An inquisitive cautionary tale

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marc4pt0

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I want to start this off by saying this thread is solely intended to get some constructive feedback and to inform others of my unfortunate dealings. Call it an inquisitive cautionary tale if you will. It will most likely spark some negativity, though I hope it will not get out of hand. I do not want this to become a crap show of mud slinging. So please, if posting a comment here, keep it civilized.

*Moderators- please help, if possible to keep this clean. I realize I'm walking a pretty thin line here, but I feel compelled to share this unfortunate experience.

This ordeal started back in October of 2013 as a fairly positive experience. One that highlighted the positive vibe this Forum offers in spades.
I purchased a knife off of BST from a respected member here for a very good price. The member made mention of a flaw it possessed, and the original maker of this knife offered to help right this flaw. So off to the original maker it went. Once he received it he sent me a message with some pictures showing me that the flaw was worse off than he had thought, and that he may not be able to fix it. After some goings back and forth, the maker offered to replace the knife. Free of charge (minus some handle material costs, I believe). This was extremely generous, as I think anyone would agree. So happy me.

Time had passed, and the original seller and I had reached out a few times to check in on the knife's progress. The maker had told me that it would be finished soon. More time had passed, and the maker apologized for the length of time and told me that he had received the knife blanks, insinuating it would be finished soon. Or at least that's how I read it. This was followed by another message 7 months later saying he had the original gyuto sitting center stage as a reminder to get it started ASAP. This message came almost a year after the original purchase was made. There were other pm's in between this time, I don't feel that some of them show well for the Maker, so I will leave them out.

Fast forward 2 more months- The Maker had posted a knife for sell that I thought looked very nice. In this posting he had mentioned several flaws about this knife and was selling it for a very affordable price. I shot him a pm asking if he'd consider using that knife as the replacement we had been waiting for. The knife didn't sell for almost 2 days and was even discounted more off the original fantastic price. I thought we could work something out here. The Maker got back to me later mentioning it had already sold. Nothing wrong with that, I just thought I'd throw that offer out there.

Fast forward a few more months- We had been keeping in touch from time to time regarding this, and he always apologized for the amount of time it had taken. I always understood and was never upset about it. After all, how could I be? He was still committed to this more than generous offer and for that I was always appreciative. In hindsight, maybe I should have expressed this more often in our correspondence. During our messaging we would wish each other Happy Holidays and such, and I'd inquire as to how he was coming along with his personal/professional struggles. I thought we were getting along well actually.

Then late last year he posted another knife for sell. I bought it as I thought it would be interesting to see his work in stainless steel form, which this knife offered. We messaged back and forth about it after I received the knife, I mentioned how well I thought it performed and that I had some reservations about a specific detail. I mentioned I liked his handle work and I thought this specific knife didn't really offer his full potential. I then offered/inquired about sending him a Carter 240 gyuto along with handle materials to have it re-handled. I asked about pricing and ball park time for turnaround. The Carter doesn't get used too much as I'm currently not really digging the existing handle. There was more than one way to acquire a sample of his work, I thought.
It's around this time that all heck broke loose, which included him "publicly" insulting me in another thread.

Up until now I've referred to this guy as the maker during this recount, just to keep his name somewhat out of it. I know full well that most members here will quickly figure out who I'm referring to, especially after the recent handle dilemma I just mentioned. This is where I fear this thread may go poorly, or simply just disappear as the person I'm speaking about is a highly regarded member here. I realize that by posting this I may be subjecting myself to some negative focus, but I feel very strongly that this ordeal needs to be discussed openly.

After the whole handle dilemma, I reached out to the maker and asked him to simply return the original knife that I had bought over 2 years ago. I figured it would just be easier this way, for the both of us. An easy way to make this all settle a bit softer. He then replied by telling me the original knife was ruined from an experiment he tried in an attempt to fix it, prior to his offering a replacement knife. So now I know why the maker offered a replacement knife in the beginning. I still think it was a generous offer, but he had never mentioned this prior to this message about a month or so ago.
He then went on to ask me what I had paid for the original knife (2+ yrs ago) and asked if I could provide some proof showing this. I thought this was weird but I fwd him the correspondence between the original seller and I so he could see.

