Help a young chef find new knives!

[ColinCB]

The original (factory) bevel was 50-50, symmetrical. The technique to sharpen it can be seen in JKI's video series on youtube, which is fantastic.

I don't know if there is a functional difference between soakers and "splash n go" stones, as far as I am aware there is none.

The next step up from the Carter we are recommending (one of his lower lines) is one of his higher lines or a custom maker. Some would argue that you can't get any better than his blades, at that level of quality what's better than what is very subjective.

There are always more things you could buy, but there really isn't anything more you need.

Ah, ok.

Is there any reason to change that? I mean the edge is going to need a lot of work, so is there a better edge to put on it?

on sokaing stones vs. splash and go, there does tend to be a functional difference (i would say this is true for 90% of what i see)... soaking stones tend to be faster cutters with better tactile feedback whereas splash and go stones tend to feel more slippery and dont usually cut quite as fast (especially on harder steels like sg2 and zdp-189)... again, there are exceptions, but i find this is true most of the time

Interesting. I think it was in your videos that you said the Gesshin 1000 splash n go stone was pretty good?





Is a ceramic knife even worth the trouble? I had one last year, but it ended up broken! (Not by me.)

Also, what styles of knives are most commonly used, eg. blade style (santoku, etc.).

I feel like a longer profile slicing knife would be a good start, but I do a lot of chopping, would a santoku be a good second knife to own?

 

[ThEoRy]

Gyuto 240mm, Sujihiki 270-300mm, Tojiro itk bread knife, Petty 150mm, pairing 90-120mm
Start with those shapes.

Welcome to the rabbit hole.

 

[jmforge]

Any places to buy these from the US?

You can buy the Carter knives from the man himself. He is back in the States now living in Oregon.

 

[JBroida]

Ah, ok.

Is there any reason to change that? I mean the edge is going to need a lot of work, so is there a better edge to put on it?




Interesting. I think it was in your videos that you said the Gesshin 1000 splash n go stone was pretty good?





Is a ceramic knife even worth the trouble? I had one last year, but it ended up broken! (Not by me.)

Also, what styles of knives are most commonly used, eg. blade style (santoku, etc.).

I feel like a longer profile slicing knife would be a good start, but I do a lot of chopping, would a santoku be a good second knife to own?

yeah, it is, but this rings true when you compare the gesshin 1k and 2k for example... another good example is how the 5k (or even 3k) super stone compares to the suehiro rika for that matter

 

[toek]

Is a ceramic knife even worth the trouble? I had one last year, but it ended up broken! (Not by me.)

I have 2 ceramic and they are both crap, not very sharp fragile and a pain to sharpen (so ive heard didnt bother sharpening them.)

 

[oivind_dahle]

As painful it is to admit, my favorite parer of all time was the 3" Kyrocera parer :S
To bad I broke it, hopefully I will have a new soon but this time from Bill Burke WOOT!!! BILL FTW!

 

[ColinCB]

So from what I can tell, this is what I should look into further:

-3 whetstones, 400-600/1k-2k/5k-6k and holder?
-A diamond leveling plate for the stones
-2 cutting boards, one wood, the other sani-tuff. Which wood is best (maple, walnut, etc.)
-2 or 3 knives.

As for the knives, a gyuto, a deba, a santoku, and petty are possible choices.

For now it seems that getting 1 knife may be optimal. I was thinking a Deba or Santoku would be a good choice. I do a lot of chopping, and that would go well with my Global chef's knife until I could get a better one.

Any suggestions?

 

[jm2hill]

So from what I can tell, this is what I should look into further:

-3 whetstones, 400-600/1k-2k/5k-6k and holder?
-A diamond leveling plate for the stones
-2 cutting boards, one wood, the other sani-tuff. Which wood is best (maple, walnut, etc.)
-2 or 3 knives.

As for the knives, a gyuto, a deba, a santoku, and petty are possible choices.

For now it seems that getting 1 knife may be optimal. I was thinking a Deba or Santoku would be a good choice. I do a lot of chopping, and that would go well with my Global chef's knife until I could get a better one.

Any suggestions?

just a quick note: Deba is not for chopping. It is used for filleting fish, the spine will be too thick to chop the way you would like. For chopping you would be looking at something like a nakiri, santoku, usuba (single bevel nakiri). Plenty of good choices out there.

If your set on a santoku a very good choice for a good looking knife and a good cutter would be to jump in on the group by Dave is having. Otherwise there are other good options for all 3 out there.

 

[jm2hill]

Gyuto 240mm, Sujihiki 270-300mm, Tojiro itk bread knife, Petty 150mm, pairing 90-120mm
Start with those shapes.

Welcome to the rabbit hole.

