Dilema ( need insight)

[Louich]

Hi guys 2nd post and I am already bothering with the classic question!


Ok seriously, I am no professional just an excessive in everything I do/love and boy do I love cooking and, while I have a capable Santoku, I am looking to expand the kinfe crew.

LOCATION
Canada

KNIFE TYPE

I have an opportunity to grab a new slicer type knife. I have been wanting a Konosuke for a while and I have a choice make:

Choice no 1 : 270mm Sakimaru blue 1 damascus

Choice No 2 : 300mm Fujiyama Yanagiba blue 1


Both would come with a kihi ebony handle.

KNIFE USE
Home use, maily meat and fish slicing an veggie (non reactive) cutting

Usually I pinch grip my knives


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
My cutting boards are all wood and I do sharpen my knive ( I will be buying a coarse stone and a fine grit one also in the next weeks.

 

[bkultra]

Welcome to the forums

 

[foody518]

Have you sharpened a single beveled knife before?

 

[StonedEdge]

If the meat you plan on cutting will be cooked and crusty, and and if you plan on making a lot of board contact while cutting your veggies stay away from the yanagiba.

 

[Louich]

@ Foodie

Nop but I want to learn !

Other than have one bevel and having to sharpen differently (flat first then the bevel) is there something I missed?

 

[Louich]

@stone edge

Mostly raw meat cutting ( capraccio, gravlax,etc) and I read and saw a lot of cutting technique for the Yanagi that seems more than ok with me. For the Board abuse I would switch to my Santoku.

 

[foody518]

I'd recommend buying from someone who can work out the high and low spots on the beveled side before sending to you, or sending it off to such a sharpener first (who has experience doing this). And to watch Jon at JapaneseKnifeImports Youtube videos on single bevel sharpening. And to not go nuts on price with the first single bevel knife purchase

 

[Panamapeet]

I would recommend buying a sujihiki and not a yanagiba though, they are made for slicing meats and can easily be used by a home cook to slice raw fish. And much much easier to sharpen

 

[StonedEdge]

Sounds like the OP has answered all of his own questions.

I 2nd the sujihiki recommendation, much less of a learning curve to use and maintain, much more versatile in a home setting, cheaper to maintain from a stone perspective. Unless you're a sashimi nut and a self-proclaimed purist and REALLY want your thin fish slices to have that glistening, silky smooth texture on the sides (which a properly sharpened suji can also achieve).

That being said, you could also jump right into the deep end and get a yanagiba if it's a heck of a learning experience you're after....you'll be buying a whole new yanagiba in a year or two anyway

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

@Spipet you have all the guesswork about thinning angles though

 

[StonedEdge]

@ Foodie

Nop but I want to learn !

Other than have one bevel and having to sharpen differently (flat first then the bevel) is there something I missed?

Short answer would be: yes.

 

[Louich]

I'd recommend buying from someone who can work out the high and low spots on the beveled side before sending to you, or sending it off to such a sharpener first (who has experience doing this). And to watch Jon at JapaneseKnifeImports Youtube videos on single bevel sharpening. And to not go nuts on price with the first single bevel knife purchase

Yes I will ask for the seller ( who is a very good sharpener) to send it correctly (or since it shipped from Konosuke maybe the sharperner already has done this)

I am always looking for some new stuff to learn and I will follow Jon for sure !

 

[Louich]

Sounds like the OP has answered all of his own questions.

I 2nd the sujihiki recommendation, much less of a learning curve to use and maintain, much more versatile in a home setting, cheaper to maintain from a stone perspective. Unless you're a sashimi nut and a self-proclaimed purist and REALLY want your thin fish slices to have that glistening, silky smooth texture on the sides (which a properly sharpened suji can also achieve).

That being said, you could also jump right into the deep end and get a yanagiba if it's a heck of a learning experience you're after....you'll be buying a whole new yanagiba in a year or two anyway

I know they are 'different' from a suji, what do you mean by heck of a learning experience ? I read that comment a lot but it is never explained. Why do you say I'll be buying a new yanagiba in a year ? ( because I'll sharpen it incorrectly and make it useless? )

I mean, ok I missed a thing since you mentioned it what what would they be ?


