Hand position for thinning

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I've been dabbling in thinning lately. It seems easy, as long as the steel is tractable, and there isn't that much to take off. It has gone well.

Now I'm up against some more ambitious projects, and I think I'm doing it wrong. Physically, I mean. I read again today, as I've read before, that an experienced thinner here had really tired himself out, because his forearms and shoulders were sore.

Kind of an envious wakeup call for me, because my fingers and thumbs are what get sore first, and not after that much time, maybe 15 minutes. I have to spread my thinning projects out over days. And no, I don't have any hand condition that would cause this.

So how do you hold the knife when thinning? Where and how are you applying pressure, and with what muscles?

I've already learned how absolutely crucial hand position was to getting my sharpening to where I wanted it to be. Now I guess I need to learn that for thinning. Any good videos that illustrate proper technique?
 
The best practice is single bevel hamaguri sharpening since “thinning” is just half the hamaguri process times two sides. Jon’s videos are great for this. I haven’t seen the equivalent for just thinning.
 
I basically do all the same as I would when sharpening just with the knife laid back more and my fingers moving to where they are needed for pressure.

Consider your overall setup and posture just to be sure that's good. Maybe too much pressure with your fingers? My experience is that it doesn't go quickly even if you try to make it.
 
The more I do it, the more I think you can throw the rules out the window for grip. However you hold the knife to get the angle of approach and contact area you need is appropriate.

For me, getting the stone height right so I can maintain non-hunched posture and a neutral stance / back is key.
God I don't know how people like Milan And Yanick do it. After an hour of working with my stones my back and feet/knees are killing me
 
God I don't know how people like Milan And Yanick do it. After an hour of working with my stones my back and feet/knees are killing me
Used to be this way until I finally found the right height setup for me. I stack a holder on top of a sink bridge and sometimes add another holder or wooden base for smaller stones so it’s the right height. Saved my back.

On my feet all day most days anyways so the feet and knees are used to it.
 
Yeah man, height matters.

I will also say that I can't marathon thinning regardless of my hand issues. I work in spurts if there's a fair amount to do.

Starting on a low enough stone?
 
Used to be this way until I finally found the right height setup for me. I stack a holder on top of a sink bridge and sometimes add another holder or wooden base for smaller stones so it’s the right height. Saved my back.

On my feet all day most days anyways so the feet and knees are used to it.
Have you ever considered trying a sitting setup?
 
I basically do all the same as I would when sharpening just with the knife laid back more and my fingers moving to where they are needed for pressure.

Consider your overall setup and posture just to be sure that's good. Maybe too much pressure with your fingers? My experience is that it doesn't go quickly even if you try to make it.
Yeah, I think that's most of it. I'm trying to hurry it along with finger pressure, and it's not doing either the knife or my fingers much good.

Edit: This is probably my 10th time of relearning the basic lesson: let the tool do the work.
 
Picked up this tip from @milangravier. Angle the stone up and away from you. I find I can apply greater pressure with the same effort and equal to greater precision.
IMG_8505.jpeg
 
Picked up this tip from @milangravier. Angle the stone up and away from you. I find I can apply greater pressure with the same effort and equal to greater precision.
View attachment 290682
That's a great tip. I will definitely use it in my next session. Now my question is why you are thinning on the 400 instead of a 200.

I put aside my 200 from the new NSK extra-hard line because it didn't seem fast enough. Now I'm not completely sure that the 240 Sigma Power Select II I traded it for is actually any faster. I guess, like Luke, I need patience.
 
That's a great tip. I will definitely use it in my next session. Now my question is why you are thinning on the 400 instead of a 200.

I put aside my 200 from the new NSK extra-hard line because it didn't seem fast enough. Now I'm not completely sure that the 240 Sigma Power Select II I traded it for is actually any faster. I guess, like Luke, I need patience.
Eh, that was the final bevel shaping. The bulk of the thinning was done on 200 grit.
 
