Do I need a whetstone and if so, which one [AUS]

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spyne

spyne

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Long story cut short - I've lived with a set of Mundial knives (CroMo steel) for 12 years and in that time have used two guided systems to sharpen - a cheap EdgePro Apex knock-off and more recently a nice Hapstone M2 system. For both, I was using genuine Edge Pro stones (400 & 1000 grit) exactly like these ones;
https://www.edgeproinc.com/sharpeni...s/1000-grit-mounted-sharpening-stone-p17.html

All well and good.
I've now got a nice j-knife from JCK, which is stainless-clad AS steel - this one https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/jck-natures-deep-impact-series-gyuto-180mm-to-240mm-3-sizes

I've only had it a couple of weeks and it definitely doesn't need a touch-up yet, but when it does I'm unsure if the Hapstone system will be OK, or if I need a dedicated whetstone.
And if I do, which one if limited to a ~$ 100AUD budget?

For reference, $100AUD would get me a Suehiro/Cerax CR3800 (1000&3000 combo stone) or a King Hyper 1000 or Shapton Pro 1000.

Looking for any and all advise & recommendations (if a new stone is a must).
 
Im not super experienced with all the other stones but as a person who has used the, "Suehiro/Cerax CR3800" a ton I can say that I enjoy using it and can say that for me its a really nice stone. The 1000 cuts at a decent speed and gives nice feedback, the 3000 can polish to a near mirror polish and both don't wear down fast from my experience.

This is just my opinion and I haven't tried the others. Wish you luck on making the best choice for yourself! \(^o^)/

P.s. The base for it is super nice if you dont have one yourself.
 
Can't speak to the Suehiro combo or the King Hyper though the latter has its fans. However the Shapton 1k is a great stone. So good, I bought a second one to keep in the kitchen. There's enough change from $100 AUD you for to start thinking about your second stone. :rolleyes:
 
A note about the Shapton is that its a very hard stone and wont dish easily so woodworkers or people that need a flat stone really love it. The one issue that may arise is people say its more on the level of a 800 grit stone then a 1000 grit stone.

I would maybe suggest you buy one stone at a time since you already have whetstones that work. Maybe a polishing stone would be a great buy here, but I'd wait for someone more experienced then I to give you some tips, since I dont really know the quality of your current stones :D
 
King Hyper 1000 (hard) ist a great stone. Cuts fast, good feedback, very good results. A really good choice for the first stone.
 
You do not need a whetstone. That knife has a 50/50 bevel and your existing sharpeners will work just fine. In fact, they will do a better job because you already know how to use them, rather than starting on a new system and a new method.

If want to learn to use whetstones and freehand sharpening, go for it, otherwise, save the money. All sharpeners to the same job.
 
Yes, you need a stone.

EP and similar guided systems can give a consistent edge angle but they cannot maintain the geometry of the knife as you sharpen. The geometry is where all of the cutting magic happens. The edge is just what starts the magic off.
 
Nemo said:
Yes, you need a stone.

EP and similar guided systems can give a consistent edge angle but they cannot maintain the geometry of the knife as you sharpen. The geometry is where all of the cutting magic happens. The edge is just what starts the magic off.
Click to expand...

If the knife is only being used 3-4 times a week for light duties, realistically how long before it's going to need reprofiling/thinning?
And why can't an EP system do this?

(is reprofiling/thinning what you are talking about with "maintaining the geometry"?)
 
spyne said:
If the knife is only being used 3-4 times a week for light duties, realistically how long before it's going to need reprofiling/thinning?
And why can't an EP system do this?

(is reprofiling/thinning what you are talking about with "maintaining the geometry"?)
Click to expand...
Reprofiling and thinning are two very different things.

Thinning is where you remove metal behind the edge to maintain (or improve) thinness behind the edge. I tend to perform a light thinning every time I sharpen on a medium stone or coarser. Some would contend that this should be a normal part of sharpening and in this context, I guess you could call it "maintaining the geometry". It certainly reduces the need for a big thinning job down the track.

I would say that if I only had one knife which was well heat treated Aogami super, I'd probably be sharpening on a medium stone (therefore thinning) maybe once every 1-2 months. I am a home cook but I do go out of my way to use my knives wherever opportunity presents.

Reprofiling is where you adjust the profile of the knife, then remove metal to try to restore the knife's original geometry. This is a big job that's harder to get right. Much easier to buy a new knife that you already like the profile of. I'd probably get the hang of thinning before considering this.

An Edgepro has a minimum angle (my Apex was about 8-9 degrees IIRC) which is not acute enough for effective thinning. It struggles to maintain a convex geometry which is present on many high performing knives (and is responsible for said performance). It's a real pain to constantly adjust the angles where you are sharpening or thinning at different angles on each side of the knife. They do produce a crisp edge but so can you once you learn freehand sharpening. It's not as difficult or as intimidating to learn as it might seem (and indeed it did seem that way to me until I bit the bullet and tried it).
 
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spyne said:
Also, this is just confusing for a n00b like myself.
I also realise I forgot to mention (though probably obvious), I'm just a casual home cook.
Click to expand...

(Puts mod hat on)
Well, as you know, this is a forum- You can expect a range of ideas here. All I can suggest is that you consider the arguments and evidence used to support the various ideas to help you decide whether some of them help you understand the topic better.

(Takes mod hat off).
Lots of us here are home cooks. I should warn you that the more time you spend here, the less casual about it you will become. To be clear, this is a good thing.
 
On which stone to buy: This depends on many factors, which is why there is a "which stone should I buy" questionaire that you should paste into this thread and answer.
 
