Coticule help
- Thread starter cotedupy
- Start date
Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:
Maybe try this.
The company's history | Ardennes-Coticule (ardennes-coticule.be)
The company's history | Ardennes-Coticule (ardennes-coticule.be)
KingShapton
Senior Member
No problem 
https://www.ardennes-coticule.be/en
https://www.belgischerbrocken.de/
Also take a look at the "natural combination stones", the coticule layer is naturally grown with the Belgian Blue Whetstone layer.
With hybrid stones of this type, the Belgian Blue side should be a little finer than normal. That's just something I've read a lot, but from different sources. And you definitely have 2 different stones for your money.
https://www.ardennes-coticule.be/en
https://www.belgischerbrocken.de/
Also take a look at the "natural combination stones", the coticule layer is naturally grown with the Belgian Blue Whetstone layer.
With hybrid stones of this type, the Belgian Blue side should be a little finer than normal. That's just something I've read a lot, but from different sources. And you definitely have 2 different stones for your money.
KingShapton
Senior Member
I have 2 more tips for you. But I have to say that I have no experience with the following two shops.
https://www.griffithshavinggoods.com/collections/razor-honing-stones
The following shop is interesting if you are looking for extraordinary Coticules. And they have other unusual stones ...
https://www.1stone.fr/categorie-produit/autres-pierres/coticules/
Both shops are more in the razor sector. Just note, as svhon said, I have no experience with the two shops. But maybe they are interesting for you ?!
https://www.griffithshavinggoods.com/collections/razor-honing-stones
The following shop is interesting if you are looking for extraordinary Coticules. And they have other unusual stones ...
https://www.1stone.fr/categorie-produit/autres-pierres/coticules/
Both shops are more in the razor sector. Just note, as svhon said, I have no experience with the two shops. But maybe they are interesting for you ?!
This might not be useful info but...... If you are thinking of Belgians for kitchen knives, they leave very very keen edges that are great for fileting fish ( and shaving ), but they have pretty much no bite so as soon as the initial edge dulls.......
Thanks all for the pointers, I had no idea they had such a beautiful variety of pattern!
And thank you @branwell that is useful to know actually. I was going to do some research on that kind've thing before making a decision, as I don't know a massive amount about them. And I do prefer edges erring on the side of toothy over refined, so it sounds like perhaps like it might not be for me, and slightly too expensive for a gamble / experiment.
But aren't they pretty!
And thank you @branwell that is useful to know actually. I was going to do some research on that kind've thing before making a decision, as I don't know a massive amount about them. And I do prefer edges erring on the side of toothy over refined, so it sounds like perhaps like it might not be for me, and slightly too expensive for a gamble / experiment.
But aren't they pretty!
KingShapton
Senior Member
With this information I would advise against Coticules and Belgian Blue.
Finding a suitable stone that creates bite is very difficult. And as you said, the stones are too expensive for this type of lottery.
You could of course ask for a suitable stone by email at the first two shops I mentioned. But I fear that it will be very expensive then.
Most of the time, a suitable specimen is a lucky hit. I bought a Belgian Blue on ebay, this stone is harder than normal and finer. And to my great pleasure he leaves something bite. But that was really a lucky coincidence.
But they are really pretty stones, I agree with you.
By the way, we're in the same camp - I also prefer toothy over refind.
Last edited:
I use a Belgian Coticule for straight razor sharpening -- bought it through The Perfect Edge here in the US:
https://theperfectedge.com/product-category/belgian-stones/
https://theperfectedge.com/product-category/belgian-stones/
With this information I would advise against Coticules and Belgian Blue.
Finding a suitable copy that creates bite is very difficult. And as you said, the stones are too expensive for this type of lottery.
You could of course ask for a suitable stone by email at the first two shops I mentioned. But I fear that it will be very expensive then.
Most of the time, a suitable specimen is a lucky hit. I bought a Belgian Blue on ebay, this stone is harder than normal and finer. And to my great pleasure he leaves something bite. But that was really a lucky coincidence.
But they are really pretty stones, I agree with you.
By the way, we're in the same camp - I also prefer toothy over refind.
That said, if you use a little diamond plate to raise some mud, which in this case is a slurry of garnets, very cool in itself
, they feel awesome to sharpen on. If you where to mix in some say Aoto into that slurry, you might end up with a pretty cool edge. Slurry mixing is a lot of fun. Endless combinations that result in really unique edges, some of which are amazing. One of my favorite combos is a Rika 5K stone with Meara slurry mixed in.
