GYUTO 270 REC

[wbusby1]

LOCATION
What country are you in?
usa


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
GYUTO
Are you right or left handed?
Left
Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
japanese (not oversized please!)
What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
255-275mm
Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
nope
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$300


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
pro but both really
What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
workhorse, probably not going to use for boning or other super-specialized tasks! and much more veg than proteins.
What knife, if any, are you replacing?
None
Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
pinch
What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
chop,push,draw,slice, rock, walk in order of frequency
What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Dislike overly glitzy knives; gaudiness discouraged. the less fancy it looks the better.... pro kitchen.
Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
light to medium light, I have no problem rounding spine and choil etc.
Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
appreciate ease of sharpening, but almost any carbon is "easy"
Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Not a big priority, like to take to high grits and sharpen/touch up frequently


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
synthetic and wood
Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
yes
If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
no


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
Food release is important but I don't like wedging (isn't this kind of obvious and/or knife specific!?) I am looking for a workhorse, I don't want noticeable flex. I prefer knives that are thin behind the edge but sturdy overall (don't most of us?) I like a tall primary bevel with small secondary. Flatter profile. not extra tall or short, prefer to have noticeable distal taper. balance point right at the pinch grip or just a hair ahead since it's a 270. Have enjoyed white #1 the most in the past, Aogami 2nd most, but everyone likes to point out how much a dif heat treat and quality of forging makes more than metal used.

Overgrinds are a pain in the *ss on reactive blades IMO.

whew this questionnaire is more exhausting than exhaustive! I feel like I've achieved something already! Yet I also feel like I've just expressed the expected. What more do you want to know? I am on this forum because I am a bit frustrated with CKTG and JKI. I've used a yamashin and loved it, I've used a kikuichi TKC and disliked it. I've used a victoronix fibrox and liked it quite a bit, I have a moritaka cleaver which I dislike (fat, over a pound...) I don't care for the mizunos and shuns I've used (btw REALLY turned off by Korin too).


Help?

 

[chinacats]

Welcome!

I think one of the issues for you may be the lefty part. I would suggest a thinner blade because it will have less affect but will also have a bit more stiction (which drives me nuts as well).

I'd personally wait for a few of the people who are same handed to offer advice. I may throw out the idea of a tall cleaver though like a CCK 11xx which I really enjoy but I've never used one from your side of the board

I get the problems/frustration with cktog, but I've had nothing but positive experiences with JKI, perhaps you could try talking with Jon directly and you may have better luck?

Cheers

 

[wbusby1]

I'm not sure I follow why you are suggesting being a lefty would be a problem? D-shaped handles?

I'm asking for a gyuto rec. I have a moritaka cleaver that I'm working on thinning but right now I'm looking for a gyuto. I get the idea that JKI is IN with this forum and that CKTG is way OUT. But please, let's just leave em out of this thread from here on out! Thanks.

 

[IndoorOutdoorCook]

Handles are just one issue for lefty. Other than asymmetry at the bevel (steering issues), knives are also ground left or right. Like the left side is more flat, and the right side is more convex for right handed food release. So you want one that's really made to be lefty, not just the edge bevel set lefty.

 

[Godslayer]

Masakage koishi 270 its 376 canadian at knife wear so like 305-310 usd free shipping. I have a few(3) masakage knives and i like them. Another option would be to buy a tanaka blade ( there are many sub $300, sub $200) and than use thé remaining funds to rehandle it which would add to its uniquness as many users(snobs mostly) dislike plastic ferrules.

 

[daveb]

The Intinimonn Kasumi series are no frills, carbon knives that will plow through anything in front of them. They are also a good value knife that is priced within your requirements. I'm a righty but do not recall the knife being overly biased. The handle is a neutral octagonal.

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kasumi-270mm-wa-gyuto/

The reason the individual vendors come up often in these discussions is that they are the most knowledgeable of their products. For example Maxim from JNS could tell you more about the suitability of the Intinimonn for a lefty than I can. As others suggest knives based on (hopefully) their own experiences, you'll probably see more references to vendors - trying to steer or otherwise control a discussion here is a lot like trying to herd cats.

 

[aaamax]

Lol!
On these forums we love to talk shop and help people if at all possible. The tone of this one is going to be fun to watch.
Cheers.

 

[chinacats]

I'm not sure I follow why you are suggesting being a lefty would be a problem? D-shaped handles?