Another month passed by and on Monday I received another email from the maker. In this email he stated that he will no longer be offering the replacement knife that he initially committed to quite some time ago. He then offered me a credit for the price I paid, to be used towards a new knife that must be twice the amount. As of now, I don't think this maker charges $700 for a knife. At least not that I'm aware of? Lastly, he told me that he will need to see formal proof that did I indeed pay for this knife, and it must show the amount I paid. This, he closed, will be his only offer.

Now, to me, this is in its purist form straight downright dirty dishonesty. I also think this can be considered a form of theft. And it's absolutely crazy for this person to think that I would ever consider giving him my hard earned cash again. Technically, that was my knife that he "ruined". Technically, if he refuses to make me the replacement he obligated himself to, he would owe me $350. What's a credit worth with this guy? Nothing as far as I'm concerned.

Let me rewind to over 2 years ago here. The original seller was very surprised by the maker's photos and comments regarding just how damaged the knife was. The seller had contacted me and apologized, making note that the knife wasn't that bad when he had sent it. At least not that he had thought. And the pictures he had posted on his BST thread didn't look that bad. The seller than offered to mail another knife he had just received to let me toy around with until this fiasco had come to pass. Well, I'm a knife addict so naturally I was quite impressed with this second knife. So the seller and I worked out a deal- he'd sell me the second knife (for an amount that I don't recall) which meant he kept the original $350 plus I would owe him a few more $$. And that's what we did. The other part of the deal was when the maker finished the replacement he would send it to me. If I decided to keep it I would then owe the seller the original asking price. If I decided it wasn't for me, I would simply mail the knife back to the seller and that would be that. Pretty amazing if you ask me. That there is what this forum is all about.

I bring this little factoid up as I think it's pretty relevant to the current status this whole ordeal is in. After reading the maker's last email I decided to bow out. He had gone too far and I simply do not wish to continue dealing with him and his dishonest ways. I informed the seller of this and thought it best that he deal with it, as it is really him that's still out the $350, not I. Yes, I felt somewhat bad pawning off this problem to someone else who has been more than fair during the original transaction. I have to be honest though, I also feel a bit relieved that it's not my $350 that this maker is choosing to screw me out of.

And this brings me to my questions at hand:

What would you, the reader, do in this situation? Had I done something wrong somewhere along this crazy timeline? Is this acceptable behavior from a vendor here and I'm just being a sensitive ninny?

If this thread is still up, and if anyone has questions, please feel free to hit me up by either posting here or through pm.

Obviously I feel wronged by the maker here. But perhaps there's some outside wisdom that can be shared to put this in a better perspective. One can always hope...

And if all else fails, well, I've made some pretty good friends here. Ones that I've met in person and will continue to keep in touch with.
 
All you can really do Marc is write it off. Maybe work out a deal where you and the seller (not the maker), absorb the loss together. It was neither of your fault, and neither of you deserve it...but at least this way the personal impact for you both is minimized.

I don't know who the maker is, but if this hasn't been resolved by now, it won't be. Let people know where it's applicable, but otherwise lose no sleep over it.

Know what I mean?
 
Just let it go. Clearly this whole ordeal has made you unhappy and stressed out. $350 isn't worth the pain.

Cut some deal with the seller since he's doesn't deserve taking the entire hit when he's obviously trying to do the right thing

I remember the thread and didn't you say something like the gyuto you brought has alot of bad mojo and you didn't like having it around. Just sell the knife and move along
 
I contacted the seller this morning. I think the maker might offer the same "deal" to him, but who knows.
As for selling the current knife I have, I'm afraid I'd take a bit of a loss on it. Maybe down the road I will. Time will tell. It is a solid cutter though. One that I do like using from time to time.
 