Almost wearing out an NSK 400 with just final bevel shaping is badass beyond my imagination.
I do bulk removal on 200 grit but try to avoid hitting a zero edge or hitting the shinogi fully there as I find it too easy to cause new problems on 200 grit. I typically just do 45° +/- 15° angle of attack on 200 grit for max stability. At 400 grit I want to see full contact at the shinogi at both perpendicular to the edge and parallel to the edge so I do a full scratch pattern each way. Then at 800 grit I finally try and zero out the bevel. If I do all that typically the work after is fairly easy and straightforward to get a good result. With proper maintenance a low bevel knife would never need to see something below a 1k ever again.

I spend nearly equal time on 200 and 400 grit. I’ve killed a 200 grit NSK also. But I also do stupid projects like this wide bevel I’m converting to full convex by hand… life is easier if you get something properly made to start
 
I do bulk removal on 200 grit but try to avoid hitting a zero edge or hitting the shinogi fully there as I find it too easy to cause new problems on 200 grit. I typically just do 45° +/- 15° angle of attack on 200 grit for max stability. At 400 grit I want to see full contact at the shinogi at both perpendicular to the edge and parallel to the edge so I do a full scratch pattern each way. Then at 800 grit I finally try and zero out the bevel. If I do all that typically the work after is fairly easy and straightforward to get a good result. With proper maintenance a low bevel knife would never need to see something below a 1k ever again.

I spend nearly equal time on 200 and 400 grit. I’ve killed a 200 grit NSK also. But I also do stupid projects like this wide bevel I’m converting to full convex by hand… life is easier if you get something properly made to start
You know, it might be about time to write a book. With pictures. I'd buy it.
 
I put aside my 200 from the new NSK extra-hard line because it didn't seem fast enough. Now I'm not completely sure that the 240 Sigma Power Select II I traded it for is actually any faster. I guess, like Luke, I need patience.
All coarse stones (<400) suck IMO. The NSK 200 sucks the least. It’s not as fast sometimes as others, but the added hardness and precision saves time down the road. Less messy too. Overall, it’s my preferred.
 
I move my handle hand up and down the spine depending on where I'm working so my thumb on that side is also free to apply pressure. If I'm trying to get a low spot out I'll reposition my handle hand onto the spine near the spot, then put my handle thumb on one side of the low spot and index+middle finger of my free hand on the other side of the low spot.
 
I've been dabbling in thinning lately. It seems easy, as long as the steel is tractable, and there isn't that much to take off. It has gone well.

Now I'm up against some more ambitious projects, and I think I'm doing it wrong. Physically, I mean. I read again today, as I've read before, that an experienced thinner here had really tired himself out, because his forearms and shoulders were sore.

Kind of an envious wakeup call for me, because my fingers and thumbs are what get sore first, and not after that much time, maybe 15 minutes. I have to spread my thinning projects out over days. And no, I don't have any hand condition that would cause this.

So how do you hold the knife when thinning? Where and how are you applying pressure, and with what muscles?

I've already learned how absolutely crucial hand position was to getting my sharpening to where I wanted it to be. Now I guess I need to learn that for thinning. Any good videos that illustrate proper technique?
Type of knife you’re thinning makes a difference too. My forearms and shoulders are mostly sore from working on cleavers where the height of the knife and the extra weight (most of mine are in the 400-600 gram range) takes it’s toll over time. Especially when you thin near the heel of a cleaver, the weight distribution can be really weird then you’re trying to hit specific spots. Normal gyutos and other smaller knives cause a lot less soreness. Especially when you figure out what position is most comfortable for you.
I still haven’t figured out getting right behind the edge without blowing out my fingertips lol. I should become a burglar because I almost never have defined fingerprints lol
One of my supervisors caught sight of my left hand a while back after a weekend of thinning projects and I had to explain to them why I had significantly less skin on two of my fingertips. Ended up sharpening a couple Globals for them, they were pretty happy with the results.

