Espresso nerds in the house?

[dragjp]

On the other hand, maybe consider adding RDT into your workflow as it helps lower the retention and keep your gear/counter clean.

 

[ehhh]

Having gone through so many accessories here's what I use in my daily workflow and don't see any reason to upgrade any of it. All together cost more than my machine, but buy once cry once...

Acaia Lunar Scale
Pullman Big Step Tamper
Decent Espresso Funnel
Levercraft WDT tool - has the perfect pin thickness that isn't too thick, yet isn't too thin and flexible like some others I've used.
Cocktail spray/atomizer bottle for RDT
VST Ridgeless Baskets
Blind basket for plain water backflush after every session
Bottomless portafilter helps with visual feedback
Pitchers are personal taste, but I like my Motta 8.5oz and Cafelat 10oz pitchers the most
Counter brush & Pallo grouphead brush
I use one of those Chinese take-out tall plastic containers as my knockbox so I can cover it to keep the smell in

I have a couple, but never saw any benefit to the wedge type distribution tools. It looks neat, but adds an extra step and made no difference in the cup. If anything it's another step that can introduce error or variation.

 

[Dakota Day Trader]

On the other hand, maybe consider adding RDT into your workflow as it helps lower the retention and keep your gear/counter clean.

What is an RDT?

 

[WPerry]

This is the worst imo. As a customer I want to interact with my barista. I want to let him know how I want my coffee and if I'm enjoying it.

I'm trying to imagine how this goes down. Are you telling the barista, "you know, think that I'd really like this pre-infused for 10 seconds and then pulled at a 1:2.5 ratio... Oh, and what's the grouphead temp currently set at?"

 

[WPerry]

What is an RDT?

A spritz of water on the beans before grinding.

 

[mengwong]

James Hoffman showed in a video there isn't really such thing as too much pressure tamping, so just give it a good press.

I’ll have to find that video … if there isn’t too much, by the same logic, maybe there isn’t too little?

I’ve always wondered why the “third wave” textbooks insist on a precise number of pounds of pressure, enough to hurt your shoulder if the ergonomics aren’t right — meanwhile the high-volume €1 Italian cafes give a fleeting nudge against the little round of plastic mounted to the front of the grinder, using the weight of a wet piece of paper, and it comes out well enough. How does that work? The grind seems calibrated so the sweet spot is huge and the Mazzer+LaMarzocco combo just produces super consistent results. Not the thicc-body championship-winning flavour monsters you need to eat with a spoon, but a recognizable extraction that serves millions of standing Italians every day who don’t know and don’t care that the basket never gets rinsed between the knockbox and the doser.

 

[WPerry]

I’m curious as to what your go-to tools of the trade are.

Knowing what you know now, If you were to start all over again from scratch, what would be on your must have a list of tools?

I have a knock box, an adjustable distributor/tamper, and a bottomless porta filter.

For single dosing, I know I’m going to need a good scale, but any recommendations on the other things like: a WDT, Force Tamper, etc. would be greatly appreciated!

Also I’m now leaning towards the Niche Duo for a grinder..

Everyone has different equipment and workflow - it may take some time to find out what works for you. For me, WDT and a scale (for both measuring the dose and the output) have been the biggest, bestest low-hanging fruit.

My work flow is:

Measure out doses the night before - I don't want to mess with that when uncaffeinated. I have some little spice mason jars from Crate & Barrel that I really like - https://www.crateandbarrel.com/oval-spice-herb-jar/s485454
I grind directly in to my portafilter, with funnel.
WDT - currently using a very fancy Prosecco cork with 4 acupuncture needles
Tamp (nothing fancy)
Pull
Froth
Clean up

 

[WPerry]

I’ll have to find that video … if there isn’t too much, by the same logic, maybe there isn’t too little?

No, IIRC the takeaway was, "there's no benefit/drawback to tamping harder; either you've tamped hard enough or you haven't"

 

[jedy617]

I’ll have to find that video … if there isn’t too much, by the same logic, maybe there isn’t too little?

I’ve always wondered why the “third wave” textbooks insist on a precise number of pounds of pressure, enough to hurt your shoulder if the ergonomics aren’t right — meanwhile the high-volume €1 Italian cafes give a fleeting tamp against the little round of plastic mounted to the front of the grinder, using the weight of a wet piece of paper, and it comes out well enough. How does that work? The grind seems calibrated so the sweet spot is huge and the Mazzer+LaMarzocco combo just produces super consistent results. Not the thicc-body championship-winning flavour monsters you need to eat with a spoon, but a recognizable extraction that serves millions of standing Italians every day who don’t know and don’t care that the basket never gets rinsed between the knockbox and the doser.

There is definitely too little. This is the video, check the timestamp. Just getting rid of the air, so you can do too little but not too much.

 

[jedy617]

No, IIRC the takeaway was, "there's no benefit/drawback to tamping harder; either you've tamped hard enough or you haven't"

exactly the quote haha nice

 

[Dakota Day Trader]

A spritz of water on the beans before grinding.

