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Bobby2shots

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I've just received my new Shapton Glass stones and some SiC 60 grit powder. I'm not sure when I'll get to try them though, since all my knives (30 or so) are either new-in-the-box or fully sharpened. The Shaptons I got today are the SG120, SG220, SG500, and SG2k. I already had the SG320, SG1k, SG4k, and SG8k and the Shapton DGLP. The DGLP is recommended for flattening the SG500 and finer stones, and NOT recommended for the SG320 or coarser. I'm also looking for a Canadian source for finer grit SiC powders,,, 120/220 grit, and 500 grit. I've also got the Atoma 400 and 1200 plates, plus the large 220 Naniwa flattening plate, so it'll be quite a while before I get around to seeing how they all play with each other.

I've also got the Norton Waterstone 4-stone set; 220, 1k, 4k, 8k and the Naniwa Aotoshi Green Brick of Joy 2k., plus my Tormek with 100/1k 10" wet-wheel and Tormek stone grader, 3M micro-abrasive sheets,,,stropping compounds and more. (Chef's Choice TriZor and Wusthof hand sharpener) plus various butcher steels and Idahone ceramic honing rods., and still more. (Various bench-grinders with an array of wheels/abrasives.

I'm gonna need a bigger kitchen. :facepalm:
 
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M1k3

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Give the stones a little lapping before use. They seem to have a weird outter layer that needs to get past. Like a crusty, waxy layer.
 

Bobby2shots

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Will do. I did have a quick look earlier, and they seemed fine,, plenty of bite, and no trace of film or waxiness. I looked at the 120 and the 500, so I'll check the others shortly.
 

M1k3

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Will do. I did have a quick look earlier, and they seemed fine,, plenty of bite, and no trace of film or waxiness. I looked at the 120 and the 500, so I'll check the others shortly.
Splash water on it. If it beads, lap it. If the water just puddles, lap it. It should sort of soak in, not just sit on top.
 

Bobby2shots

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OK M1k3,,, I just tried the 120 and got some puddling, but no beading. I think I got a lil; careless with the amount of water,(quite a bit too much) When I see guys like Jef Jewell using splash n' go's, they're just spritzing a few small squirts to dampen the stone's surface.

Mind you, those stones are thin (5mm) and with the glass backing plate being non-permeable, I can see how even a tiny excess of water would accumulate on top..
 
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M1k3

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OK M1k3,,, I just tried the 500 and got some puddling, but no beading. I think I got a lil; careless with the amount of water,(quite a bit too much) When I see guys like Jef Jewell using splash n' go's, they're just spritzing a few small squirts to dampen the stone's surface.

Mind you, those stones are thin (5mm) and with the glass backing plate being non-permeable, I can see how even a tiny excess of water would accumulate on top..
Did the puddling absorb into the stone slowly or spread out? Or just sit there? I honestly don't worry about the amount of water I put on them. I'll need more anyway, except for a quick touch up.
 

Bobby2shots

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Did the puddling absorb into the stone slowly or spread out? Or just sit there? I honestly don't worry about the amount of water I put on them. I'll need more anyway, except for a quick touch up.
OK, so I made a correction above; it was the 120 I tried (now fixed above) and not the 500.

The puddling was excessive to begin with. I had tried pouring a couple of tablespoons worth out of a jug, and I overdid it. Hard to say. The water certainly wasn't 'soaking into" the stone until it disappeared,,,( I shook most of it off), nor did I expect it to completely soak in, but the stone did absorb "some" of that water. In fact, I'm drying it right now as I speak. I patted the surface dry (no rubbing/lint-free paper towel, dabbing gently), then placed it side-edge-down, leaning against something, to allow air circulation and slow-drying.

I could probably tell you precisely how much water it absorbed by first placing the dry stone,,,then the wet stone, on my digital kitchen scale. Maybe tomorrow. Bed time here.😴
 
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M1k3

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You don't have to stress it. Just use it. If it feels off some, lap it. Try again.
 

kayman67

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OK M1k3,,, I just tried the 120 and got some puddling, but no beading. I think I got a lil; careless with the amount of water,(quite a bit too much) When I see guys like Jef Jewell using splash n' go's, they're just spritzing a few small squirts to dampen the stone's surface.

