Been a while since we had a Cleaver chat.

[Jville]

I bought one a few months ago from a guy who got 2 from a restaurant supply store in San Francisco’s Chinatown. Apparently he walked in there and asked the lady if she had any vintage cleavers and she dug out two old carbon Ho Ching Kee Lee cleavers. Supposedly, they’re at least 20-30 years old.

When it got to me though, the edge was completely blunted. Not dull, but blunted like someone ran the edge over an Atoma plate a few times. Weird, but perfectly fixable. I shaved off a couple grams of steel and removed some low spots before I got sidetracked with other projects, but I should probably finish the job. It was already surprisingly thin BTE for such a large cleaver.

235x120 mm
504 grams
4 mm thick out of the handle with good taper
Appears to have a cladding line, so san mai instead of monosteel

Plus bonus comparison pic with a Sugimoto #6

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Mine is smaller it’s only like 200x90 but it has dramatic distal taper also and I’m hoping that subtle s grind that I’ve heard about. Kind of why I took a chance on it, been stalking it for a bit. It sounds like the one I’m getting should be in pretty good shape and ready to roll. According to vendor it’s “sharp and handle is secure.” Great info, thanks. Seems like you bought one off a guy from Reddit that was talking about them, story seems to correlate. Also you have strengthen what has already been a desire to get a togashi cleaver.

Exactly what I noticed! It has that super shallow “pseudo S-grind” from the spine to like halfway down, then that convex “bulge” before thinning out to the cutting edge. My Sugimoto, Togashi and Suien all have similar grinds. I’m assuming more Chinese cleavers used to be ground this way, then Japanese made cleavers were modeled after that, then Chinese cleavers started to go more the way of the continuous spine to edge V grind which seems like it would save a lot of production time.

 

[Jville]

This is quite interesting find, you can see the bulge in the middle grind which Japanese makers probably learned from as opposed to the more common flat V grind in Chinese cleaver these days.

I’m hoping it’s going to be a cool small/middleweight cleaver that I use.

 

[Jville]

Anyone have available info on these. Soneone gave it to me awhile ago. They got it from a garage sale. I started to thin it some at one point. I don’t use it for much, but might get it into a heavy role.

 

[Noodle Soup]

Maybe not pertinent but I would be interested if someone with more Chinese background than me can explain why cleaver brands are always "double" something. Double Rams, Swords, Happiness, etc. etc. I assume double means extra high quality or something?

 

[Luxman]

Maybe not pertinent but I would be interested if someone with more Chinese background than me can explain why cleaver brands are always "double" something. Double Rams, Swords, Happiness, etc. etc. I assume double means extra high quality or something?

things always better in pairs in chinese culture.

 

[Luxman]

Anyone have available info on these. Soneone gave it to me awhile ago. They got it from a garage sale. I started to thin it some at one point. I don’t use it for much, but might get it into a heavy role.View attachment 235476View attachment 235477

seems like regular supermarket brands etc.

 

[kpham12]

Mine is smaller it’s only like 200x90 but it has dramatic distal taper also and I’m hoping that subtle s grind that I’ve heard about. Kind of why I took a chance on it, been stalking it for a bit. It sounds like the one I’m getting should be in pretty good shape and ready to roll. According to vendor it’s “sharp and handle is secure.” Great info, thanks. Seems like you bought one off a guy from Reddit that was talking about them, story seems to correlate. Also you have strengthen what has already been a desire to get a togashi cleaver.

Togashi iron clad cleaver is really nice. I want to try his stainless clad white 1 cleaver even though I’m not big on stainless cladding.

 

[kpham12]

Did anyone here pick up one of these reprofiled Suien cleavers? Curious to see what the end product looks like.

 

[blokey]

 

[Ericfg]

Here's my foray into Asian cleavers: a Henckels Friodur from, I'd guess, around the 1970s/80s.

Weighs in at 297 grams.
Thickness of the spine at about .5 inch from the bolster: 2.95mm
Thickness of the spine at about .5" from the end: 1.75mm. So some taper.
Thickness of the edge in the same two places at about .25 inch from the apex: .97mm and .77mm.

Blade length: 200 mm. Overall length: 350 mm.
So it's got a pretty decent Asian cleaver profile to it (I think.)
Came to me with a dull finish to the blade faces and just a bit of a wonky blade edge.
I straightened the edge a bit (still has a 'smile' to it) polished up the faces and put a new edge on it. Takes a nice edge I must say although that's not a surprise from Friodur steel.
Gonna take it in to work today and give it a spin.

I wonder if this was actually made in Solingen like it says. Such an atypical German profile.

