A newbie's dilemma - Tojiro or CarboNext?

[spoiledbroth]

You're right about the assymmetry; I guess most models have it. But the Tojiro and Carbonext are pretty simple 50/50 (or can be sharpened as such without running into any trouble). Although admittedly the Masahiro's look pretty much flat-ground to me as well.

Regarding the steel, I dug this up: http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/printpost.php?tid/780637/pid/1072890/
Says it's at 59 HRC.

Found the pics at bluewayjapan. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-MASAHIRO-Carbon-Steel-Gyuto-Knife-210mm-13011-/381564046602
Interestingly enough it looks almost exactly the same as my carbonext. Same profile same level of taper. Maybe Masahiro makes them?

I have owned both of the knives in question and they are not 50/50. Particularly not the carbonext! And in my humble opinion both are asymmetrically ground, in particular, again, the carbonext.

 

[Jovidah]

Well it (Carbonext) looks pretty flat ground to me. Perhaps I should have stated it a bit more clearly: at least I haven't found any problems in simply sharpening it 50/50 at equal angles. No problems with steering or anything like that.
But admittedly while thinning I did try to at least keep the edge in the same place (so I mostly took off the shoulders, but did almost all thinning the right side).

And to my knowledge neither of these comes with a really convex grind on one side and flat on the other. My carbonext certainly didn't. Unless I'm choil-blind.

In regards to the Tojiro; I always interpreted what they say themselves as 'we try to make it 50/50, but due to cheap production processes it turns out about 60/40'. (Read this on a translated Japanese Tojiro page once but can't for the life of me remember where exactly).

Then again I'm not far from noobhood myself so I'm more than willing to concede that I might be wrong in this regard. :angel2:

 

[Benuser]

When you sharpen properly, beginning behind the edge, and don't experience any problem, everything is fine. But please don't force blindly a symmetric edge on a blade because some salesman has told you may. After a year or so serious problems are to come up.

 

[Jovidah]

That may be but let's be realistic here: sticking with the original bevels in these knives means sticking with the original geometry that is very thick behind the edge. As soon as you start thinning these shoulders (which in my opinion you should or they will wedge a lot in carrots and such) you're already throwing the original geometry out of the window anyway.

It might be different for knives that come 'ready to go' and with a great grind and geometry and thin behind the edge, but let's face it: a lot of these cheaper knives are essentially treated as partial DIY projects. I don't think anyone who's serious about his knives has ever used a Carbonext without thinning the crap out of it. Probably the same with the Tojiro (although I have to admit I never used it, but everyone always seems to advice it needs thinning).

 

[Jovidah]

In all fairness though; I have to admit that I mostly just sharpened each side to a burr, without any particular attempt to 'move' the edge. So basically as Benuser was saying; sharpen each side seperately without counting strokes or swapping sides all the time.
So while I did just throw the original angles out (they were rather high) the edge is probably still off-center as it originally was... I mostly took off the shoulders but left the edge in place.
But still; quite an idiot-friendly knife and so far it seems like even I haven't managed to screw it up.

 

[chinacats]

Just to clear the mud a bit...a bit more information. Main point to takeaway is that if it's Japanese it was likely intended to be asymmetrical...

Most of the problems with sharpening 50/50 will show up over time...just like using an Edge Rookie:biggrin:

 

[WingKKF]

For whatever reason (bad luck) I have never been really satisfied with the knives I got from JCK including a Hiromoto HC, Carbonext and Tojiro DP. Both the Hiromoto and Carbonext had issues with the heat treat. The edges were "crumbly" and had little stability. With the Carbonext it got better as I sharpened it more which leads me to believe the edge was overheated during sharpening. I was never really happy with the performance of the steels. The Tojiro performed well but I did not like the handle which was a bit boxy for me. I am using a cheap $10 carbon steel cleaver I got from the wokshop which has the best performance of all the knives I've owned as the steel has good edge stability and after the work I've done with the cleaver, it is a sweet cutting machine.

My point is with less expensive knives, there is more variability in the quality of the heat treat. You could get something you're happy with or not but you can always sell or give it away and get something else. If you can handle the responsibility of carbon steel, there is a good chance you will get one which out performs any stainless steel knife you can reasonably get as stainless does not have the edge stability of carbon steel unless you are talking about AEB-L supposingly heat treated by very few specific knifemakers including Devin Thomas.