Mind you, those stones are thin (5mm) and with the glass backing plate being non-permeable, I can see how even a tiny excess of water would accumulate on top..
Really no such thing as being able to spray too much water. It will take care of itself if it's too much on the surface. Don't worry about it.
 

ma_sha1

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I always re-surface my stones after each use, but not using a special “flatting stone”, really no need for that, just use any regular 220/240 stoneS.

I use side for 1000, the other side for 4000. It only takes a few strokes to flatten, & resurface the whetstones back to like new condition ready for next use.
 

Bobby2shots

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Really no such thing as being able to spray too much water. It will take care of itself if it's too much on the surface. Don't worry about it.
When I said I poured too much water, I was referring to the fact that there was too much water to allow observation of whether the stone was slowly absorbing some of that water. I was trying to answer M1k3's question about water "puddling, or beading" on the surface of the stone.
 

kayman67

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Years ago I used to put a few drops and see what happens, before using the stone.
 

Bobby2shots

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I always re-surface my stones after each use, but not using a special “flatting stone”, really no need for that, just use any regular 220/240 stoneS.

I use side for 1000, the other side for 4000. It only takes a few strokes to flatten, & resurface the whetstones back to like new condition ready for next use.
Apparently though, that's not working out so well for some of the people in this thread; in fact, it's the very premise behind the existence of the thread. Those people are saying that their coarse stones are performing like finer stones after flattening. There are obviously multiple reasons for this phenomenon.
 

Bobby2shots

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Years ago I used to put a few drops and see what happens, before using the stone.
Yeah, that's what I should have done. Instead, I was trying to pour a bit of water from my Brita water-filter jug, and that jug has a little flap at the pouring spout. That flap sticks sometimes, and I ended up pouring a few tablespoons of water, which completely covered the stone, and overflowed onto my kitchen counter. With the stone being totally soaked, it became impossible to see if there was any water absorbing into the stone,,,,, so,,, dry the stone, and try again the next day.

That said, I really like the look and texture of that SG120. I'm looking forward to trying it. I'm also going to order the Shapton Pro 120 and 220 to see how they compare to the SG's.
 

Kawa

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Yeah, that's what I should have done. Instead, I was trying to pour a bit of water from my Brita water-filter jug, and that jug has a little flap at the pouring spout. That flap sticks sometimes, and I ended up pouring a few tablespoons of water, which completely covered the stone, and overflowed onto my kitchen counter. With the stone being totally soaked, it became impossible to see if there was any water absorbing into the stone,,,,, so,,, dry the stone, and try again the next day.

That said, I really like the look and texture of that SG120. I'm looking forward to trying it. I'm also going to order the Shapton Pro 120 and 220 to see how they compare to the SG's.
If you ever buy or just use a SG120, i'm very curious about your experience with it. That stone is the main reason I started this thread.
After using it on one knife, i already experienced serious smoothness.
After flattening it (with a 220 grit.... 😅 I learned a lot since I started this topic) it's about the same as my 600 naniwa chosera, which also is a bit smoother then it originally was.

Allready bought coarse SiC powder, still need to get a hardened glass plate to start using it.
I also used a 60gritt flattening stone on the SG120 this week, but haven't tried the stone since then. (have to search my friends kitchen drawers for this stone to be usefull)


I'm curious if you experience the same, or what you do to maintain this stone to keep it's coarseness.




I can allready tell you it's a completely different stone then the shapton pro220 you are willing to compare. The pro220 is a soft stone (compared to sg120), therefor loses more abrasives (do i say this right?), therefore needs more flattening and for me, it keeps it coarseness like original (with just the 220 flattening stone).
 

Bobby2shots

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If you ever buy or just use a SG120, i'm very curious about your experience with it. That stone is the main reason I started this thread.
After using it on one knife, i already experienced serious smoothness.
After flattening it (with a 220 grit.... 😅 I learned a lot since I started this topic) it's about the same as my 600 naniwa chosera, which also is a bit smoother then it originally was.