Online Products — Seattle Edge
I don't know that he has yellow on the site now, but regularly does in the shop. US seller.
I don't know that he has yellow on the site now, but regularly does in the shop. US seller.
Desert Rat
Senior Member
Natural Stones (sharpeningsupplies.com)
I have one of their 8 x 2. They are also a good source for arks.
I have one of their 8 x 2. They are also a good source for arks.
I'll revive this thread to comment on this as I just talked to Milan Gravier about this recently.
He told me that he prefers a Coticule to finish his edges instead of JNats (which he uses for polishing) because he gets the toothier edges off his Coticules than he does with japanese stones.
I'm not sure about that yet but I decided to give it a try and got myself a Coticule from 1stone, thanks @KingShapton for this nice tip
Last edited:
I'll revive this thread to comment on this as I just talked to Milan Gravier about this recently.
He told me that he prefers a Coticule to finish his edges instead of JNats (which he uses for polishing) because he gets the toothier edges off his Coticules than he does with japanese stones.
I'm not sure about that yet but I decided to give it a try and got myself a Coticule from 1stone, thanks @KingShapton for this nice tip
I really like coticule and belgian blue edges on knives. I keep a little combo stone in my backpack for quick touchups at work.
I'll revive this thread to comment on this as I just talked to Milan Gravier about this recently.
He told me that he prefers a Coticule to finish his edges instead of JNats (which he uses for polishing) because he gets the toothier edges off his Coticules than he does with japanese stones.
I'm not sure about that yet but I decided to give it a try and got myself a Coticule from 1stone, thanks @KingShapton for this nice tip
I've had a limited amount of experience with a couple of cotis now, and I'd tend to agree. If used with mud and not overworked; I've got some silly-sharp, but still bite-y edges with a couple.
Last edited:
It's funny, I think of their edges as somewhat less toothy, but I don't have much jnat experience. Mostly synth. May have to give it a go. If you're going to start a little project 
Here's what I want to know...
If a group of people are discussing something niche on an internet forum and there aren't any idiots to make nonsense comments about 'comparing apples and oranges'... IS IT REALLY HAPPENING?!?
If a group of people are discussing something niche on an internet forum and there aren't any idiots to make nonsense comments about 'comparing apples and oranges'... IS IT REALLY HAPPENING?!?
Milan told me he’s using them without slurry, I will of course try both
Milan told me he’s using them without slurry, I will of course try both
Actually now I think about it - one stone I haven't used with mud as it's quite dished, so just went straight in, and it also works excellently.
(Also note - I've only ever used two coticules, and not extensively over a period of time, so my opinions on them are not going to be remotely well-informed! Definitely keen to hear your verdict when you've tried yours out...)
I have a bunch. I got them mostly for straight razors, but I'm using them more and more for knives. They vary quite a bit. I keep this one in knife drawer at home. It's part of combination strop/stone made by razor manufacturer JR Torrey. This one is probably about a hundred years old. I love it for touching up kitchen knives. It's got a loaded leather strop on the other side.
Nakiri for scale
Nakiri for scale
Steampunk
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2014
- Messages
- 380
- Reaction score
- 881
As per @stringer , Coticules do have a massive variety in their characteristics, but can make amazing finishers for kitchen knives if you find one you like. Some can even be awesome polishing stones for Kasumi work.
Most Coticule veins I've tried tend to create a smoother edge, that suits something like straight razors, woodworking tools, Yanagiba, or paring knives intended for peeling duty more than what most people like on their Gyutos. However, there are some veins (I've got a somewhat modern La Dressante au Regne which behaves like this.) that provide a wickedly toothy edge for their high grit. Just like J-Nats, you kind of need to go through a somewhat expensive process of trial-and-error to find the one(s) that suit your application. Most are excellent, fine natural stones, but only a few might be the sort of thing you're looking for.
The less expensive Belgian Blues tend to be a more reliable choice for the sort of polished-toothy edge one prefers on Gyuto. Again, there is substantial sample variation (They also aren't formally graded, so it takes a real expert to pick one for your application.), and they don't cut as fast as Coti's, but they are good stones for cullinary blades.
The primary feature of Belgian naturals over any other natural stone I've used, is their huge cutting range. A good Coti with a slurry stone, can pick up and fully refine the scratch pattern from a 600-grit synthetic stone, and can take you up to 12-15K+. A BBW doesn't break a sweat picking up from a 1K on a thick slurry, and can take you up to 4-8K. With Belgians, you just don't need all the middle-grit stones to fully refine the scratch pattern.
