Greetings from Australia
- Thread starter msum
- Start date
Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:
Welcome to the forums! Just be prepared that most people around here use water stones to sharpen knives (and there are good reasons for that), so most advice will go in that direction.
Welcome msum.
Where abouts are you from?
I started out with Edgepro, which is a nice stepping stone (pun actually not intended, but I'll take it) for freehand sharpening. Freehand is actually much easier to learn than you might think, although it is a very long road to master it. You can do so much more with freehand sharpening than you can with a guided system such as the Edgepro.
There is no need to use naturals until you are ready to jump down another deeper rabbit hole. You can get any knife super sharp on synthetics.
Where abouts are you from?
I started out with Edgepro, which is a nice stepping stone (pun actually not intended, but I'll take it) for freehand sharpening. Freehand is actually much easier to learn than you might think, although it is a very long road to master it. You can do so much more with freehand sharpening than you can with a guided system such as the Edgepro.
There is no need to use naturals until you are ready to jump down another deeper rabbit hole. You can get any knife super sharp on synthetics.
G'day and welcome to the forum!
We're not exclusively hung up on naturals. And you can always afford one natural... it's descending down the rabbit hole that can cost you dearly!
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
Naw, hardly any bias at all…
"What?! You used a synthetic, of all things? Did I really hear that right? Do you molest children, too, by any chance?"
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
- Messages
- 9,798
- Reaction score
- 4,515
Welcome aboard!
Thanks all for the replies.
Definitely no natural stones for the time being.
I made a conscious decision to go with Edge Pro, but would like to slowly develop some freehand skill. I have some Tojiro DP knives for practice.
I’m in Victoria, Australia, to answer a previous question. Have never seen any nice Japanese knives available locally. Have never been to Chef’s Armoury, though.
Anyway, I shall try not to derail this intro thread. As I mentioned, I’m only a short time lurker, so I’m sure there’s lots of reading I can do on the topics of sharpening and my next knife.
Definitely no natural stones for the time being.
I made a conscious decision to go with Edge Pro, but would like to slowly develop some freehand skill. I have some Tojiro DP knives for practice.
I’m in Victoria, Australia, to answer a previous question. Have never seen any nice Japanese knives available locally. Have never been to Chef’s Armoury, though.
Anyway, I shall try not to derail this intro thread. As I mentioned, I’m only a short time lurker, so I’m sure there’s lots of reading I can do on the topics of sharpening and my next knife.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
Start by browsing the sharpening forum. You will quickly find loads of links to other material, as well as plenty of reviews and opinions.
As it is your thread, yo can't really derail it [emoji4].
Are you in Melbourne or out in the scrub? Quite a few Victorians on the forums.
Edgepro will teach you a bit about edge angles and grits (although the FEPA-F grit system that Edgepro uses is different to the JIS system that most waterstones use).
A very good introduction to sharpening can be found on the JKI sharpening series found on the Tubes (or via links at japaneseknifeimports.com). The knifeplanet.net sharpening school is also helpful. Others have also suggested the Korin sharpening videos although I have not watched them.
I think that the Edgepro site has some reasonable videos on how to use the system.
There is a very long thread (title: assymety the real deal) which details some of the limitations of guided systems. It took me a while to get my head around it but the essence is while guided systems will give you a precise edge, they cannot easily maintain the geometey of assymetrical knives (both at the edge and higher up the blade) so the knife's performance will deteriorate over time. You should also have a look at Kippington's "A basic explanation of assymetry" thread.
The first skill that you will learn with sharpening is maintaining a consistent angle. This is really the only thing that the Edgepro does for you. Jon's videos show how to hold the knife to help with this while freehanding. It won't take too long to work out how to do this freehanding. I guess that I had a little more confidence trying this because I knew that I could fix any errors at the edge with the Edgepro (not that I ever needed to). FWIW, I haven't used my Edgepro in almost 3 years now.
The next skill you will need to learn is controlling the pressure/ force that you sharpen with. More pressure removes steel faster but raises a bigger burr. You can abrade this burr by gradually decreasing your pressure (until you are barely using the weight of the knife) ON YOUR COARSEST STONE. The burr will limit your sharpness, so reducing it is key to getting good results, especially on stainless steels which have more tenacious burrs. It's not as simple as a sideways swipe on the stones or a drag through a cork (these are really just the last steps in deburring). If the knife isn't sharp after the first stone, you are not ready to move to the next stone. You should only polish with very light pressure on subsequent stones.