Thanks for you input it is appreciated BTW

 

[WildBoar]

Sharpening a yanigiba is a bit more challenging then sharpening a suji, plus the edge is a bit more delicate so not as suitable for cutting cook meats or making much board contact.

From the sharpening end of things, most single bevels need a bit of work when they are brand new to correct some of the forging issues.

 

[StonedEdge]

This probably belongs in a different thread and i will try to be as breif and concise as possible with my answer.

A suji is a double beveled knife and standard sharpening/thinning principles apply to it in terms of maintenance. If you can sharpen your santoku well you can sharpen your suji well. Thus, the kit you use to maintain that knife will also translate decently into a suji maintenance kit (not saying you need different stones for different knives, more on this in a minute).

Actual sharpening/polishing techniques​ aside, the yanagiba is a totally different animal; concave ura, clamshell (hamaguriba) shaped wide bevel. To maintain the ura side you need a very high grit polishing stone, not a low or medium "sharpening" stone (this distinction is entirely semantic as technically they are all just abrasive stones in one way or another). To maintain the cutting edge (note: not the blade road/blade face of the wide bevel) you can use anything from say, 1k to infinity (and beyond!) Depending on your personal preferences.

Shaping (not sharpening) the wide blade face is where extra gear and experience comes in. To be able to move the shinogi line up evenly as you wear through the knife from use and subsequent sharpening, being able to identify and fix low and high spots for cosmetic ans practical reasons, having the presence of mind to not touch the ura too much, having the experience to deal with the tip of a yanagiba while conserving the original shape is all important and something only hands on experience will give you.

The things mentioned above come with time...and a little money.

In addition, the yanagiba is a true single bevel knife and as such should not be used as a double edge slicer. Most first time yanagiba users experience edges rolling, small chips, sharpness fading extremely fast and other detriments to the knife's slicing ability and end up concluding that the steel is soft or the edge too thin. These are just byproducts of not using the tool correct tool for the correct job.

As you experiment with your yanagiba you will undoubtedly use it for some things other than slicing raw, boneless fish flesh. By doing so you will discover two things: the limits of this type of blade geometry, and the limits of your abilities to maintain the desired edge shape as you take layers of metal off. The former is rather finite while the latter is virtually unconstrained.

By using it for other things you will be aging the knife faster, but gaining experience in the stones as well. What I meant by "you'll be buying another one inna few years" is that your first yanagiba will undoubtedly see some abuse. After you've become very well aquainted with that knife you will have a more thorough understanding of it and you'll tell yourself "now I get it", and you'll be mindful of all the things you would've done differently had you had that knowledge the day you bought your first yanagiba.

 

[Louich]

This probably belongs in a different thread and i will try to be as breif and concise as possible with my answer.

A suji is a double beveled knife and standard sharpening/thinning principles apply to it in terms of maintenance. If you can sharpen your santoku well you can sharpen your suji well. Thus, the kit you use to maintain that knife will also translate decently into a suji maintenance kit (not saying you need different stones for different knives, more on this in a minute).

Actual sharpening/polishing techniques​ aside, the yanagiba is a totally different animal; concave ura, clamshell (hamaguriba) shaped wide bevel. To maintain the ura side you need a very high grit polishing stone, not a low or medium "sharpening" stone (this distinction is entirely semantic as technically they are all just abrasive stones in one way or another). To maintain the cutting edge (note: not the blade road/blade face of the wide bevel) you can use anything from say, 1k to infinity (and beyond!) Depending on your personal preferences.

Shaping (not sharpening) the wide blade face is where extra gear and experience comes in. To be able to move the shinogi line up evenly as you wear through the knife from use and subsequent sharpening, being able to identify and fix low and high spots for cosmetic ans practical reasons, having the presence of mind to not touch the ura too much, having the experience to deal with the tip of a yanagiba while conserving the original shape is all important and something only hands on experience will give you.

The things mentioned above come with time...and a little money.