I remember in one of the NSK videos with Ivan, his fingertips started bleeding at one point and I found that to be very reassuring
.
 
Type of knife you’re thinning makes a difference too. My forearms and shoulders are mostly sore from working on cleavers where the height of the knife and the extra weight (most of mine are in the 400-600 gram range) takes it’s toll over time. Especially when you thin near the heel of a cleaver, the weight distribution can be really weird then you’re trying to hit specific spots. Normal gyutos and other smaller knives cause a lot less soreness. Especially when you figure out what position is most comfortable for you.

One of my supervisors caught sight of my left hand a while back after a weekend of thinning projects and I had to explain to them why I had significantly less skin on two of my fingertips. Ended up sharpening a couple Globals for them, they were pretty happy with the results.

I remember in one of the NSK videos with Ivan, his fingertips started bleeding at one point and I found that to be very reassuring
.
I used to loose finger prints to but I'm getting better at keeping them now.

I had a sharpening class and had talked about making sure skin is kept away from the stones but one guy was like "why is the slurry changing colour on this stone?".
 
I think it is a very important subject and I remember asking about same question maybe 2 years ago on a facebook group and some people were just saying what the hell are you working on stones anyway, just use a belt grinder:rolleyes:. Any job you do is physical, you need to work in a good position whatever you do.
The first year I worked on stones I did not think enough about ergonomic, position, height and after about 6 month/1year my back start to be painful almost every time I was working and very very painful after several hours. It was very bad times and hopefully I stopped, took time to think about it and tried to improve the situation. Now two years later I am much much better, my back is quite well and I can work a day on the stones without too much troubles.
1. make your place ergonomic : height where the stone is must be adaptable, you need the table to be quite low so you can add when you need things to set the stone at the correct height. What is correct ? I guess that need to be a little personnal but I would say that horizontal forarm is about a good position, sometimes you need lower to put more pressure but as soon as you realise you start to bend your back and neck, your position is wrong. You must be standing, not too rigidly, confortably, relaxed.
Height is very important but so is the distance between you and the stone, don't put it too far away (because of your sink) because you will start to bend your back. It is also quite nice to be able to turn around your stone a little and not being stuck in one only front position. And think also about the angle of your stone with respect to your body, the stone can be horizontal but can also set a little up or down depending what you do. I don't use the stone down toward me but looks like a lot do. I mainly use the stone a step up toward me like @ethompson showed before, in the initial stage (stones 200/800 grit) and then go with stone horizontal.
Make the place confortable : I have put a special foam carpet on my floor, anti-fatigue mat I think it is called. These are really great. And put good light where you work (I like both very large source of light and spot source light, I have both where I work).
Last thing, I did not succed to set it really for now but having the possibility to alternate from standing to sitting position may be the best for your body.
2. Warm your body before starting and do some pauses about every hour or at least 2 hours. Go make a little walk for 5 minutes and stretch.
3. Your hand position. I think the hand holding the knife is most important. For being very precise I got my thumb at the heel of the knife close to the edge, my index is on the spine and other fingers wrap around the spine to the other side of the blade. That way I guess it not the most confortable but I am very precise... Try different things if this position is not the best for you, but your hand holding the blade must be able to hold it firmly being somewhat relaxed enough if possible. I don't always use that position with my hand (sometimes the index is just like the other fingers and is wrapped around the spine), but when I want to be very precise, I do it, and I like it.
You other hand will use genereally two fingers to put pressure where you need it. Sometimes I put them same spot, but often there is one close to the edge and other close to shinogi so I can put pressure down the edge with one and stabilise with the other or put pressure at shinogi and stabilise with the other one. Those fingers should not help you to move the blade on the stone (in my opinion) that's the job of the other hand holding the knife but help to guide and set the pressure where you need it. Sword polishers would even not put fingers like that on the blade to spot pressure but would just grab the blade at one end or put the end of the wrist on the blade. You can try if it work for you (they have set a position and gestures for quite some centuries now so it's not stupid to try the way they do, even if we're working a bit differently).
 
