Espresso nerds in the house?

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mockit said:
@Lars

That is a tricky one IMO. I have worked in a few different service models. My preferred model is one where the barista is not interacting with the customer.
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This is the worst imo. As a customer I want to interact with my barista. I want to let him know how I want my coffee and if I'm enjoying it.
 
I stumbled across a used Titus recently....and could refrain...
 
Lars said:
This is the worst imo. As a customer I want to interact with my barista. I want to let him know how I want my coffee and if I'm enjoying it.
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I beg to differ, the Charbucks model was a novelty invented to create the illusion of control for us non Italians....IMO it would be the same as talking to a Pizzaiolo about how you want your pizza stretched or requesting a certain method of sushi technique at Yoshitake in Tokyo....you ought (!) to be able to trust the barista to know wat they are doing by just asking for the type of beverage you'd like
 
MarcelNL said:
it's hardly ever the water, even some standard fairly cheap commercial Italian blend can produce decent espresso...the machine matters little, te grinder does but the training and EXPERIENCE of the barista is key...

the Italian model works, pay at the counter and put your token on the bar where a barista will take care of you....barista is a skill, like carpentry, waiting tables etc...in our modern world it has become 'the interchangeable person making espresso drinks'
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No regular Italian blend will ever make really good espresso. I can tolerate up to 15% robusta in a cappuccino, but no way in a straight shot.
 
MarcelNL said:
I beg to differ, the Charbucks model was a novelty invented to create the illusion of control for us non Italians....IMO it would be the same as talking to a Pizzaiolo about how you want your pizza stretched or requesting a certain method of sushi technique at Yoshitake in Tokyo....you ought (!) to be able to trust the barista to know wat they are doing by just asking for the type of beverage you'd like
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I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about 🤷‍♂️
 
Lars said:
No regular Italian blend will ever make really good espresso. I can tolerate up to 15% robusta in a cappuccino, but no way in a straight shot.
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I agree, hence the use of the word 'decent'....

I've had roadside espresso in Italy, where the 'barista'was not doing any tamping or anything but just churning out espresso's on a 4 group machine that fully utilized that was miles ahead of the acidic water served in a 'posh' place where I live, using a Kees Van der Westen Lever .... I offered to pull the next shot after dialing in the setup myself but they declined....
 
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mockit said:
@Lars

That is a tricky one IMO. I have worked in a few different service models. My preferred model is one where the barista is not primarily responsible for anything except the coffee. Hands down. Let the barista focus on being a barista. Let a cashier or someone front of house focus on providing an experience. This requires a cashier who can talk about coffee and does not mean the barista should be head/eyes down. I also prefer this as a customer if the above conditions are met. I think customer service and flow are what make a cafe good though :). Lots of places with bad coffee are still good cafes. Finding good coffee at a random spot is kind of an unreasonable expectation for me at this point lol.

@jedy617

Dialing in is 90% of the ballgame on any machine and 90% of professional baristas in specialty coffee do not or cannot do it properly. Dialing in strictly by numbers (including TDS) or sight is not dialing in. It is not rocket science, but it requires knowing what you are tasting and making an intentional adjustment to correct it. Doing this properly and efficiently is not easy. If it was, 90% of specialty coffee would not suck.
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I think dialing in at home takes a little bit of patience for the first week or so, but with a good machine and good grinder, as long as you are dealing with coffees you have experience with, it's pretty straightforward in my opinion after you get the hang of it. I know the temperature I like to brew at, my preinfusion pressure and time, and I have a set range of grind adjustment based on the age of my beans. Besides adjusting the grinder slightly depending on age of my beans I have not touched a setting in years. It is helpful having a machine with a heated grouphead, and having control of pre-infusion along with a PID though.

However, at most coffee shops I do frequent from time to time, they do have extremely expensive machines like La marzoccos and Mahlkoenig grinders for example, but the people running them definitely don't seem to care for the most part and pull quite watery shots. I bet the owners of the shops are quite enthusiastic and care about getting good coffee out there, but sometimes that's just lost on a barista and they don't put forward the effort to get good results. This is definitely not the case all the time, just something I see frequently around me, along with teens working the machines who have no idea what they are doing lol. It's just a lack of caring for the most part.
 
Lars said:
This is the worst imo. As a customer I want to interact with my barista. I want to let him know how I want my coffee and if I'm enjoying it.
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Interesting! I totally get that. I do think it is important to be able to interact with them. I just don't think it should be their primary role. I worked behind a busy bar where the barista, behind a modbar, was the first point of contact. We took orders, gave customers drinks, and then a cashier rang them up down the line. It's like a Chipotle or a burrito bar in the US. It was hell :).

100% agree with @MarcelNL. The customer is not always right and they don't always know what they want... even if they think they do.
 
Lars said:
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about 🤷‍♂️
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starbucks invented the gazillion options for an espresso based drink..or at least the capitalized on it....
I do not want to have to tell the chef in a restaurant how I like a 12 prep step dish, I order what I fancy and want to be wowed by the craftsmanship in execution

I LOVE restaurants that have the balls to tell their customers to F Off if they want to tweak what they are doing ;-)
 
On a side note; I recently asked someone what type coffee he'd like...standing behind my machine....the answer was 'a mild coffee with body but not too much of it', where my question was pointed at the type of drink although I usually have 3-4 different coffees 'on tap'...I was thinking; espresso, ristretto, cappucino (though it was WAY too late for that) , ristretto macchiate etc..... communication between a barista and customer probably is difficult....
 