When a knife loses its edge, you should sharpen on a fine stone, only moving on to a medium stone when a fine stone won't rapidly produce a burr. You will eventually need to wrap your head around maintaining the geometry of a knife by thinning. I like to do a little thinning each time I sharpen on a medium or coarser stone. Thinning is not as scary as it sounds. You really just need to think about the geometry of the knife and follow that geometry when you remove metal. Some wide bevel knives (those with flat wide bevels) make this super easy- you just follow the wide bevel.
If you learn sharpening on VG10 knives like Tojiros, they will probably teach you good deburring skills because they are renowned for forming tenacious burrs (I must confess that I have not sharpened VG10 but I do find stainless in general more of a pain to propperly deburr and VG10 has a particular reputation even amongst stainless). You will probably find it easier to learn to sharpen on a good carbon or semistainless knife.
Hope this helps.
Are you in Melbourne or out in the scrub? Quite a few Victorians on the forums.
Edgepro will teach you a bit about edge angles and grits (although the FEPA-F grit system that Edgepro uses is different to the JIS system that most waterstones use).
A very good introduction to sharpening can be found on the JKI sharpening series found on the Tubes (or via links at japaneseknifeimports.com). The knifeplanet.net sharpening school is also helpful. Others have also suggested the Korin sharpening videos although I have not watched them.
I think that the Edgepro site has some reasonable videos on how to use the system.
There is a very long thread (title: assymety the real deal) which details some of the limitations of guided systems. It took me a while to get my head around it but the essence is while guided systems will give you a precise edge, they cannot easily maintain the geometey of assymetrical knives (both at the edge and higher up the blade) so the knife's performance will deteriorate over time. You should also have a look at Kippington's "A basic explanation of assymetry" thread.
The first skill that you will learn with sharpening is maintaining a consistent angle. This is really the only thing that the Edgepro does for you. Jon's videos show how to hold the knife to help with this while freehanding. It won't take too long to work out how to do this freehanding. I guess that I had a little more confidence trying this because I knew that I could fix any errors at the edge with the Edgepro (not that I ever needed to). FWIW, I haven't used my Edgepro in almost 3 years now.
The next skill you will need to learn is controlling the pressure/ force that you sharpen with. More pressure removes steel faster but raises a bigger burr. You can abrade this burr by gradually decreasing your pressure (until you are barely using the weight of the knife) ON YOUR COARSEST STONE. The burr will limit your sharpness, so reducing it is key to getting good results, especially on stainless steels which have more tenacious burrs. It's not as simple as a sideways swipe on the stones or a drag through a cork (these are really just the last steps in deburring). If the knife isn't sharp after the first stone, you are not ready to move to the next stone. You should only polish with very light pressure on subsequent stones.
When a knife loses its edge, you should sharpen on a fine stone, only moving on to a medium stone when a fine stone won't rapidly produce a burr. You will eventually need to wrap your head around maintaining the geometry of a knife by thinning. I like to do a little thinning each time I sharpen on a medium or coarser stone. Thinning is not as scary as it sounds. You really just need to think about the geometry of the knife and follow that geometry when you remove metal. Some wide bevel knives (those with flat wide bevels) make this super easy- you just follow the wide bevel.
If you learn sharpening on VG10 knives like Tojiros, they will probably teach you good deburring skills because they are renowned for forming tenacious burrs (I must confess that I have not sharpened VG10 but I do find stainless in general more of a pain to propperly deburr and VG10 has a particular reputation even amongst stainless). You will probably find it easier to learn to sharpen on a good carbon or semistainless knife.
Hope this helps.
Last edited:
Good write up by @Nemo above.
A footnote on VG10 (your Tojiro practice knives). VG10 is not universally condemned. See this thread for a discussion: https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/no-love-for-vg-10.39293/
You'll see that there are forumites who enjoy sharpening and using VG10. Learning on stainless knives might not bring as much joy as the results you get from carbon steels, but it's learning all the same. Personally, I don't have issues sharpening/deburring VG10 but have never done any thinning of it. YMMV.