I take the handle off if I can, so I don't stain the heck out of it with slurry for extended thinning. Otherwise, I cost it with mineral oil so slurry doesn't embed itself deeply, wipe excess off, wrap in plastic film, tape it secure but also with a little tape "tail" so I can take it off at the end (tape too tight is hard to get off).

If I am bulk thinning something like the spine, I have the a couple different ways I hold the knife ... For this way, I have the spine perpendicular to the stone. I do this for distal taper of spine, but not for the rest of the blade face geometry necessarily.

Yeah, starting out, it's finger strength and endurance. My hands don't cramp as much anymore but they did so much starting out. Now it's shoulders and the forearm muscles near the shoulders and biceps from the pressure I like to use -- which isn't good necessarily. The other paradigm is longer more frequent strokes like light sanding, which puts less strain on me, but requires a more soft stone for speed.

Also, less pressure is good for a more consistent geometry for fine tuning.

For "standard thinning", I have my right hand around the tang, thumb on the blade face near heel, index finger on spine. Left hand, three fingers in blade (index, ring, pointing) if blade edge is away from me. If edge is pointing away I have my left thumb on the spine of the knife, and rest of all four fingers on blade. I have to be careful how I apply pressure and where on the blade my angles abrade, and how I lift up my right elbow or not as I move along the blade profile.

For thinning unlike sharpening, it's helpful to have the same "diagonal angle" of the blade profile with respect to the stone. We have the edge or thinning angle, and we have the angle of the edge perpendicular, diagonal, or parallel to the sharpening strokes. It's helpful to keep these consistent moving toward the tip, for knives with thick spines, or for profile changes, when thinning towards the tip, to avoid grinding the very tip to foil ... If you notice this tending to happen, which it does with me sometimes.

I've thinned while sitting on the ground, kneeling togishi style, and standing and whatever works is fine, whatever's convenient at the time.

It's easier to feel what's going on with my left hand near the edge, but you can practice having it a bit further to avoid the abrades fingertips. I have it close to the edge so I can check convexing near the edge and how close to the edge I'm getting with my angle. You can also check by how narrow the edge bevel looks -- assuming there's a edge there with consistent angle, and polish.

I have my left hand fingers not extended completely, they're slightly bent, however it is that I can apply the most pressure or have the most control.

If you hunch over the stone and knife you can apply more pressure but be careful with seems and feeling where it goes on the blade face to avoid any recurves or foil tips or whatnot. And check before for the grind and edge profile starting out.. there are some weird inconsistent Japanese knives out there.

Starting out, thinning speeds of material removal will be slow because of little contact between stone and blade. As the blade face evens out, you'll see more and more swarf being removed. This is where it gets tricky and and you have to keep in mind your "ideal" geometry and taper, and reconcile that with the existing one in the knife. A lot of knives can have thicker grinds toward the tip... And I often have to grind my own consistent blade geometry in

If your stone is slow and hard, and you find yourself having to apply a lot of pressure, consider using a nagura to speed things up, or a softer stone
 
For conserving and maximizing your energy expenditure, I find that thinning for cutting performance is mostly about the tip of the knife for me. It is one thing if you are trying to create the perfect geometry for polishing ala milan and ethompson, but if you just want to make your knife work better then grab the low hanging fruit.

Thinning the tip half of the knife will have a far greater impact on performance than thinning the heel half of the knife and take far less energy. Choil shots be damned. I want my tip to whisper through onions and garlic. I don't care one bit if the heel cracks carrots. That isn't relevant to my cutting technique. I don't use the heel of a knife to cut much of anything except bones, skewers, metal, plastic, etc. For those jobs I don't want thin geometry.

Here is a before and after of a work knife I just rehabbed. I fixed the tip on a belt sander and then thinned the front half of the knife a bit and added a new bevel. You can see by the polishing marks where I spent the most time thinning. And you can see that I actually made the heel thicker.