I'm asking for a gyuto rec. I have a moritaka cleaver that I'm working on thinning but right now I'm looking for a gyuto. I get the idea that JKI is IN with this forum and that CKTG is way OUT. But please, let's just leave em out of this thread from here on out! Thanks.

J-blades are almost all asymmetric, as has been pointed out that means that the right side is setup to aid in food release while the left is more flat.

As far as talking about vendors, I'm not sure why you brought them up since you don't want to "go there".

Good luck finding a knife you want...

 

[knyfeknerd]

Believe it or not, the lefty issue is a pretty big one and it can make it difficult and expensive to find the perfect gyuto. A vast majority of gyutos are ground asymmetrically for righty use. This will affect your performance. Once you get a hold of one that is lefty-biased, you'll likely never go back!
A lot of these gyutos can be easily corrected to fit your southpaw needs. Jon can do it, but it looks like you've ruled him out. -no disrespect implied
There are a handful of lefty members here, it would be great if they would chime in-zwiefel, labor of love, no chop -to name a few. I know labor of love has gone through a lot of gyutos only to find them way too righty-oriented.
I might add a second mention for the Itinomonn from Maksim at Japanese Natural Stones. I have a lot of experience with the stainless clad V2 core 240mm kasumi, but only the western handled version. It is one of the BEST workhorses I've ever had the pleasure of using. With some work it could be switched to lefty.
I also might add the Tanaka Ginsanko 270mm from Metalmaster. The downsides to this are: Communication with Takashi-it could take a long time to receive and he does not respond to emails!
-really rough fit and finish. Terribly uncomfortable spine and choil(you really need a belt sander to work it out)
-wait -I was gonna say plastic ferrule, but I think mine came with a horn one? maybe?
I also don't want godslayer to think I'm a snob......but plastic anywhere on any knife is a damn abomination!
Name 1 great knife with a plastic ferrule........................

good luck on your search, hopefully someone from the KKF Leftorium will be along to add something meaningful.

 

[Godslayer]

Believe it or not, the lefty issue is a pretty big one and it can make it difficult and expensive to find the perfect gyuto. A vast majority of gyutos are ground asymmetrically for righty use. This will affect your performance. Once you get a hold of one that is lefty-biased, you'll likely never go back!
A lot of these gyutos can be easily corrected to fit your southpaw needs. Jon can do it, but it looks like you've ruled him out. -no disrespect implied
There are a handful of lefty members here, it would be great if they would chime in-zwiefel, labor of love, no chop -to name a few. I know labor of love has gone through a lot of gyutos only to find them way too righty-oriented.
I might add a second mention for the Itinomonn from Maksim at Japanese Natural Stones. I have a lot of experience with the stainless clad V2 core 240mm kasumi, but only the western handled version. It is one of the BEST workhorses I've ever had the pleasure of using. With some work it could be switched to lefty.
I also might add the Tanaka Ginsanko 270mm from Metalmaster. The downsides to this are: Communication with Takashi-it could take a long time to receive and he does not respond to emails!
-really rough fit and finish. Terribly uncomfortable spine and choil(you really need a belt sander to work it out)
-wait -I was gonna say plastic ferrule, but I think mine came with a horn one? maybe?
I also don't want godslayer to think I'm a snob......but plastic anywhere on any knife is a damn abomination!
Name 1 great knife with a plastic ferrule........................

good luck on your search, hopefully someone from the KKF Leftorium will be along to add something meaningful.

Lol sorry. I meant dont immediatly rule a knife out because a ferrule is plastic. My 75 mm petty is a masakage mizu and i know a few people immediatly dismiss it as garbage solely based on that fact. I apologize if i offended you. I dislike flashy handles.

 

[knyfeknerd]

Lol sorry. I meant dont immediatly rule a knife out because a ferrule is plastic. My 75 mm petty is a masakage mizu and i know a few people immediatly dismiss it as garbage solely based on that fact. I apologize if i offended you. I dislike flashy handles.

You've actually got a point....I would be snobby about it!
sounds like a good knife if it works for you........I would give you a hard time about it in person and try to talk you into letting me put a proper(but not flashy) handle on it.
I've made some of the craziest, weird, nonsensical handles ever. But they are mostly about experimentation and utilizing scraps.
I did let a Shun go a long time ago because it was way too flashy.........super bling-bling.
I totally respect and understand having something that looks normal and plain though too.

 

[Dardeau]

I think my Heiji has a plastic ferrule. I can't tell for sure, but the texture feels plastic. I would definitely see if Labor of Love can chime in. He really has used a ton of knives and is currently having Jon at JKI adapt one to his dominance. What is frustrating you about CKTG and JKI?