A footnote on VG10 (your Tojiro practice knives). VG10 is not universally condemned. See this thread for a discussion: https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/no-love-for-vg-10.39293/
You'll see that there are forumites who enjoy sharpening and using VG10. Learning on stainless knives might not bring as much joy as the results you get from carbon steels, but it's learning all the same. Personally, I don't have issues sharpening/deburring VG10 but have never done any thinning of it. YMMV.
Last edited:
Yep, this is an important point.
You should take with a grain of salt anything said by someone who hasn't actually used the thing they are talking about.
And you should disclose that you haven't used something if offering an opinion on it.
You should take with a grain of salt anything said by someone who hasn't actually used the thing they are talking about.
And you should disclose that you haven't used something if offering an opinion on it.
Luftmensch
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2017
- Messages
- 2,316
- Reaction score
- 3,186
G'day cobber*
@msum... I am pretty sure you disambiguated Matus' post... but the key word is water stones... which is not synonymous with natural stones. Synthetic water stones are indispensable!
Definitely not... Even natural stone diehards are likely to use synthetics at lower grits (unless they are sadists).
What water stones do you have at your disposal?
It may seem obvious (you would think blind freddy** would see it) but this is very good advice to heed. Dont rush up to higher grits
This forum is a great repository of advice on all things kitchen knife related. Have a browse! I prefer to search the forum through google e.g.:
It is true this forum has a bias towards certain things (e.g. freehand sharpening, Japanese knives). So do take that on board. If this is a hobby... take the path that you enjoy the most! Also, don't be too anxious. If you take it slow and are sensible, it is near impossible to damage a knife beyond repair.
And remember... if you have a sharpen... you get a sharpen. How good is sharpening?**
Huroo!*
* Just to turn it up for the other forum folk
** Just for the Aussies
@msum... I am pretty sure you disambiguated Matus' post... but the key word is water stones... which is not synonymous with natural stones. Synthetic water stones are indispensable!
Definitely not... Even natural stone diehards are likely to use synthetics at lower grits (unless they are sadists).
What water stones do you have at your disposal?
It may seem obvious (you would think blind freddy** would see it) but this is very good advice to heed. Dont rush up to higher grits
This forum is a great repository of advice on all things kitchen knife related. Have a browse! I prefer to search the forum through google e.g.:
Edge Pro site:https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com
It is true this forum has a bias towards certain things (e.g. freehand sharpening, Japanese knives). So do take that on board. If this is a hobby... take the path that you enjoy the most! Also, don't be too anxious. If you take it slow and are sensible, it is near impossible to damage a knife beyond repair.
And remember... if you have a sharpen... you get a sharpen. How good is sharpening?**
Huroo!*
* Just to turn it up for the other forum folk
** Just for the Aussies
G'day mate
This thread has taken off (maybe I have low expectations).
I'm in Melbourne.
Thanks to Nemo for a quick rundown. I had thought asymmetry was possible to achieve with an Edge Pro, but, on reflection, it is probably quite a nuisance. I also figured asymmetry might not matter so much to me as a non-professional who doesn't own ultra-specialised knives.
I've got a couple of Nubatama stones. A result of an interaction with Ken Schwartz, which I found positive, although I am an impressionable n00b. I don't know what kind of reputation he has around here. Seemed (perhaps excessively) generous with his time and was pleasant over the phone, but doesn't seem to have a presence here from what I've briefly seen. Seems like he'd potentially have strong feelings about certain things but didn't strike me as pushy.
Regarding the Tojiro DP, I figured it's not too expensive and it also seemed to have a decent reputation. But maybe I should look into the carbon-steel-for-sharpening-practice thing...
I'm reassured that as least some people feel I can't do too much damage!
I'm in Melbourne.
Thanks to Nemo for a quick rundown. I had thought asymmetry was possible to achieve with an Edge Pro, but, on reflection, it is probably quite a nuisance. I also figured asymmetry might not matter so much to me as a non-professional who doesn't own ultra-specialised knives.