PXL_20231121_004831832.jpg

PXL_20240101_175822427~2.jpg
 
I think it is a very important subject and I remember asking about same question maybe 2 years ago on a facebook group and some people were just saying what the hell are you working on stones anyway, just use a belt grinder:rolleyes:. Any job you do is physical, you need to work in a good position whatever you do.
The first year I worked on stones I did not think enough about ergonomic, position, height and after about 6 month/1year my back start to be painful almost every time I was working and very very painful after several hours. It was very bad times and hopefully I stopped, took time to think about it and tried to improve the situation. Now two years later I am much much better, my back is quite well and I can work a day on the stones without too much troubles.
1. make your place ergonomic : height where the stone is must be adaptable, you need the table to be quite low so you can add when you need things to set the stone at the correct height. What is correct ? I guess that need to be a little personnal but I would say that horizontal forarm is about a good position, sometimes you need lower to put more pressure but as soon as you realise you start to bend your back and neck, your position is wrong. You must be standing, not too rigidly, confortably, relaxed.
Height is very important but so is the distance between you and the stone, don't put it too far away (because of your sink) because you will start to bend your back. It is also quite nice to be able to turn around your stone a little and not being stuck in one only front position. And think also about the angle of your stone with respect to your body, the stone can be horizontal but can also set a little up or down depending what you do. I don't use the stone down toward me but looks like a lot do. I mainly use the stone a step up toward me like @ethompson showed before, in the initial stage (stones 200/800 grit) and then go with stone horizontal.
Make the place confortable : I have put a special foam carpet on my floor, anti-fatigue mat I think it is called. These are really great. And put good light where you work (I like both very large source of light and spot source light, I have both where I work).
Last thing, I did not succed to set it really for now but having the possibility to alternate from standing to sitting position may be the best for your body.
2. Warm your body before starting and do some pauses about every hour or at least 2 hours. Go make a little walk for 5 minutes and stretch.
3. Your hand position. I think the hand holding the knife is most important. For being very precise I got my thumb at the heel of the knife close to the edge, my index is on the spine and other fingers wrap around the spine to the other side of the blade. That way I guess it not the most confortable but I am very precise... Try different things if this position is not the best for you, but your hand holding the blade must be able to hold it firmly being somewhat relaxed enough if possible. I don't always use that position with my hand (sometimes the index is just like the other fingers and is wrapped around the spine), but when I want to be very precise, I do it, and I like it.
You other hand will use genereally two fingers to put pressure where you need it. Sometimes I put them same spot, but often there is one close to the edge and other close to shinogi so I can put pressure down the edge with one and stabilise with the other or put pressure at shinogi and stabilise with the other one. Those fingers should not help you to move the blade on the stone (in my opinion) that's the job of the other hand holding the knife but help to guide and set the pressure where you need it. Sword polishers would even not put fingers like that on the blade to spot pressure but would just grab the blade at one end or put the end of the wrist on the blade. You can try if it work for you (they have set a position and gestures for quite some centuries now so it's not stupid to try the way they do, even if we're working a bit differently).
Oh, yes. Your way of holding is much better than what I was doing. Now the work is being done by my triceps and shoulders, not my fingers. Thank you.
 
@Rangen

A bit late to the party, lots of good things said, but saw your post early afternoon as I was working on a few knives, so I took the liberty to document a few things for you along the way. I'll try to be fast.

As already said and the most important thing, the height at which you can work comfortably. In my case I have to boost my stone holder + stone height with a brick, and my pan is also propped on two cork antislips that are almost 10mm thick. Won't talk numbers exactly, but I'm tall and that is what it takes.

IMG_4076.jpg

My body touching the countertop because I could basically picture than I'm naturally holding my hand at elbow height. In sharpening, I would say, shoulders are the propellers, elbows are the hinges, and wrists are the clamps - or locks or whatever. Thinning is the same.

