define "workhorse"...

i've been around here in the forum for quite some time… i just don't post too often, but i recently I have been seeing the term "work horse" used quite a lot (kinda like how "laser" started)… how do you define it? good edge retention? something that has a good heft to it?

what makes the kato a "workhorse"?

Obviously this term has given kato knives a really good reputation… I probably saw like 5 WTB kato in the buy/sell/trade section… i mean hell, i want one too!

and i think this has something to do with the term "work horse" it kinda gives the impression that I think is one of the most important aspects in a knife, which is reliability…

Any kato owners out there who can enlighten us?

what classifies it as a workhorse?

'Workhorse' obviously refers to something that might not be the most beautiful specimen, but which does the hard work. With knives, I think this can definitely apply to the Kato Workhorse: heavy and sturdy, cuts well and keeps the edge, but not the best looker, best finished or the most elegant knife.

Because it's used with bigger no-nonsense knives a lot, I guess Maxim at JNS decided to use Workhorse as the name for his custom Katos when he first carried them. He's had a couple other non-Workhorse lines since, too. The name was translated into kanji (馬車&#39340 and that's what's on the back of the blades. Not sure if this sounds great in Japanese, but JNS doesn't target the Japanese market of course.

Ok bear w me here...
While I generally agree w what Asteger has said, I do have issues w the title 'workhorse' applied to the Kato knives. Let me get this out of the way, I own a JNS Kato, and it's my favorite gyuto hands down. The term 'workhorse' to me, implies a knife that can take abuse, this is not necessarily true of the Kato simply because it has a thick spine over the heel. In fact, due to its high hardness, the steel is more brittle, more prone to chipping than for example, my old Gesshin Gingas in white #2 which have a lower Hrc. So there are ways in which a cheaper, much thinner knife will be better able to take abuse form various cutting tasks than a Kato. Just my experience.

Agreed about the steel of course. The gyuto may feel like a club, but you can't club stuff with it.

I've been meaning to start this same thread for a while now but always forget.

I used one of my Kato Workhorse gyutos to split some acorn squash and was surprised to see this happen to the edge:



Now before everybody gets all up in arms over this, hear me out. I was pissed of course. How could this be a workhorse? If chipping on hardy veg, this by "definition" can't be a workhorse. Right? I contacted Maksim and he was straight Gentleman about it. He explained the hardness/brittleness of the steel and how this can happen, though it is rare. He explained the importance of the chips being round, not jagged (sign of proper heat treat) and he offered me a few options. Send it back for a refund or for him to fix, and the third option was to give me a chance to fix it. If I screwed it up I'd still have the first 2 options available so no risk involved.

Today I have a different perception of "Workhorse". I still think Kato is a workhorse, but in a different manner. What one might define as a workhorse could be different from another's definition. Some might think of the Clydesdale when referring to a workhorse. Massive, powerful, un-bending, and ultimately lacking some finesse and speed. This would be a correct definition for some, for those looking to plow through heavy veggies and/or proteins. To me, now, I think a scimitar would be great for these tasks.

For others, they might define a Workhorse differently. A knife that could be their "daily driver", good at everything, perfect for none. A member here one said this about his Martell gyuto and Harner boner duo. In this meaning, a workhorse is a knife that they could work through the entire day with, and would possess speed (if needed) and be able to hold it's edge better than most when faced with the same rigors. I think this is the category in which the Kato fills nicely. But that's my personal preference. Others might prefer something a little lighter in weight, something a little more pointy and nimble, something more thin for more speed.

That's my brief analogy of "Workhorse". I'd say more, but my daughter just woke up.

Oh dear. On such a thick knife, fixing that's going to take ages, the unusual geometry will be more of a challenge to preserve, and then the height you'll lose too. Yeah, I was always hesitant to use my former 240 on thick stuff like squash. Maybe M didn't consider all the promises that would be implied by using the name Workhorse?

Thanks for showing. I sometimes wonder if people are sometimes reluctant to reveal their knife troubles, perhaps because they don't want to be seen as imperfect, or because they're hesitant to show certain popular products/vendors in a less than stellar light. Luckily, you got quite a good response to what happened.

Don't know if you've got this one fixed yet, but if I were you I'd send it off or get the refund. Unless you've got grinders at home and are good with them, even with Atomas you'll need hours and hours on this, and then you'll need new Atomas after.

ouch Marc, I did wince when I saw that. Sorry man. Guess this knife isn't so much worse after all. Or perhaps it got tweaked a little when the blade hit the board. I don't know but i'm sure it wasn't for lack of technique. My sympathy goes your way, I know yo were most for of that Kato.

I found all 3 pieces that broke off. They were embedded in a squash top. I ended up grinding them out which was hell as this knife is rock hard. In the end Maksim gave me his approval so I felt like I did a pretty solid job. Did it perform like new? Nah. But pretty damned close, plus it packed a lot more muscle behind the edge. It fully redeemed itself with acorn squash afterwards. Vengeance was swift and delivered with extreme prejudice.

