Heavy Chef's Knife - A New Project

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I have a standing offer from overseas, but hopefully could find one closer to home.
 
Next heavy chef's will come with a Western handle and Kato geometry. 225mm lengh on the edge.

M
 
Hey Marko, your box is full, I may have what your looking for. It's not overseas, but there still is a border to cross sadly.
 
In one of the discussions I had with a pro and an avid user of heavy knives, he mentioned that the profile of Japanese heavy gyutos - more curve and slight rounding at the heel is to compensate blade-heavy blade. I thought about it and decided to limit a size of a heavy chef's and to add some weight to the handle to make the knife balance at the handle or slightly forward. This way I can keep the profile identical my lighter knives. The lengh will be limited to 225-240mm and the blade will be usable along the whole lengh (including heel).

I will make both D and Western handle versions. Have an interesting design (partially inspired by Devin's) in my head, though overall it will not be a departure from my current style. More soon.

M
 
I saw in another thread in my sub-forum that the preference seems to be for 240-270mm heavy gyuto. I am curious as to why?

In that length, particularly in 270mm, the balance point will be quite forward, that size would also require a large work area.How much advantage would 240-270mm have over 225mm?

Input is always much appreciated.

M
 
Most pro kitchens utilize 18x24 boards, which can accomodate a longer blade. The longer, heavier blade does more of the work for you, and allows one to process larger amounts of product at one time. Probably my biggest gripe with the kato, was the belly to tip transition. Too too much belly, and the tip is more upswept than I care for.
 
brainsausage said:
Most pro kitchens utilize 18x24 boards, which can accomodate a longer blade. The longer, heavier blade does more of the work for you, and allows one to process larger amounts of product at one time. Probably my biggest gripe with the kato, was the belly to tip transition. Too too much belly, and the tip is more upswept than I care for.
Click to expand...

+10
 
I prefer it to be a bit blade forward. One of the reasons I don't care for lighter knives or so called balanced knives. I think it's more useful to have the balance forward as it gives you a better reference point when guiding your cuts. I also tend to choke pretty far forward with my grip. Which is why I really like thick spines. I loved my CCK, but the spine is so thin, that I would get fatigue from trying to grip, as well as an irritated knife callus.
 
No pro, but I like a heavy knife and I definitely prefer it to be blade heavy...maybe 30mm forward on 210, 60mm forward on 240 and even more on a 270. I think my Heiji balanced ~2.5 inches out on the blade and felt awesome. I agree with Brainsausage that it gives you better control.
 
I have to echo the same sentiments as others on the large board space and the length of a blade actually being an asset (think of two flat-ish sweet spots on the blade heel to the start of the curve, curve to an inch short of the tip, followed by a thinned out tip). You can always add an end cap in nickel silver or brass like you do on the front of your handles to bring the balance a bit to the rear. I switched to 270 and now using other gyutos feels a bit off to me.
 
270, nose should be low, very little belly pretty much flat all the way save for a SLIGHT curve at the tip with a lot of tapering so that the tip is pretty thin at the spine aka a big ass santoku. balance should be just forward of the heel. and tall, at least 55mm
reasoning for this is more efficiency, the more knife touches the food the less movement your hands have to make to finish the job. sure you can whip a shorter laser around much faster, but in reality you're making a lot more movements and getting less processing done per stroke.
 
Marko Tsourkan said:
In one of the discussions I had with a pro and an avid user of heavy knives, he mentioned that the profile of Japanese heavy gyutos - more curve and slight rounding at the heel is to compensate blade-heavy blade. I thought about it and decided to limit a size of a heavy chef's and to add some weight to the handle to make the knife balance at the handle or slightly forward. This way I can keep the profile identical my lighter knives. The lengh will be limited to 225-240mm and the blade will be usable along the whole lengh (including heel).

I will make both D and Western handle versions. Have an interesting design (partially inspired by Devin's) in my head, though overall it will not be a departure from my current style. More soon.

M
Click to expand...

I guess the point on the profiles is true, never really thought about it before. Maybe because heavier gyutos are viewed as less nimble, they don't feel the need to make the tip as low or as pointy. Also with the knife being blade heavy, thus more fatigue when push cutting, a rocking capable profile is beneficial. I don't see why a sleeker/more aggressive profile wouldn't work though. The geometry might have something to do with it, if you have a thick spine, you need some blade height (or extreme distal taper) to get it thin enough at the edge.