I second this list. Adding whatever else you want to the end of it. i.e Santoku/Usuba/Nakiri for vegetables

 

[goodchef1]

bear in mind, there were/are a lot of knives available that have been raved on in the past but have little to no talk about them now, mainly due to "been there, reviewed that" . So when you research new knives, try and broaden your scope. In knife selection and sharpening, corners cannot and should not be cut, some I hesitate to say, are more for advanced users and can find little joy in the hands of someone that cannot fully appreciate/enjoy it at present. How do you say, you have to earn your bones, like everyone else here.

 

[ColinCB]

just a quick note: Deba is not for chopping. It is used for filleting fish, the spine will be too thick to chop the way you would like. For chopping you would be looking at something like a nakiri, santoku, usuba (single bevel nakiri). Plenty of good choices out there.

If your set on a santoku a very good choice for a good looking knife and a good cutter would be to jump in on the group by Dave is having. Otherwise there are other good options for all 3 out there.

I just looked at the thickness of the Deba, I see what you mean! It's definitely not a thin blade, hah! I think a santoku would be the best choice then. I like the square tip of the others, but the shape of the santoku blade would probably be a better fit.

I second this list. Adding whatever else you want to the end of it. i.e Santoku/Usuba/Nakiri for vegetables

Thanks for the info!





As for the Sujihiki knives, are they primarily for slicing things? I assume so given the slender and long blades. A bit off topic, but are those the "typical" sushi knives?


Thanks!

 

[ColinCB]

bear in mind, there were/are a lot of knives available that have been raved on in the past but have little to no talk about them now, mainly due to "been there, reviewed that" . So when you research new knives, try and broaden your scope. In knife selection and sharpening, corners cannot and should not be cut, some I hesitate to say, are more for advanced users and can find little joy in the hands of someone that cannot fully appreciate/enjoy it at present. How do you say, you have to earn your bones, like everyone else here.

Of course. I try to look at other knives other than the FOTM (flavour of the month). It happens with everything from knives to audio equipment to gadgets.


What knives in your opinion should be looked at that are older?


I don't intend to skip right to the top knives! Not to mention I don't have the funds! If I can find a happy medium, that's good enough for me....for now.

 

[jm2hill]

I just looked at the thickness of the Deba, I see what you mean! It's definitely not a thin blade, hah! I think a santoku would be the best choice then. I like the square tip of the others, but the shape of the santoku blade would probably be a better fit.



Thanks for the info!





As for the Sujihiki knives, are they primarily for slicing things? I assume so given the slender and long blades. A bit off topic, but are those the "typical" sushi knives?


Thanks!

if you're interested in single bevel knives. Take a look at a kamagata usuba. Jon has one made by Yoshihiro at a very decent price for the knife. Its got the rounder face that is similar to a santoku.

The general sushi knife (used by most japanese chefs) is usually a yanagiba which is a single bevel type of sujihiki.

Sujihiki while generally known as slicers some around here will use them as all purpose knives and swear by them. That all comes down to matter of preference tho.

 

[ColinCB]

if you're interested in single bevel knives. Take a look at a kamagata usuba. Jon has one made by Yoshihiro at a very decent price for the knife. Its got the rounder face that is similar to a santoku.

The general sushi knife (used by most japanese chefs) is usually a yanagiba which is a single bevel type of sujihiki.

Sujihiki while generally known as slicers some around here will use them as all purpose knives and swear by them. That all comes down to matter of preference tho.

I think I'm more interested in blade shape than bevels.

So all yanagibas are sujihikis, but not all sujihikis are yanagibas?

 

[oivind_dahle]

Carter Funayuki
Funayuki ( 舟行 ) - Thinner than or Miroshi Deba, but the blade is wider. Standard definition is that the knife was specifically made for fisherman for ease of handling on the boats. However, some makers use the same term for thin, double grind knives, more like Gyuto style knife.

If you can afford a High Grade you should go for it. A little bird told me Carter is about to hit the store with lots of new blades, and perhaps with better handles. Somebody also wrote he might have a sale, but dont count on it A 6.5sun High Grade Funayuki will be perfect for you. This will way over your skills years to come!

 

[jm2hill]

I think I'm more interested in blade shape than bevels.

So all yanagibas are sujihikis, but not all sujihikis are yanagibas?

I would more say that they have the same shape. The essential difference is how they are used because of the different bevels.

Carter Funayuki
Funayuki ( 舟行 ) - Thinner than or Miroshi Deba, but the blade is wider. Standard definition is that the knife was specifically made for fisherman for ease of handling on the boats. However, some makers use the same term for thin, double grind knives, more like Gyuto style knife.

If you can afford a High Grade you should go for it. A little bird told me Carter is about to hit the store with lots of new blades, and perhaps with better handles. Somebody also wrote he might have a sale, but dont count on it A 6.5sun High Grade Funayuki will be perfect for you. This will way over your skills years to come!