 

[Ericfg]

Some thoughts after using this^ for one day at work:
Cut myself at the end of the sharpening process and then again during use. This ****** is sharp! I can see why Henckels Friodur straight razor blade steels are highly sought after.
I only went up to about 1.2K grit on a guided system(Gatco) at 22 degrees. Spent a lot of time with the 'extra coarse' stones(~80 grit) and 'coarse' stones (~120g) to get a solid burr. I even dropped back down a grit once.
I did that mainly to get a decent bevel after straightening the edge.
I needed to do a dozen onions and green peppers for garnish with the kielbasa offering for tonight's dinner. Thin sliced ~15# of sysco kielbasa on a white plastic cutting board and then attacked the onions and peppers.
Skin-up peppers got sliced up with no 'popping' through the skin. I know a good edge, after a good sharpening, should do this .

edit: Two days later and I did some carrot cutting. No wedging.

 

[miggus]

What a lovely vintage cleaver @Ericfg.

I wanted to try out a 210x90mm cleaver with a decent geometry and found it diffcult to locate a CCK 1303 here in Europe, except the one for 140€ from hkknives.se.

Small report from me - I followed @drrayeye's suggestion to try out the Shibazis, which are sold now by the brands own store shipped from Europe for relatively little money. Caveat is that only the stainless 208 model is available here. Since they were so affordable, I got the 208-1 and 208-2 while I was at it at 205x85mm and 230x95mm.

First impressions: Both knives are surprisingly decently made. Not nearly as rough HK-style as one knows from other knives. Clean lines, smooth surfaces... the "antistick surface" is quite interesting. Basically is a vertical scratch pattern that has quite a bit of grip and roughs up kitchen towels when trying to wipe the knife horizontally. It is effective though in eliminating the strong stiction that usually happens with such flat knives. An interesting trade-off that works well all in all.

Handles are also pretty fine. Not many gaps, and they applied some kind of lacquer, so they're not thirsty.
Core steel is also quite decent. Haven't used it too much and can't say much about edge retention, but it is relatively easy to sharpen and deburr - I was worried about that one, since affordable stainless can be very frustrating. Not this one.

The smaller 205mm blade is fun in it's own way, quite nimble. At 330g, it doesn't have the cleaver feeling for me in that you have to push it into ingredients a little. But my hand reaches around it so I can use it to peel stuff, which is very nice to have.

But generally, I learned that this size is too small for me. The larger 230mm works much better, and is at 400g just the right amount if weight for me, I have learned.

Sadly, both these knives simply aren't thin enough to be really fun. The upside probably is that they will handle a ton of abuse before giving out - and all in all they work really well, but the sinking into food effortlessly style cutting performance just isn't there. The choil shot looks somewhat better than it actually is

Still - thanks a lot @drrayeye for this tip - the smaller cleaver allowed me to test this size for little money, which was the original goal. I fear I'm still curious about how a CCK will perform though.

 

[blokey]

What a lovely vintage cleaver @Ericfg.

I wanted to try out a 210x90mm cleaver with a decent geometry and found it diffcult to locate a CCK 1303 here in Europe, except the one for 140€ from hkknives.se.

Small report from me - I followed @drrayeye's suggestion to try out the Shibazis, which are sold now by the brands own store shipped from Europe for relatively little money. Caveat is that only the stainless 208 model is available here. Since they were so affordable, I got the 208-1 and 208-2 while I was at it at 205x85mm and 230x95mm.

View attachment 236319

First impressions: Both knives are surprisingly decently made. Not nearly as rough HK-style as one knows from other knives. Clean lines, smooth surfaces... the "antistick surface" is quite interesting. Basically is a vertical scratch pattern that has quite a bit of grip and roughs up kitchen towels when trying to wipe the knife horizontally. It is effective though in eliminating the strong stiction that usually happens with such flat knives. An interesting trade-off that works well all in all.

View attachment 236320


Handles are also pretty fine. Not many gaps, and they applied some kind of lacquer, so they're not thirsty.
Core steel is also quite decent. Haven't used it too much and can't say much about edge retention, but it is relatively easy to sharpen and deburr - I was worried about that one, since affordable stainless can be very frustrating. Not this one.

View attachment 236321

The smaller 205mm blade is fun in it's own way, quite nimble. At 330g, it doesn't have the cleaver feeling for me in that you have to push it into ingredients a little. But my hand reaches around it so I can use it to peel stuff, which is very nice to have.

But generally, I learned that this size is too small for me. The larger 230mm works much better, and is at 400g just the right amount if weight for me, I have learned.

