Hand position for thinning

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@Rangen

A bit late to the party, lots of good things said, but saw your post early afternoon as I was working on a few knives, so I took the liberty to document a few things for you along the way. I'll try to be fast.

As already said and the most important thing, the height at which you can work comfortably. In my case I have to boost my stone holder + stone height with a brick, and my pan is also propped on two cork antislips that are almost 10mm thick. Won't talk numbers exactly, but I'm tall and that is what it takes.

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My body touching the countertop because I could basically picture than I'm naturally holding my hand at elbow height. In sharpening, I would say, shoulders are the propellers, elbows are the hinges, and wrists are the clamps - or locks or whatever. Thinning is the same.

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Sorry for the grainy shot, switched to front camera, and still not an easy picture to stabilize at arm's length. But you can easily see this space as fitting a stone and a knife at an angle and be about natural height.

But I focus on this to mostly say this tip: when sharpening or thinning, you do not want to hunch over, or have your hands raised lower. Both instances adding unnecessary tension to the neck and shoulder, as well as making your body want to naturally "lean onto" to shift the weight over. So my best tip is that before you should start anything, you should rather straighten your back, your neck, and prop your shoulders just a bit backwards - the proud stance, you know. That achieves a lot of things: it's easier to breathe, and you feel steady, and you're naturally adopting about as much strain as your shoulders can take without feeling any tension - thus describing as much as you want them to move backwards in sharpening, since it's much less strenuous to rather go forwards using the natural extension of your arms. You're also telling your body that the movement you intend to make is no leaning into, but a back and forth. You are essentially absolving it from having an influence in what is to come - only the propellers, hinges and clamps will work and define the weight shifted down your work.


Now in the proud stance, move the system back and forth. I gather that you would want your fingertips naturally getting to about mid stone at most - since naturally it's easier on the system to keep your elbows at your body backwards and just move them forward and back to inertia. So from the stance I took in picturing my above props, or this picture for sakes of equity to the similar picture above as well as to show my usual distance to the countertop -like 8 inches almost exactly quite naturally either in cutting sharpening or thinning...

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I push back the so-called sharpening station enough to get the natural inertia point where I want it to be.

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And put my fingers on the balance as I'd do in sharpening, with no further tension to the shoulders-elbows-wrists systems. My ugly reddish skin (sorry eczema, dishes, sharpening, and a lot of trips outside at -10*C in between) will be particularly helpful as we shall be able to track applied pressure just from the already greyish and swollen joint and knuckle of my two most powerful and authoritative fingers outside the essential thumb - further whitening there is equal to a real pressure I apply with the fingers mostly, and as different as what I'm about to try and show next.

Ok, no scientific experiment... What I want to show is how easy you can apply "pressure" without pressurizing the system anywhere as much. In fact, as unscientific as it is, in the next example I really tried to imagine a knife and a stone. I just did a complete thinning yesterday and today I resharpened that knife, so the balance prop setup and finger placement is really in just getting back the particular physical stance.

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So this is the natural sharpening "pressure" - 111g. Proud shoulders, inertia point, notice the relaxed and offset from center of the balance positioning of my fingers there, as if exactly "following along" something. In "thinning" this would rather represent the "most force" I'd apply in further polishing a bevel.

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See the knuckles? No much whitening but from further flex. This is the most important. In this picture I am simply "tensing" the hinges to clamps point. The forearm. My fingers naturally adopt a position that will at once receive that extra tension without fatiguing as much as they would keeping them in the relaxed position... but much more importantly, a natural adaptation to finger burns and applying the tension where you want it. About 250g in pressure simply tensing that section and angling my fingers to transmit it stably and forwardly.

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Still no further whitening of any knuckle. Now the tension is applied to the full system. From shoulders to wrists, fingers adopting the same position and place. I'm applying near to a pound of pressure now just by tensing the system. Yet this is no straining. It feels like the difference between holding nothing and holding one pound of meat.

