Help Identifying Inherited Knives

[lakelandmusic]

Hello everyone, this is my first post here. I was passed down these three knives. I know my great grandfather used them, and gave them to my grandmother who I assume brought them over here from France back in the 1950's. Did some googling but couldn't find anything about who made them (other than the stamp on the blade) or what type of steel was used. I also would like to know if anything can be done to gently restore them. As you can see they are well worn.

A little history on my paternal grandmother's family. My grandmother lived in occupied France in Chatellerault during WWII. My grandfather Louis Pain was a tanker in the early days of the war, and was captured. He spent most of the war in a prisoner camp, and later escaped on a bicycle with two flat tires, almost starved to death. My grandfather met my grandmother after returning from the Korean war, when she was working as an au pair in the US.

Thanks for looking and have a good weekend folks.

 

[Mikeadunne]

Can’t help you, but very cool

 

[McMan]

From a little online digging, it looks like Chatellerault has an established knife-making history. The brand of the two on the left--Joyaux--was known mostly for pocket knives. You can see some of that carry-over with the bolster, which looks closer to a hunting knife than a kitchen knife plus the domed pin in the middle, which was something older pocket knives had (kitchen knives used flat rivets).

The black knife is some likely one of the Thiers/Sabatier makers. Likely from the 50s-60s (from your timeline, probably was new in the 50s then brought over). Rub the handle on your hand fast. It'll likely smell burnt, this is because it's hard rubber (like old pocket combs). This was replaced by plastic later.

From Chatellerault knife
"The name "Chatellerault" comes from the Herault Family who owned the city in the 9th Century (Chatel Herault). The first charter of cutlery dated 25/05/1771 shows the existence of 50 master cutlers, meaning that the cutlery industry has existed for a long time. At that time, the main manufacture was the following : swords and daggers, large and small daggers..."

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Maybe @Ericfg can help...?

 

[lakelandmusic]

From a little online digging, it looks like Chatellerault has an established knife-making history. The brand of the two on the left--Joyaux--was known mostly for pocket knives. You can see some of that carry-over with the bolster, which looks closer to a hunting knife than a kitchen knife plus the domed pin in the middle, which was something older pocket knives had (kitchen knives used flat rivets).

The black knife is some likely one of the Thiers/Sabatier makers. Likely from the 50s-60s (from your timeline, probably was new in the 50s then brought over). Rub the handle on your hand fast. It'll likely smell burnt, this is because it's hard rubber (like old pocket combs). This was replaced by plastic later.

From Chatellerault knife
"The name "Chatellerault" comes from the Herault Family who owned the city in the 9th Century (Chatel Herault). The first charter of cutlery dated 25/05/1771 shows the existence of 50 master cutlers, meaning that the cutlery industry has existed for a long time. At that time, the main manufacture was the following : swords and daggers, large and small daggers..."

Nice info! I searched Joyaux, which is probably why I didn't find anything. I took the Chatellerault as the city it was made and didn't think to search that. Pretty cool. Is there any specific methods I can use to clean them up? And also recondition the blades? I have no experience with that at all.

 

[McMan]

Nice info! I searched Joyaux, which is probably why I didn't find anything. I took the Chatellerault as the city it was made and didn't think to search that. Pretty cool. Is there any specific methods I can use to clean them up? And also recondition the blades? I have no experience with that at all.

Yes, Chatellerault was the city where they were made. Joyaux was the maker.
For cleaning, there are two ways to go--just get them clean and leave the age/wear, or remove the patina and by a bit more heavy handed.

For the two Joyaux, I'd just try to clean them and leave all the patina and wear. After all, that wear came from your family Just use a toothpick to get the gunk out of the seams/rivets. Clean with a no-scratch scrubbie. If the wood is dry, you can top with mineral oil or mineral oil/beeswax. This may darken the wood a bit though. The issue with the Joyaux is the 'frown' shape to the blade. Fixing this could be a headache given the bolsters. I'd suggest just getting these clean and using them as-is.