 

[labor of love]

If youre a left handed user it is definitely a good idea to get in touch with whoever you order your knife through so they can make sure whatever you end up ordering will accommodate your leftyness. I like the tanaka ginsankos from metal master but ive never tried to communicate with them, both tanaka ginsankos ive used( still own 1) were lefty friendly but I could just be lucky in this regard. Knerds suggestion for a Itinomonn from Maxim is also a good idea, but get intouch with him before you order. There is like 3-4 different gyutos I would recommend you look into at JKI if you change you mind on that. Koki at JCK is helpful too with lefty stuff also.

 

[wbusby1]

I'd never heard about the faces of most double-bevel knives being unevenly ground to favor lefty/righty! This is common!? It doesn't seem like it would be an easy fix though, are you suggesting you could grind down the high spots on a knife's face to get rid of the bias!? how else would you convert one??? You'd pretty much just have to get one that's not bias or one for Lefty- I'm assuming. Never ever heard this, why don't people mention this more often? No vendors I've ever seen mention this complication!

Random aside: I've discovered that typing in "canada" every time you post is strange in a fun way.

 

[wbusby1]

AND I'm OK ordering from CKTG or JKI, sorry to have misconstrued that.

 

[daveb]

There's a thread on here by Dave Martell (I think it's under his Japanese Knife Sharpening sub-forum) called "Asymmetry - The Real Deal"

It does a good job of explaining the ways and the whys of grinding edges. It might prove a timely read.

 

[chinacats]

There's a thread on here by Dave Martell (I think it's under his Japanese Knife Sharpening sub-forum) called "Asymmetry - The Real Deal"

It does a good job of explaining the ways and the whys of grinding edges. It might prove a timely read.

This is it...first post pretty much sums things up, but the entire thread is worth a read when you have the time.

European knives are most often ground symmetrically so if this is your background you would likely never have seen asymmetrical knives.

Unless you are shopping for a laser, the thicker knives will show their asymmetry more than others. Unfortunately, there is often a premium charged for knives built for lefty's.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

As you're leaning towards a workhorse, you could try Watanabe. I'm sure he won't have a problem forging a lefty gyuto for you. http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/
Good luck!

 

[wbusby1]

I just checked Watanabe out per your rec and it is +40% for left-handers. Terrifying world we lefties live in! I'm assuming it's going to be a much better value for me to find a blade that is unbias (or at least hardly). I read Dave Martell's thread and am speaking to Jon of JKI about this. I'd still be interested in hearing more opinions from some experienced lefties on this thread, but maybe there just aren't many out there

 

[aboynamedsuita]

I'm a lefty and I've ordered from Watanabe several times. The 40% is only for the single bevel knives, so not bad considering it's usually 50% from what I've seen. I have a single bevel Honyaki kensaki yanagi from Watanabe and it cost a fortune but worth it IMO, a single bevel isn't one I'd want to try and "make it work for me".

I also have a couple of the double bevel ones (Kiritsuke Gyuto, and petty), the choil shot of the k-gyuto looks slightly right biased but it may just be the way I see it. I have a pic but I can't upload until this evening.

With the exception of the lefty Misono Swedish steel knives I got from JCK, most of what I have is whatever was available (70/30?) but with a neutral bevel. It doesn't seem to be the end of the world but I don't do pro cooking so my experience may be different than someone who has to use all day. Will need to be mindful when sharpening and thinning too.

It's an unfortunate fact of life that lefty knifes cost more but there is little we can do about it.

 

[labor of love]

I just checked Watanabe out per your rec and it is +40% for left-handers. Terrifying world we lefties live in! I'm assuming it's going to be a much better value for me to find a blade that is unbias (or at least hardly). I read Dave Martell's thread and am speaking to Jon of JKI about this. I'd still be interested in hearing more opinions from some experienced lefties on this thread, but maybe there just aren't many out there

Yeah...Ive been thinking about what to recommend for you. 270mm, workhorse, nothing too flashy, under $300...What knives have you used in the past? What knives have you looked at online and liked? Theres just so much stuff out there...I would like to hear more about what youre into. Zakuri from Jon is something worth checking out BTW.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

Maybe a Suisin High-Carbon? There's a left-handed version available http://korin.com/Knives/High-Carbon-Steel_2

 

[wbusby1]

In my OP I mentioned pretty much all the knives I've had significant experience with. The Moritaka Cleaver and Yamashin 165mm petty being the only handmade ones. The Yamashin was kinda all over the place on grind and I loved the balance and feel, I gradually thinned it and it only got better (it comes beefy). The Moritaka is also beefy and I've been working on thinning it down currently. I have been looking at all kinds of knives online and I've contacted Teruyasu Fujiwara about making me a 270 gyuto but he's pretty slow with communication. The Masakage Koishi's caught my eye. I had looked at the Zakuri's before and I'm interested, they seem to sell for a lot less in Japan than they do here.