View attachment 236318

Sadly, both these knives simply aren't thin enough to be really fun. The upside probably is that they will handle a ton of abuse before giving out - and all in all they work really well, but the sinking into food effortlessly style cutting performance just isn't there. The choil shot looks somewhat better than it actually is

View attachment 236322

Still - thanks a lot @drrayeye for this tip - the smaller cleaver allowed me to test this size for little money, which was the original goal. I fear I'm still curious about how a CCK will perform though.

It’s a good thinning project tho, most Shibazi are kind thick to appeal to mass market. CCK would be a lot better in ootb performance, tho the 1312 and 1912 are even lighter.

 

[miggus]

Yeah actually I would have liked to try a stainless CCK - but the 1911 at 210mm edge length is the biggest one I could find from the thin ones.

 

[blokey]

Yeah actually I would have liked to try a stainless CCK - but the 1911 at 210mm edge length is the biggest one I could find from the thin ones.

If you want to try, the Kagayaki Aus-8 might be better, tho I never personally tried them so I can’t be sure.
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...tainless-steel-chinese-cleaver-220mm-8-6-inch

 

[miggus]

Thanks @blokey, that one looks well-done, but the profile looks very round to me. I prefer profiles that are pretty flat with just a tad of roundness

 

[blokey]

Thanks @blokey, that one looks well-done, but the profile looks very round to me. I prefer profiles that are pretty flat with just a tad of roundness

In that case CCK is the best bet unless you want to spend more, one knife i really enjoy is Sakai Kikimori Gokujyu, Miura have 10% discount for first time buyers.
https://miuraknives.com/japanese-kn...nese-knife-sakai-kikumori.html#/50-size-22_cm

 

[blokey]

Of course, there's also the OG Sugimoto
https://www.hocho-knife.com/brands/...-chefs-chinese-cooking-knife-220x95mm-1-4001/https://www.hocho-knife.com/brands/...chefs-chinese-cooking-knife-220x110mm-6-4006/Here's what 4001 looks like
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/sugimoto-4001.47993/

 

[4wa1l]

Anyone have any recommendations for a smaller cleaver? I love my #6 Togashi. If I have some prep to do then It's almost certainly the knife I'm grabbing. I did pick up a smaller heavier cleaver but it's just too solid and doesn't have the thinness overall that I love with the Togashi. Just looking for something similar but smaller. The three I've been looking at right now are:

Sugimoto CM/SF4030
JCK Kagayaki 180mm
Togashi 180mm

The Sugimoto seems to be the front runner. Size is good and price is reasonable-ish. Kagayaki is cheap and I feel like better value but I think it's getting too small and into tall nakiri territory (180x85mm). The Togashi is the baller option. It's also on the shorter side and almost 2x the price of the Sugimoto so it seems kind of crazy. But my #6 Togashi is by far my favourite knife to use so there's that... Mainly looking to see if there are any other options I'm missing. Maybe a smaller knife will lose what Iove about the big cleaver but keen to hear your thoughts.

I also know about the Shibazi but I've handled it and it's not quite what I'm after. Ideally looking for something with better steel and the classic slab handle.

 

[miggus]

Hmm @blokey ... I would spring the $ for a nice sugimoto. The #1 (220x95mm @ 400g) would fit my measurements quite well. But I think that one is too round for me as well

I definitely am looking for a knife with at least 2/3 of blade length as a flat spot for push-cutting. The CCKs seem to do this, as do the Shibazis,

 

[blokey]

Hmm @blokey ... I would spring the $ for a nice sugimoto. The #1 (220x95mm @ 400g) would fit my measurements quite well. But I think that one is too round for me as well

View attachment 236378

I definitely am looking for a knife with at least 2/3 of blade length as a flat spot for push-cutting. The CCKs seem to do this, as do the Shibazis,

Because those are Sang Dao/桑刀, a specialized knife with much more flat belly, the normal Chinese slicer, AKA Qie Pian Dao/切片刀 have those curves, and tbh the curve is Sugimoto is actually less than some Chinese professional knives. I think a common misconception about Chinese chef is that they are a chopping knife, but the predominate technique in professional Chinese kitchen is actually rocking and push cut, where the curve is much more useful, chopping is only for mincing herbs and meat.

 

[blokey]

This is most common Shibazi knife in professional kitchen, probably the one in Wang Gang's video too, the Shibazi P01 flying globe/ 十八子飞球，as you can see it is even more curvy than Sugimoto.