 

[psfred]

I've been quite happy with my Tojiro DP. Only thing I really don't like is that it's too short and needs to have the spine "eased" which I've not gotten around to yet.

Cuts very nicely now that I have it sharp, which took two tries (and I have a whole shop full of stones, so I'm not in the position of needing some to sharpen it).

Haven't thinned it yet because it doesn't wedge enough to bother me, quite nice right out of the box. Big handle, but I have XL sized hands and dislike very small handles, how it feels to you is something you will have to decide. Easy enough to sand down the handle some if it's too large, it's not an expensive knife.

VG-10 can be a pain to de-burr, but some green chromium oxide on wood will take care of that.

Peter

 

[spoiledbroth]

Ya I tend to disagree with much of what is being said here. Apart from the tojiro 210 sujihiki I think most of the knives are quite servicable considering the bargain basement price point. The carbonext I owned was 210 and a little shorter than I'd like but that's my bad for not reading the measurements. It was quite thin behind the edge indeed. I did not buy the Es version.

I think it's hard to judge based on one knife so I should not say anything about carbonext. However I have owned and bought many tojiro for line cooks and looked at them before passing them on... Not tremendously thick behind the edge.

And fwiw I think Koki is a great vendor and if you had issues like you describe as much as it sucks the only way he can remedy this is if you contact him and send the knife back. If you didn't .. Sorry mate!

 

[Jovidah]

Well in that case I guess it's best to disregard most of what I've said about the Tojiro as I don't own one - only handled them in stores, but most other knowledge from pictures and reading.

Regarding the varying experiences with the Carbonext, I think this touches upon a very real issue that is rarely talked about here: variation within a line of knives. It probably happens more on cheap knives (there was a nice comparison on a German forum between Fujiwara knives that showed wild differences in thickness behind the edge), but can also happen on more expensive knives (I guess Takeda is the most recent iteration to come to attention here?).
So the differences are not just in 'botchy heat treat' but the knives occasionally also get ground differently or have a thicker or thinner edge.
Interestingly enough, the profile on my 240 Carbonext gyuto looks wildly different to some others I've seen on the net - much flatter and way less belly at the front. Maybe different producer?

 

[Benuser]

The Carbonext used to come almost unsharpened. Hardly a problem with the Japanese home market, but a little problematic abroad. It's my understanding that JCK has done the necessary efforts to remediate.
That being said, a factory edge is generally far from perfect, and mostly weak. Put your own edge on it, as soon as possible, and start with a coarse stone to remove a bit of steel. Factory buffering causes edges that won't hold.
About the Fujiwara test by our German counterparts: the first one wasn't brand new. To find a 0.5mm thickness right behind the edge is remarkable. A year of frequent sharpening with a jig-system may explain.
About profile and geometry changes in time: JCK seems to be mostly attentive to users' experience and changes specifications.

 

[Benuser]

I should have added that it is very hard to compare profiles from photos.

 

[Jovidah]

Actually I stand corrected...again..about the profile. After holding them side by side with the picture it appears they have the same profile.
It's really weird; it looks like it has a lot of curve and belly on the photo's, yet it feels really flat (in a good way) with a nice flat spot when using it.

For the record; mine actually came with a quite decent edge (even though very asymmetricly sharpened pretty much like the Masahiro's in the review you linked). Actually shaved fine, and that's without the ES option. The only real 'issue' with the knife is that it comes thick behind the edge, but that is pretty well known (and relatively common in the price range).

To go a bit more on topic: I wonder if the original poster is still reading, or whether he zoned out after thinking things either got too expensive or too complicated.

 

[supersayan3]

Go get a Masahiro VIrgin CArbon metal bolster ASAP with closed eyes.
I had originally thinned the 21cm, but I don't remember if it needed thinning. I was over excited by a laser Masahiro STainless, so I thinned it. The 24cm does not need thinning. In the beginning I didn't liked he dimensions of the 24cm, but now I love it more than the 21cm. Very comfortable, fun and versatile knife to work with. Masahiro gives it hardness 58-59, but everyone who ownes Masahiro VC and Misono dragon(60 HRC) , all state that Masahiro is harder. You can do with it, everything you would had done with a Deba as well. Never chips! Only drawback, it discolors red onions. No taste, no perfume.
Just for the record, Masahiro is owned by Hattori s family.
Sharpens faster than anything, is very asymmetrical, which makes it fun to work with, and 50% less sharpening