The longer you spend here the more you spend on the hobby >.>

I remember thinking I was only going to spend $100 AUD on a knife and thinking that was a lot, those were blissful ignorant days :D

Now Ive spent like $1200 so far and dont plan to slow down :D
 
Random said:
You do not need a whetstone. That knife has a 50/50 bevel and your existing sharpeners will work just fine. In fact, they will do a better job because you already know how to use them, rather than starting on a new system and a new method.

If want to learn to use whetstones and freehand sharpening, go for it, otherwise, save the money. All sharpeners to the same job.
Click to expand...
Ever handled one? These knives are strongly asymmetric. Have a look at the spine and see how much the core steel is off-centered to the left. Maintaining a symmetric edge on it is asking for serious troubles within a few sharpenings, as crazy steering and/or wedging. For sharpening, start at the lowest angle and raise the spine only little by little. Create a convex right bevel, ending somewhere between 10 and 15°. As for the left side, have a small straight bevel between 15 and 20° and see how that works for you.
As they are quite thin behind the edge they can take a rather conservative edge without performance loss.
For your first sharpening, use a marker and a loupe to make sure not to overlook a microbevel. I start with a coarse stone.
 
Benuser said:
Ever handled one? These knives are strongly asymmetric. Have a look at the spine and see how much the core steel is off-centered to the left. Maintaining a symmetric edge on it is asking for serious troubles within a few sharpenings, as crazy steering and/or wedging. For sharpening, start at the lowest angle and raise the spine only little by little. Create a convex right bevel, ending somewhere between 10 and 15°. As for the left side, have a small straight bevel between 15 and 20° and see how that works for you.
As they are quite thin behind the edge they can take a rather conservative edge without performance loss.
For your first sharpening, use a marker and a loupe to make sure not to overlook a microbevel. I start with a coarse stone.
Click to expand...

Hi Benuser, thanks for your input.
Details on the website state it is a 50/50 grind edge. To try and clear any confusion, I emailed Koki and asked about it - he confirms it is definitely 50/50 and sharpening should be done at equal angles both sides, equal strokes.
However, as you said above, looking at the spine you can clearly see the core steel is off-centered to the left.
 
spyne said:
Hi Benuser, thanks for your input.
Details on the website state it is a 50/50 grind edge. To try and clear any confusion, I emailed Koki and asked about it - he confirms it is definitely 50/50 and sharpening should be done at equal angles both sides, equal strokes.
However, as you said above, looking at the spine you can clearly see the core steel is off-centered to the left.
Click to expand...
I own different ones from this series and their strong asymmetry is obvious, with a flat left face and a fat right one, and an off-centered core to the left. On the right face, you best follow the face's convexity. On the left one, you do what's needed to temper the steering as much as you need.
It is indeed possible to maintain a symmetric edge on it for while as it is quite thin behind the edge, but it will underperform and cause serious issues after a few sharpenings.
It is asymmetric as most Japanese knives but ignoring it is commercially far more attractive.
 
Benuser said:
I own different ones from this series and their strong asymmetry is obvious, with a flat left face and a fat right one, and an off-centered core to the left. On the right face, you best follow the face's convexity. On the left one, you do what's needed to temper the steering as much as you need.
It is indeed possible to maintain a symmetric edge on it for while as it is quite thin behind the edge, but it will underperform and cause serious issues after a few sharpenings.
It is asymmetric as most Japanese knives but ignoring it is commercially far more attractive.
Click to expand...

That's extremely disappointing to learn. One of the reasons I purchased this knife was for the 50/50 and ease of maintenance.
I would much rather have spent my $250 elsewhere had I known :(
 
What kind of maintenance did you have in mind? These knives are to be sharpened on waterstones, and sharpening an asymmetric stone isn't so much harder than a symmetric one, unless you want to use a jig system, of course.
 
Well yes, I have a guided system, so symmetry makes it much easier to use.
I don't have a whetstone. Yet.
 
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I don't know if you have a reliable stone sharpener in your neighbourhood, but first thing to do is having a good first edge on it, that may serve you as a reference for your own sharpening. Factory edges are in the best case a service to the end user: there is an edge. But the customer is expected to put his own on it. Those factory edges get minimal attention: weak and unpredictable. Best get rid of it as soon as possible.
 
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Hello and sorry for my english,
I have a lots of stones (see picture), China Edge Pro Sytem with original Edg Pro Stones (120-1000 + all polish bands), Spyderco Sharpmaker and a Tormek T-8 etc ..... .
If you have a straight profile knife like a Nakiri or Santoku the Edge Pro System is the absolut best system. For your Gyuto is a normal japanese Whetstone the best option. If you have no experince with whetstones, do a lot of practice before sharpen your beautiful new Gyuto knife. You can ruin your knife very very fast with no experience.
The Edge Pro is also a good system for your knife but tape the blade first. The only disadvantage of the Edge Pro system is that you will get a minimal angle error in the area of the tip.
If you are not 100% sure witch of the both systems is the best for you take the Edge Pro System. Its more save. You can collect whetstone sharpening experinces with a cheap knife first.

Good whetstones for you are:

-Suehiro Cerax 1000 (my favourite stone of all stones. Cheap and very very nice)
-Suehiro 3000 (don´t tested it)
-Suehiro Rika 5000 for finishing
-Naniwa Chosera (800, 1000, 3000)

you only need two stones for beginning. If you like buy a single bevel knife in future, dont buy combi stones and stones with a base. I hate the factory bases and always remove them.
 
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For others, here is a photo showing how the core steel is very off-set to the left

2OYcINB.jpg
 
Which side is left and which is rigt on a knife ?
 
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