Well, do we want a community or information? Because honestly the two are mutually exclusive a lot of the time here. I don't have the answer.
Best of luck to all involved.
Matteo
 
First, it's sad that the situation has come to this. From what I've read in this and other related posts, I don't see a great solution.
I think the solution would be for the maker to honor his offer to replace the knife that either had a fatal flaw from the beginning (which could have been a natural flaw in the wood, not necessarily the maker's fault). But when the extent of the flaw was discovered, and the maker offered to replace the knife, he should follow through with that commitment. I think many here appreciate and respect those who stand behind their work.
Unfortunately, there's no way to compel him to do this, so perhaps it is time to cut and run.
In fairness, I'm sure the maker has other relevant information and perception. It's hard to come up with anything conclusive when only hearing from one side. (I do think you did an admirable job in putting your side out there in what seems to be an objective and factual way, Marc, it's just that there are always two sides to every story. I don't see much potential, though, in having a public response here . . .)
The seller seems to have shown a great deal of good faith, and I don't think he deserves to take the total loss, so maybe you two should share the loss somewhat equally. Which sucks for both of you, but sucking half as much for two people sounds better, to me, than him taking the entire loss.
 
Okay, crazy idea here, but what about going to "arbitration", if buyer and maker could agree to one (or more) mods hearing both sides and coming to some type of final decision?
I could certainly see why a mod would not want to be put in that position, but perhaps could help to come up with a resolution.
 
Some of the business practices of some custom makers that get tolerated are absolutely ridiculous.
 
Definitely sorry to read it has come to this. I feel your pain, as four 'vendors' stiffed me on payments or products they owed me over a 2 year period. In one instance other forum members helped me get the product. In another instance, the vendor settled on splitting the loss with me (was not my committment/ loss, though, and this sinlge item was more than the other 3 combined...), In the third I am still waiting on the knife, which was supposedly finished about 6 months ago, and on the fourth the maker insisted he paid me even though neither he nor I had any such records of payment, and I was keeping meticulous records. In fact, my only records are of him indicating he did not have the money at the time, and I told him it could wait until he was on better footing. When I followed up the next year to inquire about a product he was selling through the forum, he indicated he would not apply the owed amount towards it because he needed the money, and also because he thought he had a money order cut for me in US currency earlier that year (he is from outside the US). Yet he had no receipt, etc. and I had no deposits, etc. Let's be frank here, he never sent the damned payment, as I'm not exactly swimming in so many checks and money oreders that i would not have known he sent it. I doubt I more than a half dozen each year outside of salary checks from work...

Others have had better experiences with the smae vendors. In some instances, I have as well. It's just that sometimes it can be a crapshoot... And two of the vendors we part-time and two full-time.
 
why would you not disclose the maker? the whole purpose of feedback is to let others know. don't be scared that the person is a 'respected member' if someone does you wrong, you have every right to call them out on it publicly.
 
I think writing publicly is the right thing to do. I also feel like some are part time makers but have other jobs and that has to be part of the equation. I have had makers put knife after knife up for sale while I'm still waiting for mine and it totally bummed me out. In this case the maker should make the knife. Right or wrong get some good karma out there and finish your end of the agreement. If not split it with the original seller or come to some type of agreement so either of you don't loose completely. It's a messy situation. Mostly because the original seller was so cool about everything you don't want to totally screw him over.
 
Well over 3 years ago I gave another (separate) knife maker $100 as a deposit for a knife to be made. He kind of fell on hard times as well but promised to come through. Later he even started a thread here showing a detailed work in progress. It was never finished, and he has since disappeared.

In some respect it is a crapshoot. I've had great dealings with some amazing knife makers here, and I've had some that are not so great.