In addition, the yanagiba is a true single bevel knife and as such should not be used as a double edge slicer. Most first time yanagiba users experience edges rolling, small chips, sharpness fading extremely fast and other detriments to the knife's slicing ability and end up concluding that the steel is soft or the edge too thin. These are just byproducts of not using the tool correct tool for the correct job.

As you experiment with your yanagiba you will undoubtedly use it for some things other than slicing raw, boneless fish flesh. By doing so you will discover two things: the limits of this type of blade geometry, and the limits of your abilities to maintain the desired edge shape as you take layers of metal off. The former is rather finite while the latter is virtually unconstrained.

By using it for other things you will be aging the knife faster, but gaining experience in the stones as well. What I meant by "you'll be buying another one inna few years" is that your first yanagiba will undoubtedly see some abuse. After you've become very well aquainted with that knife you will have a more thorough understanding of it and you'll tell yourself "now I get it", and you'll be mindful of all the things you would've done differently had you had that knowledge the day you bought your first yanagiba.

Awesome answer ! Thanks.

 

[StonedEdge]

Sorry about the lengthy response! If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

In the spirit of full disclosure: I too went through this dillema some time ago. We love making sushi and sashimi in our home and destroying beautiful (and expensive) tuna loin with a less than ideal slicer was annoying me. Against common sense (at that point my closest knife to a true single bevel was a honesuki so I really didn't know what I was getting myself into) I picked up a yanagiba from Jon & co at JKI (he's awesome, btw). The learning curve was steep but were I to do it over again I would definitely pick up another yanagiba even if having zero prior experience with such a tool. Since that decision I have added about 4 stones to the kit and read/watched I think every article and YT vid out there...I also started asking local sushi chefs a lot about their yanagibas.

Either way you will have a sweet new knife and a ton of fun.

 

[LucasFur]

Everybody seems to say you need to learn. *I have no experience with single bevel knives.*
So, if i were to learn, i would want still to learn on a hand made knife that was well made and cheap(er) and these are hand made from my understanding but look to me have great value. At $76-$96 seems like a good learning tool. mess up the bevels and purchase your fujiyama as a back up when the MINONOKUNI gets ruined. Have a good journey.

 

[StonedEdge]

The trick is to find a balance between price and quality as learning on a twisted blade, or a blade full of high or low spots, or with an uneven ura can lead to descent into madness as you start questioning whether it's you or the knife that ruining everything

 

[Louich]

Sorry about the lengthy response! If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

In the spirit of full disclosure: I too went through this dillema some time ago. We love making sushi and sashimi in our home and destroying beautiful (and expensive) tuna loin with a less than ideal slicer was annoying me. Against common sense (at that point my closest knife to a true single bevel was a honesuki so I really didn't know what I was getting myself into) I picked up a yanagiba from Jon & co at JKI (he's awesome, btw). The learning curve was steep but were I to do it over again I would definitely pick up another yanagiba even if having zero prior experience with such a tool. Since that decision I have added about 4 stones to the kit and read/watched I think every article and YT vid out there...I also started asking local sushi chefs a lot about their yanagibas.

Either way you will have a sweet new knife and a ton of fun.

Thanks for the precision, I understand the comments and the thing you wanted to make me understand.

Everybody seems to say you need to learn. *I have no experience with single bevel knives.*
So, if i were to learn, i would want still to learn on a hand made knife that was well made and cheap(er) and these are hand made from my understanding but look to me have great value. At $76-$96 seems like a good learning tool. mess up the bevels and purchase your fujiyama as a back up when the MINONOKUNI gets ruined. Have a good journey.

That seems to be a more and more likely plan, since I may not have the chance to actuellay grab an other of these soon I'll buy on and buy a cheaper on to perfect my skills. When I'll need to sharpen the Konosuke I'll send ti to a professional guy to sharpen and go all in on a cheaper Yanagi to get better.

 

[Louich]

So that said you guys grab the sakimaru or the traditional yanagi?