I’ll YouTube this later, but I’m guessing you measure a setting, then give it a spritz in that container and NOT the grinder, yes?

This thread has been incredibly helpful, albeit expensive. I can’t believe how much more there is to this craft, but I’m looking forward to all the fun the experiments and refining!

 

[dragjp]

I’ll YouTube this later, but I’m guessing you measure a setting, then give it a spritz in that container and NOT the grinder, yes?

This thread has been incredibly helpful, albeit expensive. I can’t believe how much more there is to this craft, but I’m looking forward to all the fun the experiments and refining!

yes spritz in the container above your scale when you weighing the beans. and enjoy down the looong road!

 

[WPerry]

I’ll YouTube this later, but I’m guessing you measure a setting, then give it a spritz in that container and NOT the grinder, yes?

This thread has been incredibly helpful, albeit expensive. I can’t believe how much more there is to this craft, but I’m looking forward to all the fun the experiments and refining!

Yeah, spray and shake before dumping the dose in the grinder. No need to worry about it until the time comes and you see if you need it/if it's helpful. Hoffmann will also dip the handle of an espresso spoon in water and stir the beans with it - not much water is necessary - so you don't *need* to have a little spray bottle on hand Day #1.

 

[MarcelNL]

RDT (Ross Droplet Technique) helps combat static, I don't use it since I'm using a mini hopper on the grinder as I hate the popcorning it does when single dosing but on dry days the static can be a real issue.

Third wave has always sounded a lot like nerd wave to me ;-) loads of voodo around coffee whereas things can be done in a pretty simple way and you still get great espresso once you get the true basics right. My advice is to start learning to dial in your machine and coffee by taste, by adjusting; bean dose, grind and then water temp using;

required; drug dealer precision scales
https://www.home-barista.com/tips/e...nd-grind-setting-by-taste-t16968.html#p199988
And go from there, once done and understood you'll know what additional tools you may need.
My workflow looks like @WPerry described, except I just fill the mini hopper (contains like 6 double shots worth of beans) , press the start button on the digital timer I McGyvered into the grinder and wait the 5 seconds it takes to grind a double, add the funnel and do some WDT (Weiss Distribution Technique; stirring to break clumps), pull a shot , steam while pulling, and clean afterwards.

 

[Bear]

I guess I'm slow (definitely not the best barista) but it took me a few years to get to where I'm really happy with my coffee. My biggest improvement came after I broke down and bought a good scale(acaia lunar). I did add a manual profiling valve and a good distribution tool, expensive yes but when I think about all the coffee I wasted maybe not.

 

[ethompson]

This thread has been incredibly helpful, albeit expensive. I can’t believe how much more there is to this craft, but I’m looking forward to all the fun the experiments and refining!

I'll regurgitate some advice I got when I got my first espresso setup last fall.

• Only use one bean to start, preferably a mid roast blend of some type - eliminating a huge variable right off the bat will accelerate your ability to adjust for bean age and dial into correct flavors
• Adjust for taste, not numbers. Pay attention to what is in the cup and don't worry about anything else. The guide @MarcelNL linked above is where I would have sent you.

Pulling shots better than you get at 99% of cafes should come relatively quickly. When you start trying to do the really funky light roasts is where you can burn through a lot of beans trying to get it dialed in as the window for success on these is much smaller.

 

[Corradobrit1]

If I can achieve this

using these and a 1zpresso hand grinder its definitely not difficult to get excellent results. It just takes practice and a little knowledge.

And yes they taste as good as they look.

The French Press life hack to get perfect microfoam on the go was a game changer. Thank you Youtube.

 

[MarcelNL]

most of all it's practice and knowledge indeed, the main issue at coffee shops is that their 'barista's' usually lack both...despite sometines serious gear they manage to ruin the product

 

[WPerry]

most of all it's practice and knowledge indeed, the main issue at coffee shops is that their 'barista's' usually lack both...despite sometines serious gear they manage to ruin the product

When I was on vacation, over the winter, I went to a café that had great reviews and I saw a gorgeous two-group lever machine upon walking through the door. My hopes immediately rose.

....and came crashing down when I received one of the worst lattes that I'd had in years (outside of desperation Starbucks stops on road trips).

 

[Corradobrit1]

WDT tool is nice but not needed imo, I put a magnetic dosing funnel on my portafilter and usually swirl it around and its pretty distributed/clump free. Force tamper isn't really needed, James Hoffman showed in a video there isn't really such thing as too much pressure tamping, so just give it a good press.

I don't agree there is no such thing as too much pressure. It all depends on the grind. Consistency is key. I use my finger tips for a consistent press without the risk of over tamping. Finer grinds require less tamping pressure.

 

[MarcelNL]

When I was on vacation, over the winter, I went to a café that had great reviews and I saw a gorgeous two-group lever machine upon walking through the door. My hopes immediately rose.