IMG_4078.jpg

Sorry for the grainy shot, switched to front camera, and still not an easy picture to stabilize at arm's length. But you can easily see this space as fitting a stone and a knife at an angle and be about natural height.

But I focus on this to mostly say this tip: when sharpening or thinning, you do not want to hunch over, or have your hands raised lower. Both instances adding unnecessary tension to the neck and shoulder, as well as making your body want to naturally "lean onto" to shift the weight over. So my best tip is that before you should start anything, you should rather straighten your back, your neck, and prop your shoulders just a bit backwards - the proud stance, you know. That achieves a lot of things: it's easier to breathe, and you feel steady, and you're naturally adopting about as much strain as your shoulders can take without feeling any tension - thus describing as much as you want them to move backwards in sharpening, since it's much less strenuous to rather go forwards using the natural extension of your arms. You're also telling your body that the movement you intend to make is no leaning into, but a back and forth. You are essentially absolving it from having an influence in what is to come - only the propellers, hinges and clamps will work and define the weight shifted down your work.


Now in the proud stance, move the system back and forth. I gather that you would want your fingertips naturally getting to about mid stone at most - since naturally it's easier on the system to keep your elbows at your body backwards and just move them forward and back to inertia. So from the stance I took in picturing my above props, or this picture for sakes of equity to the similar picture above as well as to show my usual distance to the countertop -like 8 inches almost exactly quite naturally either in cutting sharpening or thinning...

IMG_4080.jpg


I push back the so-called sharpening station enough to get the natural inertia point where I want it to be.

IMG_4081.jpg


And put my fingers on the balance as I'd do in sharpening, with no further tension to the shoulders-elbows-wrists systems. My ugly reddish skin (sorry eczema, dishes, sharpening, and a lot of trips outside at -10*C in between) will be particularly helpful as we shall be able to track applied pressure just from the already greyish and swollen joint and knuckle of my two most powerful and authoritative fingers outside the essential thumb - further whitening there is equal to a real pressure I apply with the fingers mostly, and as different as what I'm about to try and show next.

Ok, no scientific experiment... What I want to show is how easy you can apply "pressure" without pressurizing the system anywhere as much. In fact, as unscientific as it is, in the next example I really tried to imagine a knife and a stone. I just did a complete thinning yesterday and today I resharpened that knife, so the balance prop setup and finger placement is really in just getting back the particular physical stance.

IMG_4082.jpg

So this is the natural sharpening "pressure" - 111g. Proud shoulders, inertia point, notice the relaxed and offset from center of the balance positioning of my fingers there, as if exactly "following along" something. In "thinning" this would rather represent the "most force" I'd apply in further polishing a bevel.

IMG_4083.jpg

See the knuckles? No much whitening but from further flex. This is the most important. In this picture I am simply "tensing" the hinges to clamps point. The forearm. My fingers naturally adopt a position that will at once receive that extra tension without fatiguing as much as they would keeping them in the relaxed position... but much more importantly, a natural adaptation to finger burns and applying the tension where you want it. About 250g in pressure simply tensing that section and angling my fingers to transmit it stably and forwardly.

IMG_4084.jpg

Still no further whitening of any knuckle. Now the tension is applied to the full system. From shoulders to wrists, fingers adopting the same position and place. I'm applying near to a pound of pressure now just by tensing the system. Yet this is no straining. It feels like the difference between holding nothing and holding one pound of meat.

In real life, the 250g pressure might be when I'm cutting a fresh bevel, doing a relief bevel, thinning/shaping, on something that's already pretty good. A better image would be the difference I tend to apply between the forward tip area vs. the heel area in thinning generally - usually getting the tip a bit thinner without having to break out of a full bevel motion.

The full pound of pressure feels like working a really thick crappy steel knife - on Imanishi 200 no less - just trying to inculcate it a edge shape I can much more easily follow and fine tune on a more behaved stone - but it's what is needed to get that shape without spending much time, nor straining myself over it.
 
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