Pikehaus
Somebody
So, I have a vitrified aluminium oxide 100/400 combo stone. After the 400 grit, I can get paper to slice cut paper cleanly but not push cut. Should I get it sharper before progressing to 1k?
How sharp should I be able to get a knife on 400 grit?
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If it’s a kitchen knife cut some of what it’s typically used for. Butchery knives I like sub 1k. Sashimi knives I like used at 12k+.
You always set sharpness on your coarsest stone, as you go finer you’ll be refining the egde
You always set sharpness on your coarsest stone, as you go finer you’ll be refining the egde
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Make sure to deburr as far as you can on your 400. It should be crazy sharp. Finer edges work more smoothly, and finer grits for maintenance don't waste material. If your edge is not OK with the first stone, you can't expect further improvement with the next ones. You go to the next stone if the burr only flips, even with the lightest touch, but doesn't get any smaller. So, the first stone takes by far the most time.
Pikehaus
Somebody
I run the blade edge through a wooden base. Is this a good deburring technique?
For stubborn burrs it works. But should never be the last step.
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With stubborn burrs it is likely to leave a damaged edge behind. So it should be followed by very light edge leading strokes to restore the apex. A lot depends on the steel that is concerned. It shouldn't be that hard to feel a 400-burr. You should be able to establish for yourself whether the burr is gone. I do have my doubts. In most cases where I have used cork or soft wood it did reduce the burr a bit, but did certainly not removed it entirely. Most it did was recentering the burr. Better try to push all debris on the other side by stropping on your hand or on rough leather, and abrade it there, and the other way around.
Not really.
"Deburring" will usually take most of the time I spend sharpening. It can consist of a few steps. What I usually do is:
1) Minimise the burr: By not continuing to grind when I have already got a nice even burr (sometimes you do need to do this if you are trying to create an edge bevel over an existing microbevel).
2) Reduce the burr by gradually reducing pressure on the coarsest stone in the progression. See Pete Nowlan's (@Sailor) Knifeplanet.net sharpening school for a great video on this. You will feel (and probably see) bits of burr breaking off during the lower pressure levels.
3) Polishing the resulting edge on subsequent stones in the progression WITH VERY LIGHT PRESSURE ONLY.
3) Feather-light edge leading strokes on the final stone to weaken any residual burr by flipping it from side to side. I tend to do it only 2-3 times each side on simple carbon steels but more like 10 times on more complex steels.
4) A VERY LIGHT longitudinal stroke along the length of the edge on the side of the burr to remove the remaining burr.
5) Very light dragging through cork or hard felt (optional).
The alternative is to use the Kippington deburring method (search "Kippington deburring video"). I will warn you that it "feels wrong" the first time you do it. But it works very well.
The upside is that it's simple and quick. It also produces a microbevel which works well with stainless and other complex steels (they won't sustain as acute an edge angle due to carbide volume). The downside of a microbevel is that it's difficult to get the angle just right if you want to do a touch up on a fine stone, so you may have to use a medium stone to get rid of the microbevel.
FWIW, I tend to use the first technique for carbon and semistainless steels and the second one for stainless or other highly alloyed steels.
KingShapton
Senior Member
I would basically answer "definitely" to this question... but it also depends a bit on the stone used.
With a quality stone like the Naniwa Chosera/Pro 400 without a doubt. Hell, you can shave arm hair after that stone.
Norton Crystolon coarse (120 grit), pushcut through paper and cigarette paper works directly from this stone. You can cut curves in a piece of paper! The same applies to Norton India coarse. In both cases, however, this requires a very light hand when sharpening, so really controlled as little pressure as possible at the end. And it takes time!
But I also have a coarse (120/320 grit), very cheap aluminum oxide combination stone lying around here, bought in an Asian shop. With this stone, the described is not possible, in that case I'll be happy if I can slice paper cleanly after this stone. More is not possible with this stone, at least not for me. No matter how much time I spend with it, I'm always happy when I put it down and continue to use it as a doorstop.
I had a similar experience with a Naniwa 220 grit from one of Naniwa's very inexpensive series. I ended up giving the stone to someone I didn't like - I don't have enough doors to keep every bad stone.
I list these examples to make it clear that there really is a difference in the stones used and your results.
But in principle, after a 400 grit stone, a pushcut through paper should be possible without any problems. Usually also shaving of arm hair, minimally "scraping off" arm hair.
Which brings me to the question what kind of stone do you have? Maybe it's the stone itself?!
@TB_London and @Benuser are absolutely right about one thing (among others) - the first stone is where you spend most of your time and create the sharpness.
Often the mistake really is that you are unconsciously "afraid" of a coarse stone and that you tend to go too quickly from this stone to the next finer stone. And that although the work on the coarse stone is not yet finished.
In other words, if the foundation isn't done well then do whatever you want, the house will remain unstable, never be as good as it could be, and eventually collapse far too soon.
Pikehaus
Somebody
My stone is not very good. Just some really cheap
My stone is very cheap stuff. No better than whatever you got in that Asian store.
That...