....and came crashing down when I received one of the worst lattes that I'd had in years (outside of desperation Starbucks stops on road trips).

you must have been where I was.... ;-)

here in town there are like 5 serious cafe's proudly presenting a relly high end Kees van der Westen lever or similar, none of them has a Barista worth their salt.

I travel with the Robot in my kit since a few years and usually refrain from coffee other than at home.

 

[jedy617]

I don't agree there is no such thing as too much pressure. It all depends on the grind. Consistency is key. I use my finger tips for a consistent press without the risk of over tamping. Finer grinds require less tamping pressure.

Is James wrong then? I'd assume to make a statement like that he would have to do a lot of testing. I don't know I think there isn't much to it. Just push down with a medium to hard pressure and you are done.

 

[WildBoar]

I am a home barista only -- so take anything I say with that in mind. I bang out a whopping 1-4 drinks/ day, not 300+

I played around once with tamping on a scale and found it was really easy when at ~18 lbs and shooting to be near 30 lbs I would actually hit close to 60 lbs. I got a calibrated tamper after that -- the 25-30 lb range is just not a natural amount of force for me. It like the gearing in a transmission -- my daily driver doesn't comfortably drive at 25 mph, which is the lower speed limit on the main road leading to my house. Its about 4k RPM in 2nd gear yet too low in 3rd gear. The calibrated tamper has helped a lot.

Also, the harder you tamp the easier it is to disturb the puck/ tamp unevenly in my experience.

 

[hmh]

A good way to save money early on and get a decent grinder is to buy the Eureka Mignon Crono and have them replace the drip burrs with the espresso burrs. You get the same internal gear and coffee output as the Mignon Silenzio but won't have all the add-ons.

This place does it in Canada (was way cheaper when I bought mine) but you could just ask at your local shop: Eureka Black Mignon Crono Espresso Coffee Grinder

 

[Corradobrit1]

Is James wrong then?

Lets just say I don't consider him an authority no matter how smooth his presentation might be. I'm getting Rycky vibes.

 

[WPerry]

Lets just say I don't consider him an authority no matter how smooth his presentation might be. I'm getting Rycky vibes.

the man's a WBC Champion, author, has a roasting company, etc, etc. Ryky? Nah, that's just wrong.

I believe that his reasoning is that the pump pressure is going to far exceed any tamp pressure. You need to tamp the puck firmly enough that it has integrity enough to not fall apart initially, but after that, the pump is going to hit it harder than you could.

 

[MarcelNL]

I'm in between, he does explain stuff well...mostly, but sometimes he is plain wrong....like with the vintage machines and lever stuff recently. No big deal IMO, there are more places to find information...home-barista is my goto place rather than YT

 

[Corradobrit1]

the man's a WBC Champion, author, has a roasting company, etc, etc. Ryky? Nah, that's just wrong.

I believe that his reasoning is that the pump pressure is going to far exceed any tamp pressure. You need to tamp the puck firmly enough that it has integrity enough to not fall apart initially, but after that, the pump is going to hit it harder than you could.

World Championships:

World Barista Champion 2007

5th place World Barista Championships 2006

5th place World Latte Art Championships 2006

5th place World Coffee Tasting Championships 2008

2nd place World Brewers Cup 2011

National Championships:

UK Barista Champion 2006 & 2007

UK Coffee Tasting Champion 2008

UK Brewers Cup Champion 2011



But what has he done recently?......OK, I take the Ryky slur back. Nobody deserves that. I still don't adhere to his thesis that you can't tamp too much.

 

[MarcelNL]

lately he has been busy with YT ;-)

I'm not if he does not simply means that too much tamping pressure does not hurt unless it distrubs the puck (which is easy enough, even at low pressure it's easy enough to kick loose one side, or lift part of the puck if the side of the tamper is not perfectly clean etc)

 

[jedy617]

Yeah not sure on the Ryky vibes as with most of his videos he provides a lot of good breakdowns based on real measurements vs only subjectivity like Ryky.

Also on the "what has he done recently?" question. I'm not sure there is anything else for him to "do" to be a pretty big authority. Barista champion, written three books, starting a roasting business, and consulting for quite a long time. I mean he was researching and writing on coffee forums like we are on KKF since the early 2000's. Other than that I think the big thing he is currently focused on is his media. Not sure if there are any big coffee youtube channels that go in depth as James does on testing various experiments.

Regardless, with all of the qualifications I think I would trust him on the matter vs someone I don't know on here. Not saying it's impossible to overtamp but I give the benefit of the doubt to James. Even if you could overtamp I think it would require an unrealistic amount of force. This is all a moot point anyway...the moral of the story is that tampers which put down a specific exacting pressure are a bit of a waste of money, it's not hard to tamp correctly with a normal tamper. Only reason I could see tamping assistance is important is if you have a disability or some other reason you cannot press a tamper down yourself.