For the Sabatier, there's no way those grinding marks all over the blade are coming out short of a power tools and time. I'd just try to clean it and use it. Hit it with some Bar Keeper's friend scrubbed with the end of a wine cork. Wash. Then some Flitz (a metal cleaner/polish). This'll remove all the patina though, but it'll come back quickly. Fortunately, there doesn't see to a be a frown to the edge profile. The tip is too high (probably broke once). So, remove just a bit from the spine side of the tip to lower the tip and make it pointier. Like this:

 

[lakelandmusic]

Yes, Chatellerault was the city where they were made. Joyaux was the maker.
For cleaning, there are two ways to go--just get them clean and leave the age/wear, or remove the patina and by a bit more heavy handed.

For the two Joyaux, I'd just try to clean them and leave all the patina and wear. After all, that wear came from your family Just use a toothpick to get the gunk out of the seams/rivets. Clean with a no-scratch scrubbie. If the wood is dry, you can top with mineral oil or mineral oil/beeswax. This may darken the wood a bit though. The issue with the Joyaux is the 'frown' shape to the blade. Fixing this could be a headache given the bolsters. I'd suggest just getting these clean and using them as-is.

For the Sabatier, there's no way those grinding marks all over the blade are coming out short of a power tools and time. I'd just try to clean it and use it. Hit it with some Bar Keeper's friend scrubbed with the end of a wine cork. Wash. Then some Flitz (a metal cleaner/polish). This'll remove all the patina though, but it'll come back quickly. Fortunately, there doesn't see to a be a frown to the edge profile. The tip is too high (probably broke once). So, remove just a bit from the spine side of the tip to lower the tip and make it pointier. Like this:

Thank you very much for the guidance. I've got some Flitz for my guitar frets. When you say frown, that's uneven wear across the edge of the blade right?

 

[McMan]

Thank you very much for the guidance. I've got some Flitz for my guitar frets. When you say frown, that's uneven wear across the edge of the blade right?

Yeah. Like this:

Looks like there may be a slight one on the top knife too. Hard to tell from the pic through because when it's vertical it looks straight. You can tell easily just by putting the knife on a board then shining a light behind the blade. If light comes from under the blade, this means it's not making consistent contact, and so is a 'frown'.

 

[Ericfg]

Maybe @Ericfg can help...?

I know next to nothing about French makers, but I do have a a literal French connection so I'll send him some pix and report back if he has any infos.

 

[Ericfg]

Here's my connection's reply:

"so I couldn't find much about those knives since they're not from Thiers, they're not in the Thiers rand database.

They're from another city called, you guessed it, Chatellerault.

So I've learned that Chatellerault was a major knifemaking city in the 1800's with as much as 1000 knifemakers just before the revolution.
Then it started to diminish through the 19th century. And then back up again around world war 2 when the city started producing weapons for the war.

Today it seems they're more well known for folding blades, stiletto type.

There's actually a whole chapter of a book online about Chatellerault
Le Couteau - Les CHATELLERAULT **
quite fascinating.

But all the chapters are about traditional locals folding knives.

So what does that tell us ? Not much.

I found one ebay listing for a modern folding knife from this knifemaker

And one auction listening for tale knives, listed as "early 20th century"

So I would go out on a limb and say : Joyaux Chatellerault was a small brand from a very reputable knifemaking city, active through the whole 20th century but that remained pretty unknown.
They obviously made kitchen knives, table knives and folding knives. The folding knife is in such good shape and looks modern, I'd say it can't be older than the 1970's.
So we could say the brand was active from maybe 1920 to 1970 ? And the knives you got would be from somewhere into that large period.

See ... lots of uncertainty.

but they're certainly cool knives from a city with lots of knifemaking history ! just not well known today for kitchen knives.

 

[Bagotnj]

I agree that the black knife is a sabatier from the 1950s-1960s. I have a sabatier marked knife from that time period with the same one-piece metal construction, brass rivets, and ebony wood handles.