I like them on the long side (245mm to 270mm at the edge) and blade heavy. My 240mm Heiji & Kato both balance about 60mm from the ferrule. The Heiji is slightly more blade heavy, but the Kato has a much bigger handle. I wouldn't want a heavy knife shorter than 240mm or one that wasn't forward balanced.

The height of the tip on my Kato doesn't bother me at all, but I certainly wouldn't want it any higher.
 
panda said:
270, nose should be low, very little belly pretty much flat all the way save for a SLIGHT curve at the tip with a lot of tapering so that the tip is pretty thin at the spine aka a big ass santoku. balance should be just forward of the heel. and tall, at least 55mm
reasoning for this is more efficiency, the more knife touches the food the less movement your hands have to make to finish the job. sure you can whip a shorter laser around much faster, but in reality you're making a lot more movements and getting less processing done per stroke.
Click to expand...

Right, a longer blade allows you to be more efficient, which is important when you have to move, re position and lift a heavier knife repeatedly.
 
You guys talk, I am listening :D.

This what I got thus far:

- 240, 255 and 270mm
- Balance forward
- Flatter profile
- Food release geometry
- Larger handles (D or Western)
- Distal taper and blade ground to zero at the edge
 
That is all what I am looking for in a heavier knife as well. Maybe I should go back to 270, I used one for about two years on a really small line and kinda gave up on them. Now that I have more room I should give it another try.
 
255 is about where I would want it.

One issue I have had with blade heavy knives is the blade naturally wanting to land right in the middle of where it curves to the tip which is also where it makes the least useful board contact. Handle material or an extended tang could help or even a weighted butt on the handle. Overall weight on a knife of this type doesn't really concern me if the added weight and momentum of the blade is focused on the most useful and productive sections of the knife.
 
I found with a knife that hit in the curve that the knife begged to be a rock chop specialty knife. It was like the knife wanted me to rock on products like cucumbers or crimini shrooms which is slower and less intuitive for me on tasks like these.
 
What do you guys think of a Western handle on 255mm heavy chef's? I am itching to do just that.

M
 
In my mind that could be a cool option, but might not suit those who like only Japanese style/looking knives. Being weightier and having a Western handle might make some feel it too closely resembles a German knife. Of course, in actuality you'll be addressing any of the issues guys have with them by dropping the tip, improving the grind, making it thinner BTE, moving the balance forward, losing the finger guard and producing the knife in a very good steel, with a great HT at a high HRC. However, the subconscious bias is strong enough that some might not be able to get past this until they are proven wrong. With that being said, you're a guy who can do it, and I'd love to try it out myself when all is said and done.
 
I won't limit it to one style of handles or another. Western handle is long overdue, and I thought it would be a good way to jump-start on this direction. Both Western and D would be an option. Octagonal handle will be done only on request.

In fact, this is the direction I am to take - offer all knives with both types of handles.

Western will be hidden tang for the reason that I find it more sanitary and moves less than full tang with scales.

M
 
Also, how much distance between handle and choil? What's this preference for Western handles?
 
Hey Marko. I've got a couple thoughts to weigh in. I have a Yoshikane 270 SLD that is simply awesome in it's size and weight. It's not terribly thick at the spine - thicker than my Shig, but not as thick as the Heiji I had (I'll have to measure it for you). I agree with what the other guys have wrote re: length and balance point - longer is better - 255 to 270 range. Blade heavy makes for ease of cutting. But I think mine is a tad too blade heavy - the handle in ho wood and light, and the blade is so heavy I'd like a slightly heavy handle to bring the balance point back. Too blade heavy can lead to fatigue because there's more effort spent balancing the knife. Also, mine has the S grind you described in your other thread; it's got some decent convexity as well and food release is quite good.

Love the idea of a western handled 255! Most yo-gyutos have the choil relatively flush with the front of the bolster on the handle. The Hattori FH has a slight curve from the choil to tang and that's nice for both sharpening and cutting use. Something like the KS gap on a was-handle is far too big. I dont' think the gap on a western needs to be as big as a yo, but some gap would be nice.
 
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