In real life, the 250g pressure might be when I'm cutting a fresh bevel, doing a relief bevel, thinning/shaping, on something that's already pretty good. A better image would be the difference I tend to apply between the forward tip area vs. the heel area in thinning generally - usually getting the tip a bit thinner without having to break out of a full bevel motion.

The full pound of pressure feels like working a really thick crappy steel knife - on Imanishi 200 no less - just trying to inculcate it a edge shape I can much more easily follow and fine tune on a more behaved stone - but it's what is needed to get that shape without spending much time, nor straining myself over it.

Now a bit more about real pressure you're applying - is applied.

So of course in any scenario we are discussing here, there would be a knife, that knife would have its own weight, there'd be an angle locked onto by the "system". What it represents in reality is hard to figure. Sure on one hand (pun intended) you'd have a lot of indicators that the real pressure down will go higher: the knife weight, the very slight tensing of the forearms keeping to an angle in real time with it, and the peculiars of what it is you're aiming to, and on what you're trying to hit that aim. But on the other hand (pun still intended) you're holding that thing by it's much more tangible handle, so your other hand is now getting some of the weight and balance and shifts, and you're still applying your fingers on the edge/bevel in the same way in your own replaying of my unscientific scenario.

So what I really can just tell of anything out of my experience is how it felt as I placed my fingers on that balance with a flashback/dreaming of how I'd tend to work (the freshly worked knife I was basing myself onto rather a 250g weight) and really, you're liable to only find about a quarter of the knife's weight added onto my barehanded approximate figures. So a 200g knife would hit 150-160g on that same balance if you had a third arm taking that picture while using your more realistic other two into trying to prove or disprove my figures, but I once did a few tests on that same balance out of being able to picture them. All in all, your hands automatically try to balance repetitive gestures over any range of weight they encounter as long as doing so is not straining. Also, that combining both hands to levy any added weight (that's not strenuous to both now) will until breaking point greatly flatten out the extra weight to the barehanded natural of a single one. I guess then that what I've just tried to show or tell wouldn't hold much into working with a Chinese cleaver or something.
 
Bringing me into what I've left undiscussed so far: to me the tension is a tad more straining when deburring than thinning, Indeed my natural 100g + hand pressure is way too much for deburring. I'm quite sure I can reduce both that and blade weight going no higher than 40-50g (not including the last few "weightless" leading strokes). My mental figure is about 25g then until "weightless". Wherever I may end up to, the weighting off of both blade and "inert shoulders-elbows-wrists system" weight is what puts the most strain on it as well as the proud stance is what most helps to keep the strictest angle, just as well as I find myself impeded by a more constricted range of propelling and hinging the system no matter how the clamps get easy and without much tension there.
 
Oh, yes. Your way of holding is much better than what I was doing. Now the work is being done by my triceps and shoulders, not my fingers. Thank you.
Disclaimer : I did not studied medecine at all so please contradic me if I am saying non sense :
It's very important on all things we do to understand the hierarchy of strenght in our body. That apply to sharpening but to so many things (like forging) : fingers are super precise but weak, wrist is very good at blocking or moving the hand but is still very weak, elbow is little stronger and will give some flexibility to your mouvement but is also quite weak (tennis elbow is quite a common issue), then we reach the shoulders, those are much more powerful and they must be in my opinion where 80% of your strengh should come from, much more muscles and strengh there. Finally, stronger than your elbow : your legs. Even for something like sharpening don't work with rigid inert legs but with active, souple, ready to push legs, they will help your shoulders to work better and longer.
Happy that the hand position is helpful. Like with musical instrument gestures, they are not always very natural, it takes time to learn you body to be confortable with them, let your body learn nicely and slowly, don't force or rush and don't sharpen/thin for 8 hours straight if you are not used to do it. You will arm your body and get some body issues that may stay there for a very long time and that you could have avoid if you learned more slowly.
 
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