I'd add... TO ME coarse stones have "their way" to deburr. Well all stones do I guess but what I obviously mean is being so coarse, they can easily mess up things so far well done. Like, instantly or so. That goes for burrs too. Never so true I guess. So if one just relies on "a repetitive technique".... well in fact it's pretty good and will manage to get to good results too. But with some coarse stones.. that doesn't work and you might be surprised what does work best. Or you might find out after lots of trials on a few different steels that the stone just deburrs uncleanly after all. But it's... kind of rare really. As a sharpener I became much sooner afraid of how I progressed back in the days than where I started.
Not saying this against the vibe, just bringing a point that not so long ago I would just blame myself without understanding the stone or the steel or my own supposed "habits" or "techniques" for that matter as related to the stone and material at hand.
KingShapton
Senior Member
So as expected.
The simplest solution would be to buy a good coarse stone. In this way you could quickly find out whether it is the stone, as suspected, or your technique.
I assume you are just starting to sharpen?!
In that case, I would really recommend the mentioned Naniwa Chosera/Pro 400 as the first good-quality coarse stone for kitchen knives. The stone is splash & go, its characteristics are pleasant in the middle of the road and, with a bit of experience, this stone gives really good results. And at the same time it's not too coarse, a nice entry point.
This stone and a flattening solution - coarse stones have to be flattened more often, that's in the nature of things. And then the usual, lots of exercise and muscle memory and then repeat. Then it works, but it takes time to develop the skill.
In addition to the pressure control already mentioned, it is also really important to control the progress on the cutting edge. Burr detection is one thing, I also recommend paying attention to the light reflections at the apex. As long as the apex is still reflecting light, the apex has not yet been fully reached. Often it's just a small spot on the edge. The sharpie trick can also be helpful in the beginning.
Take the time you need to get a really good result.
@ModRQC also raised a very good argument, but that too requires experience to be gained.
And another obligatory tip - don't start with your best knife on the coarse stone, as I said before, it takes time to gain experience in handling it. And a coarse stone is fast, so it's easy to make sharpening mistakes, especially in the beginning. Better these mistakes happen with a practice knife than with a good one.
If there was ever a good argument to get a Victorinox... it's extra sharpening points on top of being sure cheap money is well spent.
Their SS just as soft and poor that you'll need to level up some and try stuff and see for yourself, yet as far as I look on soft, rather soft/hard, or hard SS steel, a few experience with a Vic can make one pretty ready until going "exotic" PMs or poor VG-10... Cromova and all that. What I mean is Victo 1.4110 is poor enough and good enough than getting stronger out of it is rather easy. I just would advise against any old worn out Victo. My personal experience of those is that they get extremely difficult to sharpen "properly" - while getting any "sharper" is easy, but that won't tell you much of your skills. Not the opposing limit which is my point, and there it's not a question of technique but of abused steel that won't "take to anything much". If a knife is a prime suspect of such abuse, it's either stamped "'Made in China" and then second likelihood is a Victorinox. Wild guess probably often times applicable.
Their SS just as soft and poor that you'll need to level up some and try stuff and see for yourself, yet as far as I look on soft, rather soft/hard, or hard SS steel, a few experience with a Vic can make one pretty ready until going "exotic" PMs or poor VG-10... Cromova and all that. What I mean is Victo 1.4110 is poor enough and good enough than getting stronger out of it is rather easy. I just would advise against any old worn out Victo. My personal experience of those is that they get extremely difficult to sharpen "properly" - while getting any "sharper" is easy, but that won't tell you much of your skills. Not the opposing limit which is my point, and there it's not a question of technique but of abused steel that won't "take to anything much". If a knife is a prime suspect of such abuse, it's either stamped "'Made in China" and then second likelihood is a Victorinox. Wild guess probably often times applicable.
Lots of good detailed answers from the experts already. But let me throw my hat into the ring (and be a little contrary by the sound of it)...
Of course you can do that jump after your 400 grit edge. If you’ve raised burrs both sides and it now cuts paper, then you have an apex that meets. And a 1k stone will easily sort out a not-completely-perfect 400 grit edge, whether or not it’s been fully deburred. No question about it at all.
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With the caveat that - if the reason that your 400 grit edge wasn't all that great was because you're still learning your technique, then a 1k stone isn't going to help obviously. Though I'm guessing that's not the problem... I've used various cheap $3 Chinese supermarket AlOx stones, still got one somewhere I think, and they're f-ing awful.
(And if you'd like a good quality vitrified SiC or AlOx stone then ping me a message, I probably have something spare. Yours for the cost of post).
Of course you can do that jump after your 400 grit edge. If you’ve raised burrs both sides and it now cuts paper, then you have an apex that meets. And a 1k stone will easily sort out a not-completely-perfect 400 grit edge, whether or not it’s been fully deburred. No question about it at all.
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With the caveat that - if the reason that your 400 grit edge wasn't all that great was because you're still learning your technique, then a 1k stone isn't going to help obviously. Though I'm guessing that's not the problem... I've used various cheap $3 Chinese supermarket AlOx stones, still got one somewhere I think, and they're f-ing awful.
(And if you'd like a good quality vitrified SiC or AlOx stone then ping me a message, I probably have something spare. Yours for the cost of post).
Is it time for my cardboard tube deburring video...? I think it is!
(Just a bit of fun btw, you probably shouldn't deburr like this. But FWIW - that was coming off a 400 ish grit stone from memory.)
(Just a bit of fun btw, you probably shouldn't deburr like this. But FWIW - that was coming off a 400 ish grit stone from memory.)
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KingShapton
Senior Member
