make the knife from forging, grinding, to making the handles. Many of the Japanese bladesmiths (not all) are using prelaminated san mai whereas many of the western makers are forging their own, for example Joe/Halcyon Forge has been laminating wrought iron to carbon steel as seen in the pic above. You can't buy that prelaminated from Hitachi, it has to be made.

I believe most of the Japanese bladesmiths mentioned work in a small workshop setting, where there are multiple people working on the knives. For example, the bladesmith may forge out the knives but there may be a separate worker that cleans up the profile, a sharpener that grinds the blade, and yet another person who installs the handles. Or even multiple people doing these jobs. The handles are often bought from an outside handle factory and merely installed.

 

[panda]

I've discovered a few western makers (not from OPs list) that i am thrilled with their work, but at the end i still yern for good ole japanese made knives. my unicorn is actually obtainable without a waitlist and/or stupid high prices and is made by a master.

 

[XooMG]

Disappointment or ambivalence creates much less acrimony when the purchase is impersonal.

 

[Chef Doom]

You can use all of the excuses you may please. Bottom line is it costs more to produce things in America than other Eastern countries, including Japan. You could get the same customer service with the same fit and finishes with the same level of custom detail if you lazy bums learned to speak Japanese. Maybe even make a trip to Japan. Since most of you don't or won't then it is obvious that the best customer service you could obtain is Made In The USA.

 

[Gregmega]

I don’t know man, have you even been to Japan? Or worked in Japan? It’s one of the few places I’ve been to that the price difference was actually was palpable versus places I’ve lived/visited. I think there’s a bit more to the convo than ‘learning to speak the language’.

 

[ecchef]

You can use all of the excuses you may please. Bottom line is it costs more to produce things in America than other Eastern countries, including Japan. You could get the same customer service with the same fit and finishes with the same level of custom detail if you lazy bums learned to speak Japanese. Maybe even make a trip to Japan. Since most of you don't or won't then it is obvious that the best customer service you could obtain is Made In The USA.

I think for the price of a round trip flight and a Japanese language intensive course, you could probably get a few great customs from US makers!

 

[Wdestate]

i agree with most of what was said already. I personally like the western makers because you can have input on exactly what you are looking for in a knife from grind to specs to handle material and generally everything in between. However all those additions you might ask for plus the materials and labor is what you are paying a premium for along with supply and demand, being that all these little additions to a blade done by one guy takes time and prevents mass production like many of the makers you mentioned from japan.

 

[Eloh]

Another, maybe more suiting comparsion might be a small company like Herder, wich offers drop forged chefs knifes sharpened by hand for around $200.

 

[ramenlegend]

You can use all of the excuses you may please. Bottom line is it costs more to produce things in America than other Eastern countries, including Japan. You could get the same customer service with the same fit and finishes with the same level of custom detail if you lazy bums learned to speak Japanese. Maybe even make a trip to Japan. Since most of you don't or won't then it is obvious that the best customer service you could obtain is Made In The USA.

Oh man! Ruthless! I guess you're not into beautiful shaped yo handles

 

[labor of love]

Oh man! Ruthless! I guess you're not into beautiful shaped yo handles

Custom maker: hey so what kinda of handle material do you want for this custom?
Me: do you have any old ho wood or iichi handles laying around?

 

[Chef Doom]

I think for the price of a round trip flight and a Japanese language intensive course, you could probably get a few great customs from US makers!

Lol I actually agree with this. It's one of those things that needs a cost benefit analysis.

 

[Chef Doom]

I don’t know man, have you even been to Japan? Or worked in Japan? It’s one of the few places I’ve been to that the price difference was actually was palpable versus places I’ve lived/visited. I think there’s a bit more to the convo than ‘learning to speak the language’.

I have not been to Japan but like most places the prices can be cheap or expensive depending on your intentions. Obviously if you plan on seeking all of the standard american comforts your wallet will suffer for it.

I'm not saying Japan is cheap. I'm simply stating American labor is generally more expensive and is increasingly being made more expensive for several factors.

 

[Chef Doom]

Oh man! Ruthless! I guess you're not into beautiful shaped yo handles

Wood is cheap, it's the drying, staining stabalizing etc that is expensive.

Lumber is something America excels at for one, and handle choices have little to do with knife performance unless you want the handle to be a major factor in knife balance.

Say what you want about ho wood, it allows the knife to be the main attraction and brings me my money on time every night without a slap to the face. The stabilized birch always needs an ass kicking.

 

[panda]

my favorite handle material is keyaki

 

[Viggetorr]

Interesting input everyone. To Chef Doom I'd just like to say that there are custom makers outside the USA (even though some americans have a tendency to forget about anything outside the US ).

However, the discussion has focused a lot on custom work from western makers, which is of course more exepensive than non custom work. A lot of western makers, at least occasionally, also produce blades without a specific customer in mind and then sell these just like a japanese smith would. These, too, tend to be more expensive than the average japanese smiths knife. Is that the F&F talking, or is the more costly labour that Chef Doom argues for? Or is the one-person-shop-factor? Thoughts?

 

[RDalman]

It's probably the supply/demand talking. For a long time I was unwilling to allow supply/demand push the prices up, but it's just not how to run a business. If you're employed, maybe look at it like if your boss offered you a raise because your work is good/well liked/popular (from a really low one, to say a more average one) would you say no thanks?

 

[Eloh]

Looking at it the other way round is more helpful, if shiro kamo or shigeki Tanaka can offer hand made full size blades for ~$100 you can be sure that there's not a lot of working hours in them


I'm sure there are western makers who would be able to do similar, but

1. There is not a big market for western made blades with terrible f&f.

2. Most western makers became knife makers due to a passion for cool knives not as merely a job.



Also you can get a xerxes Primus for the same price as a Suisin Inox Honyaki.

There simply aren't any western makers who specialize in producing decent to good cutting knives in high numbers for as cheap as possible.

 

[Viggetorr]

It's probably the supply/demand talking. For a long time I was unwilling to allow supply/demand push the prices up, but it's just not how to run a business. If you're employed, maybe look at it like if your boss offered you a raise because your work is good/well liked/popular (from a really low one, to say a more average one) would you say no thanks?

Absolutely not, and I want to make clear that I'm absolutely not trying to imply that western makers are charging to much for their work. I'm sorry if I came across that way. Supply/demand is a perfectly fine explanation, to me.

In the end, I guess I'm just trying to convince myself that I need a couple of custom western knives to compare to my jknives. A Dalman would certainly be high on that list!