The edge you get on slurry with Belgian stones is different than the edge you get on J-Nats with slurry that isn't fully worked-down... Rather than toothier, it tends to be smoother, and less sharp. Coti's/BBW's cut really fast on slurry, but also tend to slurry-dull more due to the particle size of the garnets. It's easy to kill burrs on Belgian slurry, for this reason, but your edges won't necessarily be as 'crisp' on slurry with Coti's/BBW's as they could be. For that crispness, you need to work them through a full slurry-dilution progression until the apex convexity has been worked out, and you're finishing on pure water. Or, jump up from a 3-5K stone, to a BBW, or an 8K stone to a Coticule.
Hope this helps.
Most Coticule veins I've tried tend to create a smoother edge, that suits something like straight razors, woodworking tools, Yanagiba, or paring knives intended for peeling duty more than what most people like on their Gyutos. However, there are some veins (I've got a somewhat modern La Dressante au Regne which behaves like this.) that provide a wickedly toothy edge for their high grit. Just like J-Nats, you kind of need to go through a somewhat expensive process of trial-and-error to find the one(s) that suit your application. Most are excellent, fine natural stones, but only a few might be the sort of thing you're looking for.
The less expensive Belgian Blues tend to be a more reliable choice for the sort of polished-toothy edge one prefers on Gyuto. Again, there is substantial sample variation (They also aren't formally graded, so it takes a real expert to pick one for your application.), and they don't cut as fast as Coti's, but they are good stones for cullinary blades.
The primary feature of Belgian naturals over any other natural stone I've used, is their huge cutting range. A good Coti with a slurry stone, can pick up and fully refine the scratch pattern from a 600-grit synthetic stone, and can take you up to 12-15K+. A BBW doesn't break a sweat picking up from a 1K on a thick slurry, and can take you up to 4-8K. With Belgians, you just don't need all the middle-grit stones to fully refine the scratch pattern.
The edge you get on slurry with Belgian stones is different than the edge you get on J-Nats with slurry that isn't fully worked-down... Rather than toothier, it tends to be smoother, and less sharp. Coti's/BBW's cut really fast on slurry, but also tend to slurry-dull more due to the particle size of the garnets. It's easy to kill burrs on Belgian slurry, for this reason, but your edges won't necessarily be as 'crisp' on slurry with Coti's/BBW's as they could be. For that crispness, you need to work them through a full slurry-dilution progression until the apex convexity has been worked out, and you're finishing on pure water. Or, jump up from a 3-5K stone, to a BBW, or an 8K stone to a Coticule.
Hope this helps.
I have one coticule that can take any 1000 grit bevel set razor to the equivalent of a 12k synthetic in 50 laps or less. I don't even bother with slurry, just water.
This is a great explanation, thank you.
Will bear all that in mind as I've got a few more on the way. Not that I necessarily need them, but they came as part of a job lot of seven old stones which cost a bit under $75 US all-in. And frankly that was not a price I was going to pass on, though I'll probably end up swapping a couple away.
Steampunk
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2014
- Messages
- 380
- Reaction score
- 881
I can believe it. Some of these things are speed-demons.
I've seen some serious material removal on a contemporary La Veinette that auto-slurries, even on ZDP-189!
Steampunk
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2014
- Messages
- 380
- Reaction score
- 881
Some of those look like they're bonded to BBW's. Ironically, you may like the BBW sides more, and find them less worn-out than the Coti sides, for kitchen knives. Some of those BBW sides look like they might be nice based upon the coloring.
The upper one of the three looks like it might be bonded to worthless slate, but the lower two look like BBW's on the bottom.
Should be fun stones once they're lapped... I'd also try to pick up little Coticule, and BBW slurry stones. You don't know the true lifting power of the stones until you get some mud built up.
Some of those look like they're bonded to BBW's. Ironically, you may like the BBW sides more, and find them less worn-out than the Coti sides, for kitchen knives. Some of those BBW sides look like they might be nice based upon the coloring.
The upper one of the three looks like it might be bonded to worthless slate, but the lower two look like BBW's on the bottom.
Should be fun stones once they're lapped... I'd also try to pick up little Coticule, and BBW slurry stones. You don't know the true lifting power of the stones until you get some mud built up.