MarcelNL said:
starbucks invented the gazillion options for an espresso based drink..or at least the capitalized on it....
I do not want to have to tell the chef in a restaurant how I like a 12 prep step dish, I order what I fancy and want to be wowed by the craftsmanship in execution

I LOVE restaurants that have the balls to tell their customers to F Off if they want to tweak what they are doing ;-)
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So in the end, you prefer the “plonk mostly served as espresso”?
 
Lars said:
So in the end, you prefer the “plonk mostly served as espresso”?
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nope, even if that is what you may think it means I vote with my feet...the shops serving plonk as espresso never see repeat business whereas I'd happily accept the robusta heavy double espresso the lady at the Italian roadside coffee shop served me again and again...or the double ristretto the barista in the naples hospital bar made...a really sloooooooow pull on a machine probably his age...

edit; just asking for a double ristretto makes most 'current' 'barista's' zone out...'a what', my usual response is an 'O, never mind, bye'
 
MarcelNL said:
nope, even if that is what you may think it means I vote with my feet...the shops serving plonk as espresso never see repeat business whereas I'd happily accept the robusta heavy double espresso the lady at the Italian roadside coffee shop served me again and again...or the double ristretto the barista in the naples hospital bar made...a really sloooooooow pull on a machine probably his age...
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I shall refer from comparing dicks and simply wish you a good night!
 
@Lars maybe you missed Marcel's point? I think he was just saying that a lower-quality product treated with care and expertise is often better than a higher-quality product treated poorly. I tend to agree with Marcel. I would rather have a dark roast ristretto done reasonably well than a 90pt Kenya single-O that is poorly extracted. Battery acid shots or just thin, anemic, over-extracted shots are miserable and not at all uncommon.
 
mockit said:
@Lars maybe you missed Marcel's point? I think he was just saying that a lower-quality product treated with care and expertise is often better than a higher-quality product treated poorly. I tend to agree with Marcel. I would rather have a dark roast ristretto done reasonably well than a 90pt Kenya single-O that is under-extracted AF.
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I just said that making good espresso is easy, Marcel disagreed and here we are…
 
Apologies for derailing an equipment showoff thread btw. I am not trying to mystify espresso or give the impression it is too complex for the layperson to do well. I actually think that a reasonable palette for coffee can be learned pretty quickly with a smidge of comparison and guidance. Espresso is more often underestimated though.
 
mockit said:
Lars, if you make coffee like you cook, perhaps it is easy for you lol :).
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Thanks, I just had good training. I didn't even know it, when I walked in to my local and showed interest 15 years ago. But they loved it and guided me. I had no idea they were competative I just loved the coffee and the wibe. Ended up going pretty deep and making friends. Hosting jams at home and even made a fool of myself at the Danish cup tasting championships once…
 
the major difference is training, and understanding what makes espresso tick. once you understand tht it is not difficult, the problem is that too many shops do not care (enough) to educate their staff appropriately
 
mockit said:
My favorite thing about coffee, much like the culinary world, is the passionate people behind it. Sounds like you've done a thing or two Lars ;).
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My least and most embarressing things…

Having the reigning Danish barista champ - and his coach! Over for a jam and having them pull shots and make drinks all night without my setup crapping out. As a nerd, is didn't suck!

Forgetting to blow my nose before the cup tasting champignonship, with Casper Engel Rasmussen in the front row and seeing him being interwieved and making jokes about it afterwards..
 
That is hilarious lol. I had to look up Rasmussen. The name was not familiar until I saw he owned Coffee Collective. I have had coffee from CC and La Cabra. Both are excellent. I have never competed, but I was part of the roasting team for 3 competitors in the USBC. One qualified for the main stage. My experience as a head roaster / director of coffee came after the competitions and was short-lived because I graduated from nursing school. The only thing that has stopped me from getting a Q certification is the money. As someone who no longer works in the industry, it is hard to justify for the sake of ego. Maybe one day :).
 
Competitive cupping is nuts. For us mere mortals - check out Populace Coffee's Flight of Fancy competition. It has been a while since I participated, but they do an awesome coffee tasting competition with huge prizes like an LM Mini. One year, we were the second fastest correct submission. Mere minutes!! Ugh.
 
I’m curious as to what your go-to tools of the trade are.

Knowing what you know now, If you were to start all over again from scratch, what would be on your must have a list of tools?

I have a knock box, an adjustable distributor/tamper, and a bottomless porta filter.

For single dosing, I know I’m going to need a good scale, but any recommendations on the other things like: a WDT, Force Tamper, etc. would be greatly appreciated!

Also I’m now leaning towards the Niche Duo for a grinder.. 😉👍
 
WDT tool is nice but not needed imo, I put a magnetic dosing funnel on my portafilter and usually swirl it around and its pretty distributed/clump free. Force tamper isn't really needed, James Hoffman showed in a video there isn't really such thing as too much pressure tamping, so just give it a good press.
 
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