Another gentleman quoted me $500 for a custom gyuto almost 3 years ago when I first inquired about his work. His prices have since increased (rightfully so) and today they are almost 3 times what his original quote was. During that time my gyuto was back-burnered on several occasions, many times by my own doing. However, when I finally gave the green light to go, he insisted on keeping with the original $500 quote.
He didn't have to, and I certainly wasn't asking for it as it wasn't fair to him. But in the end he kept to his word and original commitment. And because of this, along with his extraordinary talent, I respect the heck out of this guy. And the knife I got from him last month was more than worth the wait.
 
why would you not disclose the maker? the whole purpose of feedback is to let others know. don't be scared that the person is a 'respected member' if someone does you wrong, you have every right to call them out on it publicly.

It's not a matter of being scared of the person in question, more so my just wanting this thread to stay "live" as long as possible.

Plus I figured his name will come up eventually. And if one really wanted to find out it wouldn't be that hard to do.
 
Well some reason I cant post the makers name lets try Canderson.

I undeleted this because Chris is not a registered vendor.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
In order for this thread to remain open, vendors will not be called out by name unless they (vendors) themselves post and become part of the discussion. Until then, any inquiries regarding the identities of vendors should be through p/ms. Thanks.
 
From your last comment I think you've seen both ends of the spectrum, as far as custom maker professionalism is concerned. I don't know if that achieves a balance for you, but I'd see it as karma taking care of the equilibrium.
Major kudos to the maker who honored the $500 quote. A true gent.
The other maker is just a bum.

Cheers

J
 
In order for this thread to remain open, vendors will not be called out by name unless they (vendors) themselves post and become part of the discussion. Until then, any inquiries regarding the identities of vendors should be through p/ms. Thanks.

Thank you. I've received a couple pm's inquiring who the maker was. I wasn't too sure if disclosing this info would be ok .
 
Some of the business practices of some custom makers that get tolerated are absolutely ridiculous.

I have to agree with that statement and some may quick to shoot me down, but I am sometimes amazed by the horrible business practices displayed when it comes to certain custom knives. Multiple occasions of people taking money for a product and straight out not delivering for extended amounts of time over the promised delivery date, sometimes never. I am not applying this to all makers out there but for the price being charged the service is not up to par by many. I never had interest in the unnamed maker's above knives because I thought they where overpriced for what they were, but how anyone would want to conduct business with him after reading about all this and his responses amazes me. Many people on here have a ball ripping on dude from "the site that no one can name" at any chance possible then let other "businessmen" skate by with far worse practices. I love kitchen knives, I use them all day then come home and read about, I have too many & constantly want many more, but the amateur dealings with and subpar products by certain custom makers has steered my recent purchases towards Japanese Brands from trusted, established businesses, sh*t, I have sub $100 Tadafusas that are better than some customs I purchased for multiple hundreds.
 
I subpar products by certain custom makers has steered my recent purchases towards Japanese Brands from trusted, established businesses, sh*t, I have sub $100 Tadafusas that are better than some customs I purchased for multiple hundreds.

That is something I'm a little bit worried about ... It sometimes feels that custom makers here can do no wrong. And while I started with a few select customs now (not received any yet, but so far none over delivery date... None but one, but that's explainable), I do feel a little uneasy about spending so much money on a product I often can only find feedback about in this forum.

And let's be frank: the majority of times its "amazing cutter", "incredible fit and finish" etc. I can't help but wonder if sometimes a healthy dose of "talking myself into the knife" is involved, because someone spent a lot of money on a custom, he (or she) has a hard time admitting that it's not that amazing of a cutter.

I'm really talking about the product here, not the business practices. I have a very clear view on that. I'm a sucker for honest business practices and REAL customer service, maybe more so because it's seen less and less.

Taking deposits and then not delivering years after the initially agreed upon delivery date is nothing short of theft! And those makers should be called out openly! If it can be proven!