Ah, I thought the top one might be naturally bonded, but perhaps you're right and it's just bonded to something else, we'll see when they arrive... I did find a similarly inexpensive natural one too, though perhaps I might re-think offering it for trade now, as I like the idea of having a natural combi: WTT - Old Naturally-Bonded Coticule/BBW 200 x 47mm
@KingShapton said the same about slurry stones, and has very kindly sent me some of both already
I love coticules stones for sharpening. Actually all knives I am making are leaving the workshop with coticule edge.
I got "la veinette" and "la grise". La veinette is creamy, softer and sooo fast. La grise is harder, really fast for the hardness, great feedback. I have tried about 4 coticules. One latneuse which was coarser. One hybrid that was harder and finer. I tried them for polishing of course but the finish was scratchy on the coticule I have tested unfortunately.
For me they give toothy edges. Mine at least. The Hybrid for sure was a razor stone. But my Veinette and la Grise are great for knives. 6k edge with a lot of teeth.
1stone, ardennes-coticules and belgisher broken are some shop in Europe to find a coticule
I got "la veinette" and "la grise". La veinette is creamy, softer and sooo fast. La grise is harder, really fast for the hardness, great feedback. I have tried about 4 coticules. One latneuse which was coarser. One hybrid that was harder and finer. I tried them for polishing of course but the finish was scratchy on the coticule I have tested unfortunately.
For me they give toothy edges. Mine at least. The Hybrid for sure was a razor stone. But my Veinette and la Grise are great for knives. 6k edge with a lot of teeth.
1stone, ardennes-coticules and belgisher broken are some shop in Europe to find a coticule
Some of those look like they're bonded to BBW's. Ironically, you may like the BBW sides more, and find them less worn-out than the Coti sides, for kitchen knives. Some of those BBW sides look like they might be nice based upon the coloring.
The upper one of the three looks like it might be bonded to worthless slate, but the lower two look like BBW's on the bottom.
Should be fun stones once they're lapped... I'd also try to pick up little Coticule, and BBW slurry stones. You don't know the true lifting power of the stones until you get some mud built up.
You were spot-on about the bottom two stones - they're both bonded to BBW. They top one I haven't yet received as the seller forgot to include it, so is sending separately.
The longer of the two had a crack in one end and was coming away from the BBW, so I decided to just saw that bit off and make a slurry stone from it rather than ballsing around with glue. Really good stone, and surprisingly quick, as you said:
The other one seems a bit slower and finer, but has something quite interesting on the BBW layer... this isn't a natural combo - the BBW is glued on, but the surface of it looks like a thin hybrid layer (?), which give the stone a tricolour effect. Have you seen that kind of thing before...?
It may even be a third stone glued onto the BBW for all I know! It's certainly quite a straight division...
Steampunk
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2014
- Messages
- 380
- Reaction score
- 881
I've seen some mutant Coti's and BBW's before, but if that truly is a hybrid BBW on the bottom, it doesn't look like any I've seen so far!
Have you tried to test it, yet, to see how it handles?
I have a natural coticule combo with a lot of mixture between the two layers. Not exactly like what you got up there, but something kind of similar. It's my pride and joy that I mentioned above for going from bevel set to prefinish on a straight. At first I thought that corner was lacquered or something, but I've tried some different solvents and scratching it with a stiff wire brush and it seems to be stone. Notice also the blue lines in the coticule. There's several horizontal ones and then that near vertical one that cuts all the way through to the surface along with a bunch of specks.
It's hard to see but there is more of that brown color showing on the surface of the bbw in those scratches. And there are tiny yellow specks suspended in the blue just like the tiny blue bits suspended in the yellow. Right now they are most pronounced on the left end, but it changes as I use the stone and lap it. I like the blue side for putting the final polish on my bbq hatchet. Very fast for bbw. Probably those extra yellow bits.
It's hard to see but there is more of that brown color showing on the surface of the bbw in those scratches. And there are tiny yellow specks suspended in the blue just like the tiny blue bits suspended in the yellow. Right now they are most pronounced on the left end, but it changes as I use the stone and lap it. I like the blue side for putting the final polish on my bbq hatchet. Very fast for bbw. Probably those extra yellow bits.
Yeah it doesn't look like any pics I can find either. I tried it quickly a couple of times, and wasn't that impressed tbh. I might give it another proper go later before giving up on it though. It does have some yellow bits in it, and obviously Blue+Yellow = Green. But it didn't seem to act much like coticule or bbw from my first impressions.
(I know BBWs aren't usually particularly blue though, so the above is likely coincidence.)