A carter funayuki would be a great choice. Once those if ever go on sale I'll be buying one

 

[ColinCB]

$385! Damn.

If they have a sale, I'd consider it.

Do you have any guides that explain the different uses for bevels and blade shapes?

 

[Vertigo]

I think I'm more interested in blade shape than bevels.

So all yanagibas are sujihikis, but not all sujihikis are yanagibas?

They are completely different knives. It's easy to confuse things when their profiles look the same, but understand single bevel and double bevel knives have drastically different geometries.

I hope it's okay to hotlink from Jon's site, but here's a yanagiba:

And here's a sujihiki:

I doubt you're actually in the market for a true single bevel like a yanagiba or a deba or an usuba -- using these knives requires a different technique than you're most likely accustomed to.

As for the santoku thing.. I don't think I've seen anyone try to talk you out of it yet, so here's my go: a santoku is a gyuto that's had it's tip clipped off. Buy a longer gyuto with a bit of flat edge, and you can slice with it and chop with it. No need to have an 8" chefs knife and a santoku, when a 10" chef's knife will chop, slice, dice, etc.

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

I think I'm more interested in blade shape than bevels.

So all yanagibas are sujihikis, but not all sujihikis are yanagibas?

No. Although both are slicing knives, a yanagiba is a single-bevel knife designed for slicing raw fish. The name is derived from "willow leaf" because the blade shape resembles one.

A sujihiki is a double-bevel general purpose slicing knife. Most of the ones you will see have a clipped tip, but some have a "willow leaf" shape. Bladesmiths like Carter, Takeda or Moritaka call a double-bevel general purpose slicing knife a yanigiba instead of a sujihiki when the blade shape resembles a willow leaf. They may be technically correct, but this is where confusion sets in.

I suggest that for the moment, you steer clear of single-bevel knives, unless you are planning to become deeply involved in traditional Japanese preparation methods.

 

[jm2hill]

$385! Damn.

If they have a sale, I'd consider it.

Do you have any guides that explain the different uses for bevels and blade shapes?

http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/usetype/all/index.shtml

here is a list that talks about all the knives that will be mentioned and what they are used for. if you like a knife see what its used for and if it fits your criteria.

As far as the Santoku thing goes, I would agree it is unnecessary. Get a larger gyuto and learn to use that.

A lot gets talked about using multi-purpose knives and single-purpose knives. The gyuto and santoku are both multi-purpose however the gyuto just does it better.

I for one like cooking with multiple knives so when I do cook I usually have a petty/gyuto/nakiri all ready to use. So I may be hypocrite when I say just buy one, but if you are tight on budget and have stuff to buy still. Get the stuff you need.

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

$385! Damn.

If they have a sale, I'd consider it.

Do you have any guides that explain the different uses for bevels and blade shapes?

Colin,

There are many other knives that can be had for that kind of money, some of them are better than a Carter.

As far as a guide is concerned, I again point you to An Edge in the Kitchen by Chad Ward that I suggested in my first reply.

 

[ColinCB]

They are completely different knives. It's easy to confuse things when their profiles look the same, but understand single bevel and double bevel knives have drastically different geometries.

I hope it's okay to hotlink from Jon's site, but here's a yanagiba:

And here's a sujihiki:

I doubt you're actually in the market for a true single bevel like a yanagiba or a deba or an usuba -- using these knives requires a different technique than you're most likely accustomed to.

As for the santoku thing.. I don't think I've seen anyone try to talk you out of it yet, so here's my go: a santoku is a gyuto that's had it's tip clipped off. Buy a longer gyuto with a bit of flat edge, and you can slice with it and chop with it. No need to have an 8" chefs knife and a santoku, when a 10" chef's knife will chop, slice, dice, etc.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Definitely going to stick with double bevel knives for now.

As for the gyuto, I'll definitely look into doing that instead.

No. Although both are slicing knives, a yanagiba is a single-bevel knife designed for slicing raw fish. The name is derived from "willow leaf" because the blade shape resembles one.

A sujihiki is a double-bevel general purpose slicing knife. Most of the ones you will see have a clipped tip, but some have a "willow leaf" shape. Bladesmiths like Carter, Takeda or Moritaka call a double-bevel general purpose slicing knife a yanigiba instead of a sujihiki when the blade shape resembles a willow leaf. They may be technically correct, but this is where confusion sets in.

I suggest that for the moment, you steer clear of single-bevel knives, unless you are planning to become deeply involved in traditional Japanese preparation methods.

Ah, thanks.

I think I will steer clear of them for now.

http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/usetype/all/index.shtml

here is a list that talks about all the knives that will be mentioned and what they are used for. if you like a knife see what its used for and if it fits your criteria.

As far as the Santoku thing goes, I would agree it is unnecessary. Get a larger gyuto and learn to use that.