Allready bought coarse SiC powder, still need to get a hardened glass plate to start using it.
I also used a 60gritt flattening stone on the SG120 this week, but haven't tried the stone since then. (have to search my friends kitchen drawers for this stone to be usefull)


I'm curious if you experience the same, or what you do to maintain this stone to keep it's coarseness.




I can allready tell you it's a completely different stone then the shapton pro220 you are willing to compare. The pro220 is a soft stone (compared to sg120), therefor loses more abrasives (do i say this right?), therefore needs more flattening and for me, it keeps it coarseness like original (with just the 220 flattening stone).
I really appreciate you posting this topic Kawa; it's very interesting and it certainly makes someone think beyond generalities.

Regarding your SG120 and your 60 grit SiC,,, you can use different man-made laminates if you don't have plate-glass or a ceramic floor tile handy. A section of smooth-surface Formica might do in a pinch. Those types of man-made laminates are dead flat, but depending on which one you use, they may not be as abrasion resistant.

I promise I'll post back regarding experience with the SG120 and 220. With this Covid-19 lockdown though, it could be a while. I need to get my hands on some dull knives.
 
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M1k3

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I have the SP120, which sounds similarly hard to SG120. I use a 20 grit plate on it. Just a a few passes on the plate and I'm back in business.
I've tried the 120 side. It works. But the stone cuts longer from the 20 grit side.
 

Bobby2shots

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I have the SP120, which sounds similarly hard to SG120. I use a 20 grit plate on it. Just a a few passes on the plate and I'm back in business.
I've tried the 120 side. It works. But the stone cuts longer from the 20 grit side.
Can you tell me more about that 20 grit plate? Brand/ model etc.?
 

Kawa

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I really appreciate you posting this topic Kawa; it's very interesting and it certainly makes someone think beyond generalities.

Regarding your SG120 and your 60 grit SiC,,, you can use different man-made laminates if you don't have plate-glass or a ceramic floor tile handy. A section of smooth-surface Formica might do in a pinch. Those types of man-made laminates are dead flat, but depending on which one you use, they may not be as abrasion resistant.

I promise I'll post back regarding experience with the SG120 and 220. With this Covid-19 lockdown though, it could be a while. I need to get my hands on some dull knives.
Thank you.
I've tried a few of the bigger hardware stores here in The Netherlands (don't know if they look the same in the USA), none of them was selling tempered glass.
I assumed I needed espesially that material, for it's flattness and hardness.

If you say a ceramic kitchen tile (the kind with a glaze on it i assume works aswell, I know for sure our hardwarestores sell them in different kinds and sizes 👍
In my kitchen I have the kinds that are matte. You feel (and see) a lot of structure/roughness on them, so they won't work. The impatient kid inside of me still almost tried it...twice...
 

Bobby2shots

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Thank you.
I've tried a few of the bigger hardware stores here in The Netherlands (don't know if they look the same in the USA), none of them was selling tempered glass.
I assumed I needed espesially that material, for it's flattness and hardness.

If you say a ceramic kitchen tile (the kind with a glaze on it i assume) works aswell, I know for sure our hardwarestores sell them in different kinds and sizes 👍
Kawa, if you see someone throwing out an old glass-top coffee-table, or glass shelves, etc. just retrieve the glass from one of those units. It's most likely tempered glass.
 

Kawa

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I have the SP120, which sounds similarly hard to SG120. I use a 20 grit plate on it. Just a a few passes on the plate and I'm back in business.
I've tried the 120 side. It works. But the stone cuts longer from the 20 grit side.
Thank you aswell.
I guess I learn I shouldn't be worried to use a too rough stone 👍
 

M1k3

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Thank you aswell.
I guess I learn I shouldn't be worried to use a too rough stone 👍
For low grits, there's less worry.

I view grits and approach like this:

Under 300ish is for metal removal, speed > finish/looks. A bit "Wild West", anything goes, regarding what's used.

Above 300ish-800ish is for removing previous scratches, setting up bevels/fixing minor errors. Metal removal = finish. Surface finish of stones is a little more important but nothing to fret over.

Above 1Kish is about finish. Less about metal removal. Metal removal < finish. Surface finish of stones is more important. Especially grit contamination.

Generally speaking with regards to thinning knives and the finish left behind. Everyone is a little different and prioritizes differently.
 