I was using my Kikuryu, yeah the workhorse prince, on lap yuk (Chinese cured pork belly stripe) that is a bit on the hard side. Edge was thin and hard, and I probably had the knife twisted a little because of lap yuk hardness trying to get the knife through. Nowadays, I just use a K-Sab or Sugimoto #7 :dontknow:

workhorse is the tool you do the majority of your work with, a task you need that can handle abuse is a beater, not a workhorse.

panda said:

workhorse is the tool you do the majority of your work with, a task you need that can handle abuse is a beater, not a workhorse.

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+1

Mucho Bocho said:

panda said:

workhorse is the tool you do the majority of your work with, a task you need that can handle abuse is a beater, not a workhorse.

Click to expand...

+1

Click to expand...

+1 :IMOK:

Thanks for the write-up Marc it was quite therapeutic for me to read your knife related ramblings!
I totally agree with the phrase "good at everything, perfect for none" to describe a workhorse. I'd go one step further and say many of the members on this forum don't have a knife that fits this description anymore, simply because we've tried so many knives, we could never consider any single knife to be good at everything. Instead we would chose a different knife more suitable for the job at hand rather then sticking to the same 'workhorse' all day.

panda said:

workhorse is the tool you do the majority of your work with

Click to expand...

By this definition you could have a laser-workhorse! Kind of an oxymoron dontcha think? Which only makes things more interesting! (Que images of flashing laser-guns mounted on a galloping Clydesdale) :shocked3:

^^ Enter Dalman gyutos by Robin

panda said:

workhorse is the tool you do the majority of your work with, a task you need that can handle abuse is a beater, not a workhorse.

Click to expand...

You said it workhorse is blade you use for most prep. Thin edge Japanese blades can easy fit this category since includes most all fruits & vegetables (not real hard like Kabocha pumpkin & hard squash) and meats without bone. Never tork or cut hard stuff like spliting chicken, lobster. I learned the hard way using thin gyuto's & thin cleavers you learn real quick what kind of blade you need for particular jobs.

For me medium cleaver was my beater blade & bone cleaver for chopping thu bone for ginger chicken. The knives used the most were my Masamoto and Konosuke carbons so would consider both as workhorse blades. My Yanagiba's touch nothing but fish

Most fruits and vegs, meats avoiding bones, are the majority of what we will cook and eat. So you want a knife for these, and it can be a workhorse. You can use lots of knives; a good Takeda or Watanabe can be used all over for eg, but you'll have to be more careful with a Shig because it isn't as robust - gyuto-wise, in my experience at least. To me a workhorse would be more the former, one you feel would take more abuse, you're not as worried about or delicate with, and maybe not the star looker of what you own, but also a dependable knife.

Getting back to how the thread began, there was a question of how or why the JNS Kato workhorse is called that and I think it had to do with early impressions of it being kind of a clumsy looking knife, but which was solid and did a great job.

To take it a step further, could we denote a workhorse for each type of prep work? Because a nakiri would never fall into the category of an all around workhorse simply because of the absence of a sharp tip for smaller detailed cuts. However, there has got to be a nakiri work horse, petty work horse, and/or yanagi workhorse. Not arguing the fact that gyutos are not workhorses, because they most certainly are, just wanted to keep traveling down this rabbit hole of an interesting post.

That being said, I also believe a workhorse has to be somewhat low maintenance. A knife that requires regular whipping throughout a lengthy prep is not very worthy of being called a workhorse.

Kippington said:

... the phrase "good at everything, perfect for none" to describe a workhorse.

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Santoku have often been described like this, but they're not that popular here.

I'm just sad because this thread has so much more momentum than the one i started trying to kill the term 'laser'.

In my opinion, the Japanese carbon steels like white2, white1, blue1, blue2, with high HRC around 61, can never be "workhorse". These steels don't have enough toughness,
I think the real workhorse(hardly to chip) should at least use steel like S35VN with HRC around 60. Lots of folding knives use this steel, it's toughness is great.

keithsaltydog said:

You said it workhorse is blade you use for most prep. Thin edge Japanese blades can easy fit this category since includes most all fruits & vegetables (not real hard like Kabocha pumpkin & hard squash) and meats without bone. Never tork or cut hard stuff like spliting chicken, lobster. I learned the hard way using thin gyuto's & thin cleavers you learn real quick what kind of blade you need for particular jobs.

For me medium cleaver was my beater blade & bone cleaver for chopping thu bone for ginger chicken. The knives used the most were my Masamoto and Konosuke carbons so would consider both as workhorse blades. My Yanagiba's touch nothing but fish

Click to expand...

Agree

Well said.

Soccerman said:

Agree

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Work horse to me is a Victorinox chef or any of the other straight food service grade knives offered by restaurant supply houses.