A lot gets talked about using multi-purpose knives and single-purpose knives. The gyuto and santoku are both multi-purpose however the gyuto just does it better.

I for one like cooking with multiple knives so when I do cook I usually have a petty/gyuto/nakiri all ready to use. So I may be hypocrite when I say just buy one, but if you are tight on budget and have stuff to buy still. Get the stuff you need.

Thanks, I just found that yesterday after a bit of searching! I also found the page with bevel type. Some seriously interesting bevels in there.

Colin,

There are many other knives that can be had for that kind of money, some of them are better than a Carter.

As far as a guide is concerned, I again point you to An Edge in the Kitchen by Chad Ward that I suggested in my first reply.

Thanks again. I'm definitely going to buy that book when I get a chance.


++++++++++++


As for getting a gyuto, I like this knife shape:
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...n-ino-210mm-white-2-hon-kasumi-wa-gyuto.html#

I don't necessarily mean the actual knife, just the shape.


Other than bevels, steel types, shape, etc. are there any major differences between craftsmen? Is "x" knife from "y" better than "x" knife from "z"? I don't mean for that question be loaded/start flaming, but I'm curious. There are just so many knives from so many craftsmen to look at.


Also, I want to thank all of you for helping me, it's truly amazing how welcoming people can be on the internet!

 

[Timthebeaver]

The shape of that Ino 210mm honkasumi is quite unique compared to other wa-gyutos. Beautiful knife.

As a starter, you cannot go wrong with the Carbonext (semi stainless) for western handled. The Ashi Hamono 210mm gyuto at Japanese knife Imports would be a good choice for stainless, also available in the Gesshin Ginga line (slightly harder at 61 HRC). There are also western-handled equivalents.

I like the Sugimoto 210 wa gyuto too. Thin, reasonably hard stainless, 90/10 asymmetric out of the box. It's a bargain at ~$75. It has a basic handle with a plastic bolster, but the blade is nice (imo).

 

[dehory]

As for the santoku thing.. I don't think I've seen anyone try to talk you out of it yet, so here's my go: a santoku is a gyuto that's had it's tip clipped off. Buy a longer gyuto with a bit of flat edge, and you can slice with it and chop with it. No need to have an 8" chefs knife and a santoku, when a 10" chef's knife will chop, slice, dice, etc.

As far as the Santoku thing goes, I would agree it is unnecessary. Get a larger gyuto and learn to use that.

A lot gets talked about using multi-purpose knives and single-purpose knives. The gyuto and santoku are both multi-purpose however the gyuto just does it better.

Just to sound a contrary note on the gyuto/santoku question...

Overall, a gyuto is definitely more versatile than a santoku, and in a restaurant kitchen or large production setting, there's absolutely no question which is the more effective knife.

However, when I'm cooking in my small apartment kitchen, I actually find myself reaching for a ~185mm santoku more often than the 240mm gyuto I use elsewhere. My cutting boards (28cm by 43cm) are really on the small side to make maximum use of the gyuto's length when I'm chopping, and my sink is too small to make a larger cutting board feasible. Not to mention that I very, very rarely need a slicing knife at home.

Speaking from that perspective, I'd be inclined to suggest a 120mm petty, a 180mm santoku (or 180-210mm gyuto - but it seems like the OP prefers the rounded shape of the former), and a good, long serrated knife for bread and assorted slicing duties. Depending on how often the OP needs to portion/slice large proteins (or moves somewhere with more room to work with), a 240+mm gyuto or suji could come later as he deems it necessary.

 

[ColinCB]

To be honest, I don't like the feeling of large knives. Anything over a 240mm or so would probably feel too large. It's kind of weird as I have large hands, but I feel much more agile and precise with a smaller knife, like a 210mm.

I'll be looking at specifics in the next few days and seeing what you guys say. Thanks!

 

[JohnnyChance]

To be honest, I don't like the feeling of large knives. Anything over a 240mm or so would probably feel too large. It's kind of weird as I have large hands, but I feel much more agile and precise with a smaller knife, like a 210mm.

I'll be looking at specifics in the next few days and seeing what you guys say. Thanks!

The more you use em, the more you get used to them. Plus a light and well balanced japanese knife is way more nimble than german or some other knives of similar length.

 

[ColinCB]

The more you use em, the more you get used to them. Plus a light and well balanced japanese knife is way more nimble than german or some other knives of similar length.

Definitely. I've mostly used heavy german knives, so I'm used to a lot of heft in the blade. Could be an eye opening experience to handle japanese steel.

 

[oivind_dahle]

What did you end up with?

 

[ColinCB]

I'm going to talk to Jon soon, but I'm thinking about a wa-gyuto and a petty for starters. That and a cutting board and some stones.

Let's go wallet!

 

[obtuse]

Definitely have a chat with Jon, you can always PM or email him too