Kawa

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I always used a 220 for the really beat up knives; the ones that scream 'help me'. Lot's of scratches, but mostly lots of chippes.
220 is good for that, for me. My first stone was a Naniwa 220 superstone (220/1000 combo), which over the time got hollow. The first year i didn't know about flattening, so i didnt do that. My softest stone (the one i mention above) is hollow. Flat on a table, i see light underneath it. I think about 1mm.
I bought a Shapton 220pro as replacement, which kinda feels the same. A little more feedback and seems a little harder than the Naniwa.

And then recently I got a few knives from a friend that needed resurrection. They didn't scream at all, because they were dead. Ready for the junk yard.
I figured my 220's are fairly soft, so it's a waste to really grind a long time on such bad and cheap knives. This cheap Dutchy was afraid it ruined his stone.

I figured i needed a even more coarse stone for those kinda knives. The less time on a stone, the less wear or so..

So the SG120 came...
It's a lot harder then both of my 220's and faster cutting, so it was perfect for the job.

Since it is smoother then the 220's now, it doesn't do job I bought it for. That's why I need it to get coarse again. 100-120-160 I don't care that much, as long it is coarser then my 220's.
 

M1k3

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Coarse SiC, lapping plate or sandpaper is a life saver on the Shapton 120's. Without it, the stone falls flat with use.
 

Robert Lavacca

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Love those big jki flattening plates. For 60 bucks it’s a friggen steal. Keeps my atomas in good condition.
 

Kawa

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Today I got myself a plate to use the SiC on. So I got to play.

It is the coarse powder, so I used it on my SG120, Naniwa 400pro and Chosera 600. The stuff works like magic.
The SG120 got coarse again, the centre was just smooth (the corners were a little coarser since I tend to touch them less when I sharpen) and feels coarse again, the corners got even more coarse. So i have to be carefull. The centre feels just a little too smooth at this moment, but its way better then before. A huge difference.
The Naniwa400 feels way better, even a little more coarse then the original back side (which I never use), same goes for the Chosera 600.
So I guess I should have scrubbed a little longer on the SG120, and a little less on the 400 and 600, or I have to try to mix some medium powder with the coarse powder for the 400 and 600.
I understand i have to practise with things like pressure, duration, SiC gritt etc. etc.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions in this topic. This really is huge added value to my 'knowledge'. I enjoy the fact that the more i read around here, the bigger this hobby becomes.

For any atheists out there, get the powder! It's a completely different effect then just using a flattening stone. Well worth it.
 

Bobby2shots

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Today I got myself a plate to use the SiC on. So I got to play.

It is the coarse powder, so I used it on my SG120, Naniwa 400pro and Chosera 600. The stuff works like magic.
The SG120 got coarse again, the centre was just smooth (the corners were a little coarser since I tend to touch them less when I sharpen) and feels coarse again, the corners got even more coarse. So i have to be carefull. The centre feels just a little too smooth at this moment, but its way better then before. A huge difference.
The Naniwa400 feels way better, even a little more coarse then the original back side (which I never use), same goes for the Chosera 600.
So I guess I should have scrubbed a little longer on the SG120, and a little less on the 400 and 600, or I have to try to mix some medium powder with the coarse powder for the 400 and 600.
I understand i have to practise with things like pressure, duration, SiC gritt etc. etc.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions in this topic. This really is huge added value to my 'knowledge'. I enjoy the fact that the more i read around here, the bigger this hobby becomes.

For any atheists out there, get the powder! It's a completely different effect then just using a flattening stone. Well worth it.
That's great news Kawa,,,well done.

What grit powder did you use?

I don't think it would be a good idea to "mix" different grits of SiC powder; use the coarse grit for your very coarse stones, and get progressively finer SiC for your finishing/polishing stones. Even though SiC powders may claim to be a specific grit,,, there's actually a range of grits within that grit rating, so a 60 grit powder, may actually be more like a 60/90 grit, etc. That said, it's basically up to you what finish you want on your finer stones, and SiC has a pretty wide working range. Just remember to feel your stones carefully after flattening/conditioning, just to ensure there's no contamination of the surface.
 
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