I've got a couple of Nubatama stones. A result of an interaction with Ken Schwartz, which I found positive, although I am an impressionable n00b. I don't know what kind of reputation he has around here. Seemed (perhaps excessively) generous with his time and was pleasant over the phone, but doesn't seem to have a presence here from what I've briefly seen. Seems like he'd potentially have strong feelings about certain things but didn't strike me as pushy.
Regarding the Tojiro DP, I figured it's not too expensive and it also seemed to have a decent reputation. But maybe I should look into the carbon-steel-for-sharpening-practice thing...
I'm reassured that as least some people feel I can't do too much damage!
Mute-on
Senior Member
Loads of Melburnians here, some weirder than others
Throw out the Edge Pro, it won’t teach you how to sharpen, IMHO. Your hands, eyes, ears, and the knife you are holding, are what teach you to sharpen. That, and Jon’s YouTube videos
Throw out the Edge Pro, it won’t teach you how to sharpen, IMHO. Your hands, eyes, ears, and the knife you are holding, are what teach you to sharpen. That, and Jon’s YouTube videos
Loads of Melburnians here, some weirder than others
Throw out the Edge Pro, it won’t teach you how to sharpen, IMHO. Your hands, eyes, ears, and the knife you are holding, are what teach you to sharpen. That, and Jon’s YouTube videos
Weird Melbournitians, well I never!
I’ve actually only run into one Melburnian who was obviously a J knife fan. I must live under a rock (or is that an oil stone).
Regarding the Edge Pro, I kind of feel invested in at least giving it a bit of a go. I like the idea of the repeatability. The problem is I don’t trust my hands, eyes or ears. Having said that, I would certainly like to learn freehand.
What’s the best way to use the stickied which knife should I buy thread? Do I just start a new thread and post my answers to the questionnaire in the first post? Actually, I want to order something from Kippington and support local business!
Is there a good way to find up to date recommendations for online retailers? Just a google search of the forum? Or should I be approaching the craftsmen themselves directly? If so, is my inability to speak Japanese much of a problem?
As an ex-Melbournian, I resemble that remark!
When you get even a little bit good at freehand (which won't take too long) you will start to wonder why you need a guided system.
On the "which knife" thread- Yep, copy and paste (and answer) the questionairre into a new thread in "kitchen knife knowledge".
Kip makes some blooddy nice knives. I have 2. He thinks a lot about grinds and profiles and it shows.
There are a couple of other good makers in and around Melbourne and a number more in NSW. You could have a very nice collection of just Aussie-made knives.
The best way to get recommends is to start a "which knife" thread.
Thanks!
I must be living under a rock! Had no idea there are a few Australian smiths making kitchen knives.
Is there a good resource summarising what each Aussie smith “does”? i.e. what’s characteristic of their style/approach, what they’re interested in, what they’re strong at? Or do I just start a “which knife” thread?
There's more than a few in Aus to be honest.
Instagram is your friend there.
Down in Melbourne you've got Tobi at Metalmonkey, Rob at the.9nine, Chris Goldbland, Pat at Eclipse, Luke Wallace, Saul from SKK.
Kippington in Adelaide (?), along with Gardener Knives.
Here in NSW you've got Mert Tansu, Chadd at Tristone, James Oatley, Dmitriy at DPCustomKnives, Chris Maher, Brook Turner Blades, Jezz at Oblivion and Joel Ovington.
In Canberra you've got Kev Slattery at KevsForge, Karim at Tharwa Forge.
In Tassie there's Will from NewHamKnives.
There's a bunch of others scattered around.
Seriously, check out Instagram.
Kev
Instagram is your friend there.
Down in Melbourne you've got Tobi at Metalmonkey, Rob at the.9nine, Chris Goldbland, Pat at Eclipse, Luke Wallace, Saul from SKK.
Kippington in Adelaide (?), along with Gardener Knives.
Here in NSW you've got Mert Tansu, Chadd at Tristone, James Oatley, Dmitriy at DPCustomKnives, Chris Maher, Brook Turner Blades, Jezz at Oblivion and Joel Ovington.
In Canberra you've got Kev Slattery at KevsForge, Karim at Tharwa Forge.
In Tassie there's Will from NewHamKnives.
There's a bunch of others scattered around.
Seriously, check out Instagram.
Kev
Just a minor correction to Kev's very useful list of knife makers above - Kippington is in fact Melbourne based.