When talking about "some of the makers on this forum", it's also interesting to me, as there aren't THAT many. I think we all know the maker mentioned by the OP, and I also think we all know the one who insisted on the originally quoted price.

I think it's important to name those who do offer fantastic service, but I also think those who really wronged customers should be called out at some point. I do realize that this can potentially ruin their business. But you know what? If you don't deliver what you promised and can't/won't put out a top notch product and service, maybe you shouldn't be running a/that business anyway. Maybe I'm too frank, but this is the reality of business in a capitalist society. If I want to donate money I donate it to help children in need. If I want to give away money, I give it to friends and family. If I want to buy a product, it's a business deal. And I expect a specific return!

Exceptions are always part of the game, of course.
 
Many people on here have a ball ripping on dude from "the site that no one can name" at any chance possible then let other "businessmen" skate by with far worse practices. I love kitchen knives, I use them all day then come home and read about, I have too many & constantly want many more, but the amateur dealings with and subpar products by certain custom makers has steered my recent purchases towards Japanese Brands from trusted, established businesses, sh*t, I have sub $100 Tadafusas that are better than some customs I purchased for multiple hundreds.

I have mixed feelings. I think knives from custom makers can be a lot of fun & it's enjoyable to see different grinds and steels, sometimes not easily come by otherwise. I also appreciate the effort and craftsmanship. But for bang for your buck? I would always pick proven Japanese makers. They're great knives for a reason.

I've also seen how doing business with custom makers can be frustrating. I've bought a ready made knife from a custom maker and I'm still waiting on it. Four months later. Now I own a knife from that maker, purchased directly, and I love their work and am understanding. I asked for an additional saya and said time wasn't an issue. And it isn't. I'll happily wait. And I get that life can throw you curve balls. But I've gotten multiple messages saying, "It's all done. Knife will ship out (2 days from now)". For months. And that is frustrating.

I want to point out this maker has also given me a wonderful wooden strop, gratis, that I love & use often to this day. So I have nothing but great experiences before. But I completely understand why the whole experience can get tiring...
 
Major kudos to the maker who honored the $500 quote. A true gent.
The other maker is just a bum.

I think this is a little harsh. I guess a good indicator would be that if you're asked for more than a token amount just to get on the list, they may be having cash flow issues, which could be a problem down the line. Nothing changes the fact that it's a horrible thing to have happen, and it would seem that the straw which broke the camel's back was the refusal of the maker to honour his promise.

Nobody would intentionally under-deliver, but it can be very difficult to not over-promise until you have the experience to really know your capacity. I mention this as I have found that my dealings with M.S's have been on a completely different level of professionalism. I guess in most cases these guys are smiths who've truly come of age as knife-makers and have learned to manage their time, charge the right amount and understand the importance of customer support.

In one instance I was importing a katana from the US, which is not an easy thing to do in England, and as expected it got hung up at customs. I reached out to the smith, who I'd had no prior dealings with (as the blade was purchased pre-owned), and he spent the next few hours clearing it up with customs. He took it upon himself to get in touch with the customs agency, and explain why the sword was a valid exception to the import bans. I was blown away that he'd do this and obviously intended to pay him for his time, but he wouldn't accept a cent and said that all he wanted was a promise that the sword would be used and taken care of.

I've had this same kind of experience with only one knife-maker who is not a M.S. (I don't yet have any blades from him, but he gave up over 6 hours of his time to speak to me) and I believe this to be the same "true gent" that Marc mentioned.

I do often wonder how a US maker who isn't in the top 1-2% for pricing can make a living at this. Either they must be hobbyists who are subsidising their knife making with another job, or they must be incredibly efficient and operating with very small margins. The small margins would be a cause of concern for me as it does limit the maker's ability to stand behind the product before making a significant loss. I don't know the knife-making business, but it doesn't seem lucrative at the best of times. I'd assume that some are too eager to please and consequently end up with a huge backlog and haven't budgeted time for admin and customer service in the rates they're charging, so something has to give.
 