 

[blokey]

Tho for flatter stuff Id say Sakai Kikumori Gokujyo or this here, the flatter version is way too flat for me, and don't forgot to ask for a thinner edge.
https://knifejapan.com/ikenami-hamono-chuka-bocho-210mm/

 

[blokey]

Anyone have any recommendations for a smaller cleaver? I love my #6 Togashi. If I have some prep to do then It's almost certainly the knife I'm grabbing. I did pick up a smaller heavier cleaver but it's just too solid and doesn't have the thinness overall that I love with the Togashi. Just looking for something similar but smaller. The three I've been looking at right now are:

Sugimoto CM/SF4030
JCK Kagayaki 180mm
Togashi 180mm

The Sugimoto seems to be the front runner. Size is good and price is reasonable-ish. Kagayaki is cheap and I feel like better value but I think it's getting too small and into tall nakiri territory (180x85mm). The Togashi is the baller option. It's also on the shorter side and almost 2x the price of the Sugimoto so it seems kind of crazy. But my #6 Togashi is by far my favourite knife to use so there's that... Mainly looking to see if there are any other options I'm missing. Maybe a smaller knife will lose what Iove about the big cleaver but keen to hear your thoughts.

I also know about the Shibazi but I've handled it and it's not quite what I'm after. Ideally looking for something with better steel and the classic slab handle.

Kind weird question, but can you buy from TaoBao directly in down under? Or someone who can order for you, there are some good Chinese domestic market stuff. Tho I think 4030 would serve you well, they are well regarded for a reason.

 

[4wa1l]

Kind weird question, but can you buy from TaoBao directly in down under? Or someone who can order for you, there are some good Chinese domestic market stuff. Tho I think 4030 would serve you well, they are well regarded for a reason.

I'm not sure. But will look into it. Are there any particular models you'd recommend?

 

[blokey]

I'm not sure. But will look into it. Are there any particular models you'd recommend?

Yeah, the Xi Gong Zi and Fu Yi Dao models I posted in this thread, they are really good for the price. Fu Yi Dao makes a basically upgraded CCK, just more expensive.

 

[kpham12]

Hmm @blokey ... I would spring the $ for a nice sugimoto. The #1 (220x95mm @ 400g) would fit my measurements quite well. But I think that one is too round for me as well

View attachment 236378

I definitely am looking for a knife with at least 2/3 of blade length as a flat spot for push-cutting. The CCKs seem to do this, as do the Shibazis,

Hey, that’s my arm! In terms of a cleaver, what you really want is an overall less curved profile as opposed to a big true dead flat spot, which is really unpleasant to use, trust me. The VG-10 and Blue #1 Chopper King from CKTG are both on the less curved side and they have CCK options in stock too, but I don’t know how much shipping to Europe and customs would run you. They are all around 300 grams, so maybe a bit light according to your post, but they should also be a bit thinner BTE than a Shibazi OOTB so should move through food a bit easier and might offset the “pushing into ingredients” problem.

Sugimoto #1 tends to be less curved than the full size #6, but definitely email the retailer for pictures. If you’re ok with a fully reactive cleaver, it would be the easiest to sharpen and also when you have to eventually thin your knife one day, it’s a lot more pleasant to thin than stainless cladding.

Anyone have any recommendations for a smaller cleaver? I love my #6 Togashi. If I have some prep to do then It's almost certainly the knife I'm grabbing. I did pick up a smaller heavier cleaver but it's just too solid and doesn't have the thinness overall that I love with the Togashi. Just looking for something similar but smaller. The three I've been looking at right now are:

Sugimoto CM/SF4030
JCK Kagayaki 180mm
Togashi 180mm

The Sugimoto seems to be the front runner. Size is good and price is reasonable-ish. Kagayaki is cheap and I feel like better value but I think it's getting too small and into tall nakiri territory (180x85mm). The Togashi is the baller option. It's also on the shorter side and almost 2x the price of the Sugimoto so it seems kind of crazy. But my #6 Togashi is by far my favourite knife to use so there's that... Mainly looking to see if there are any other options I'm missing. Maybe a smaller knife will lose what Iove about the big cleaver but keen to hear your thoughts.

I also know about the Shibazi but I've handled it and it's not quite what I'm after. Ideally looking for something with better steel and the classic slab handle.

That Sugimoto CM looks pretty well priced on K&S Aus. I really like mine, compact, but still has enough mass and momentum to keep that cleaver feeling. Nice stainless steel, easy to sharpen and not bad when thinning. It’s not going to get as sharp as the Togashi, but definitely way above average for stainless cleaver options and stainless in general.

 

[spaceconvoy]

Nice looking blade but very bizarre thought process

 

[blokey]

Nice looking blade but very bizarre thought process

You mean you don’t have cabbage bandits in your area?

 

[demirtasem]

Hey all,

I'm working on a handle for one of my cleaver right now and I need a help. I never had a Sugimoto but that handle looks comfy. Is there any Sugimoto 4030 owner kindly share the measurements of its handle with me?

I attached what I need below,
A) Handle height (at the very end)
B) Bolster height
C) Blade height until bolster
D) Handle width

Thank you so much!