 

[foody518]

With that kind of knife, one approach that seems to be popular is that maintenance on it is usually done as quick touchups with finer stones after use. Not something to be worn down to a point of dullness then sent off to a professional every x months

Keeping stones quite flat is much more important here than with double beveled knives where you can deal with some level of dishing and it doesn't mess up your profile or geometry too much

 

[LucasFur]

sorry i didnt show the knife i was talking about that would be great to learn on for the >$100 mark... https://www.knifemerchant.com/products.asp?productLine=1097
they also have white steels and blue steels if your interested. you can then do a white steel if your going to buy a blue expensive one.

*in the second video I'll Post at around the 10:30 mark he talks about the knife a little.

Thanks for the precision, I understand the comments and the thing you wanted to make me understand.

 

[LucasFur]

[video=youtube;VcLWqt93W2Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glv104HvIKk [/video]
[video=youtube;Glv104HvIKk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcLWqt93W2Y [/video]

 

[malexthekid]

This probably belongs in a different thread and i will try to be as breif and concise as possible with my answer.

A suji is a double beveled knife and standard sharpening/thinning principles apply to it in terms of maintenance. If you can sharpen your santoku well you can sharpen your suji well. Thus, the kit you use to maintain that knife will also translate decently into a suji maintenance kit (not saying you need different stones for different knives, more on this in a minute).

Actual sharpening/polishing techniques​ aside, the yanagiba is a totally different animal; concave ura, clamshell (hamaguriba) shaped wide bevel. To maintain the ura side you need a very high grit polishing stone, not a low or medium "sharpening" stone (this distinction is entirely semantic as technically they are all just abrasive stones in one way or another). To maintain the cutting edge (note: not the blade road/blade face of the wide bevel) you can use anything from say, 1k to infinity (and beyond!) Depending on your personal preferences.

Shaping (not sharpening) the wide blade face is where extra gear and experience comes in. To be able to move the shinogi line up evenly as you wear through the knife from use and subsequent sharpening, being able to identify and fix low and high spots for cosmetic ans practical reasons, having the presence of mind to not touch the ura too much, having the experience to deal with the tip of a yanagiba while conserving the original shape is all important and something only hands on experience will give you.

The things mentioned above come with time...and a little money.

In addition, the yanagiba is a true single bevel knife and as such should not be used as a double edge slicer. Most first time yanagiba users experience edges rolling, small chips, sharpness fading extremely fast and other detriments to the knife's slicing ability and end up concluding that the steel is soft or the edge too thin. These are just byproducts of not using the tool correct tool for the correct job.

As you experiment with your yanagiba you will undoubtedly use it for some things other than slicing raw, boneless fish flesh. By doing so you will discover two things: the limits of this type of blade geometry, and the limits of your abilities to maintain the desired edge shape as you take layers of metal off. The former is rather finite while the latter is virtually unconstrained.

By using it for other things you will be aging the knife faster, but gaining experience in the stones as well. What I meant by "you'll be buying another one inna few years" is that your first yanagiba will undoubtedly see some abuse. After you've become very well aquainted with that knife you will have a more thorough understanding of it and you'll tell yourself "now I get it", and you'll be mindful of all the things you would've done differently had you had that knowledge the day you bought your first yanagiba.

Sorry but I am calling BS on most of this.

Yes yanagi's were created to slice raw protein (predominantly fish). However they are a slicer and can be used as such, within the physical construct. Slicing raw beef will in no way effect the knife. You may have issues with hard crusts on cooked meats due to the fragility of the ultra fine edge.

But that also comes from your choice of blade. Jon has recommended his Gesshin Stainless to me as an all purpose slicer given the HT is on the more durable side. And also stated he users it as a slicer in his store.

You can't buy a yanagi and think it will perform like a suji. But also if you want one there is no reason you can't get one and use it in a similar fashion by paying attention to the limitations.

 

[dafox]

Everybody seems to say you need to learn. *I have no experience with single bevel knives.*
So, if i were to learn, i would want still to learn on a hand made knife that was well made and cheap(er) and these are hand made from my understanding but look to me have great value. At $76-$96 seems like a good learning tool. mess up the bevels and purchase your fujiyama as a back up when the MINONOKUNI gets ruined. Have a good journey.

What did you think of the Minonokuni?