I'm really talking about the product here, not the business practices. I have a very clear view on that. I'm a sucker for honest business practices and REAL customer service, maybe more so because it's seen less and less.

I'd wager that this is mostly because margins in every sector are being squeezed, as customers become more price conscious businesses have to cut costs to stay competitive; you've got rising staff costs, increasing rent for premises and customers looking to tighten their belt - so something has to give. Customer service costs money and good customer service costs serious money!

In the example I mentioned above involving a sword, the customer service was better than I could ever have imagined, but the blade in question was worth a lot of money and I'd have to assume that the smith has built enough margin into his pricing to allow a few hours per day of customer service and other non-making jobs.

When talking about "some of the makers on this forum", it's also interesting to me, as there aren't THAT many.

This is a good point. There aren't that many and I would worry that bad publicity where the name is not made public could have adverse effects on others, as someone looking in on this wouldn't know who are the assured "safe bets".
 
I'd wager that this is mostly because margins in every sector are being squeezed, as customers become more price conscious businesses have to cut costs to stay competitive; you've got rising staff costs, increasing rent for premises and customers looking to tighten their belt - so something has to give. Customer service costs money and good customer service costs serious money!

In the example I mentioned above involving a sword, the customer service was better than I could ever have imagined, but the blade in question was worth a lot of money and I'd have to assume that the smith has built enough margin into his pricing to allow a few hours per day of customer service and other non-making jobs.



This is a good point. There aren't that many and I would worry that bad publicity where the name is not made public could have adverse effects on others, as someone looking in on this wouldn't know who are the assured "safe bets".

I agree. And I might add that I differentiate between outstanding customer service (that easily can make me a loyal customer even if prices are higher) and a minimum of (expected and customary) service. Not replying to inquiries, not delivering paid for or partially paid for products is not acceptable. It's bad business behavior and I'm convinced that this will (and should) ultimately doom the business OR the product is so superior/outstanding/unique that said business (owner) can get away with it...

As a business (owner) I would be careful about that though, the Internet has given Word Of Mouth a lot of firepower that can make or break a business.
 
There aren't that many and I would worry that bad publicity where the name is not made public could have adverse effects on others, as someone looking in on this wouldn't know who are the assured "safe bets".

Who's to say which vendor is an "assured safe bet"? I'm sure there are members here who have had great experiences with makers that have, at one time or another, pissed off a few people. Vendors here are vetted before they are admitted; it's not just 'pay and play'. Good people and businesses occasionally fall on hard times even after many years of stellar performance. Who would have ever guessed that GM would meet its demise the way it did? **** happens and sometimes it doesn't get made right. Is that OK?...no, it's not. But it also doesn't make someone Satan incarnate.
There is no forum taboo against raising customer service or product quality issues, but if someone wants to 'call out' a KKF vendor by name, do it in their sub-forum. That's one of the reasons its structured that way. I would hope that would be the last course of action after all other resolution methods have failed.
 
There is no forum taboo against raising customer service or product quality issues, but if someone wants to 'call out' a KKF vendor by name, do it in their sub-forum. That's one of the reasons its structured that way. I would hope that would be the last course of action after all other resolution methods have failed.

Absolutely. This should be the last move. And I think Marc did that. PM's, emails, texts should always come first. Multiple times. Checking with other forum members (in this case) could/should be part of it as well. But if a pattern shows (I think there is one specific example in the subforums right now, anyone can find it easily) then I also feel it's warranted to point it out more openly.

The forum - IMHO - should be more about protecting and aiding the members than protecting makers/vendors who have messed up multiple times. I personally rely a lot (maybe only even) on this forum to guide me towards the right choice ... well CHOICES (when does it ever stop being plural?!?!?) ... and I hope that I can get all feedback, positive and negative (or neutral) here, be it in the forum or via PM.
 
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