 

[chinacats]

Be careful with TF, some people love them and some feel that they are poorly finished for the money.

 

[labor of love]

In my OP I mentioned pretty much all the knives I've had significant experience with. The Moritaka Cleaver and Yamashin 165mm petty being the only handmade ones. The Yamashin was kinda all over the place on grind and I loved the balance and feel, I gradually thinned it and it only got better (it comes beefy). The Moritaka is also beefy and I've been working on thinning it down currently. I have been looking at all kinds of knives online and I've contacted Teruyasu Fujiwara about making me a 270 gyuto but he's pretty slow with communication. The Masakage Koishi's caught my eye. I had looked at the Zakuri's before and I'm interested, they seem to sell for a lot less in Japan than they do here.

Sorry, I mustve overlooked your knife history in the original thread. I had a Masakage Koishi and speaking as a lefty if there was any asymmetry it didnt give me any problems. Those knives are really really thin though. Probably 10mm or so above the edge is about as thin as a razor blade. Different people use different definitions for what a workhorse is, so if youre implying that you want one gyuto that can do a pretty good job at everything im not sure I would recommend it as such. But it is a good knife. I honestly prefer Wakui gyutos from Bernal Cutlery over the Koishi, plus theyre cheaper. Ive also handled the cheaper Zakuris and the JKI Zakuris. Both cut great but I definitely prefer the JKI handles over the ones Ive seen for sale elsewhere which are smaller and dont feel as good.

 

[aboynamedsuita]

Here's a pic of the Watanabe 270 K-Gyuto prior to removing the handle. The choil is polished a bit more on the right (left in pic since it's upside down) which makes it look flatter, but I have a hard time telling if it actually is or not, perhaps someone else can chime in of they see

 

[chinacats]

Here's a pic of the Watanabe 270 K-Gyuto prior to removing the handle. The choil is polished a bit more on the right (left in pic since it's upside down) which makes it look flatter, but I have a hard time telling if it actually is or not, perhaps someone else can chime in of they see

View attachment 28140

definitely asymmetric...for a righty that is

 

[wbusby1]

Dunno if I should be reviving this old thread instead of starting a new one but....

I finally asked Shinichi about making me a lefty-ground gyuto and he responded:
"Our Gyuto is symmetrical double bevel 50/50. So both hand users can use it." I have never used or handled a watanabe double-bevel but the one shown above definitely appears to be right-bias (Also the Toyama 240 I have is probably my favorite knife right now and while it is close to 50/50, I think it has a little righty-bias. Anyone else want to chime in here? Should I push him more on the subject or do you think he'll make sure I get one that's 50/50? I'd like to try using a gyuto that's HAS asymmetry (for a lefty), rather than one that's just more-or-less symmetric but this seems impossible to get at this point.

A tangential question: If I do go the Watanabe route I was thinking of ordering a kurouchi since I have no problem removing the KU myself if I decide to and it's cheaper to leave the KU on and because his cladding is so reactive. Is there any reason to go ahead and get the kasumi or is it the exact same knife with just a different finish?

 

[fujiyama]

I'm really of no help here in this old thread, but I'm going to say this. I highly recommend the Hattori FH 270mm. It's under budget and comes with a lefty d-shaped handle and saya.

What it comes down to is the profile. I've never handled such a comfortable knife for a variety of tasks. It rocks over onions effortlessly, and the extra length makes easy work of large food like romaine and cabbage. The only time it slows down is for chopping, but hey, 270mm is a big knife to be chopping with. The flat spot is gigantic. It's very thin behind the edge, but has the right amount of heft at the spine.

This isn't a carbon knife or anything special, but it's something you'll reach for in a pro setting almost every time.

 

[Jkts]

I have a few watanabe gyutos. On a 300 mm it seems very symmetrical and on a 210 I see a slight bias in the sharpening, like a 60/40 edge.

When you order your specs, if you ask for as symmetrical a sharpening as possible bc you are left handed, he would understand.