Japanese Knife Tier List

Japanese Knives - by Tokushu Knife
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Luckily someone else on the forum has likely done all of that, and search can help you find them. For example, for potatoes, you can search for “naughty schoolboy”.
 
Dan- said:
Luckily someone else on the forum has likely done all of that, and search can help you find them. For example, for potatoes, you can search for “naughty schoolboy”.
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The problem is that most discussions are about the same few knives. Toyama, Fujiwara, and Kato, among others.

You'll find very few, if any discussions on a lot of the knives on my list.
 
What's an "S" tier? Why does it go, S, A, B, C, etc?

My main issue with a tier system is that it over simplifies qualities of a knife and gives the impression that they are one- dimensional (i.e.: on a scale from bad to good). At the very least it prioritises your personal opinion about which qualities are important and ignores the fact that these qualities are situation dependent.

FWIW, some of the many qualities that I look at are:
Steel hardness, toughness and edge retention.
How the steel sharpens and how it feels while being sharpened.
The knife's profile.
The knife's grind and how this affects wedging and food release (stiction and food shedding). How well the tradeoff between wedging and food release is executed.
Fit and finish, including handle, blade finish, spine and choil rounding.
The balance and taper of the blade.
How easy the knife is to maintain .

Different knives are good at different things.

For example, I find a Watanabe Pro ironclad to be an excellent heavy food release knife with a very hard (and somewhat brittle) heat treatment of blue2. Quite nice to sharpen and has decent edge retention. It has a pretty forward balance, especially with the ho handle.

It wedges somewhat in hard foods but the overall trade-off between thinness and food release is pretty well executed. Fit and finish is somewhat rustic.

So it's legendary in some ways and somewhat ordinary in others. Which is pretty close to as good as it gets. Certainly, there is no "perfect knife".

It's hard to fit this degree of complexity into a tier system.
 
Infrared said:
The problem is that most discussions are about the same few knives. Toyama, Fujiwara, and Kato, among others.

You'll find very few, if any discussions on a lot of the knives on my list.
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I don't think that's actually the case, though TF, Watoyama and Katos are popular with many members here. If you think there are "many" knives on your list that warrant discussion, then put up posts about them?
 
Infrared said:
Interesting style. Every ranking/listing system has weaknesses. My tier list is no exception. For example, how do I rank a knife that is great at cutting everything except for an ingredient or two {usually carrots}? Sub rankings could help with that (best carrot cutter, best for potatoes, etc.).

First time doing something like this, so I'm sure I have a lot to learn.
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I do lists often, but usually along the lines of 'My Current Top 3 Gyutos,' 'My Top 10 Gyutos,' 'My Current Top 3 Sujihikis,' '5 Knives I'd Save If My Apartment Were on Fire,' etc.

Intrigued by your list, mostly because I'm unfamiliar with a lot of the makers on it. Also interesting because the knives one buys are a reflection of where they shop; how they use them; where they learn about them; personal taste; how much money they feel comfortable spending on kitchen knives; etc.

Your list is also noticeably Japan-centric.
 
TBH, easier for me to grade on a curve—parameters are performance, steel quality, construction, je ne sais quoi, etc.

Screen Shot 2023-06-15 at 2.43.31 PM.png
 

Kuwabara White #2 210mm Gyuto Overview​

​
Measurements
Length: 215mm
Height: 48mm
Spine: 3.9mm
Weight: 184g

Cutting Performance
Potatoes: S (no sticking, no suctioning, no resistance)
Onions: S (no wedging, easy horizontal cuts)
Carrots: A (no wedging or cracking, minimal resistance)

Steel
Edge retention: 4+ weeks (daily home use, large variety of vegetables)
Toughness: Some microchipping (I'm heavy-handed)
Ease of sharpening: A
Edge taking: S (very aggressive edge)

Geometry
  • Right hira (edge down, tip away) starts hollow at the heel, then convex during the next 1/4, hollow again, and finally convex at the tip.
  • Left hira is hollow throughout.
  • Right kireha is heavily convex, left side less so.
  • Very low grind.
  • Minimal distal taper.
Fit and Finish
  • Rounded choil.
  • Straight handle installation.
  • Coarse polish.
  • Very dark, textured kurouchi, some flaking.
Miscellaneous Thoughts
  • One of the best cutting feels I've experienced . Simply falls through produce.\
  • Food release is only second to Takeda.
  • I've found potatoes, onions, and carrots to be a good indicator for how a knife cuts. I know sweet potatoes are also a good test, but I don't really cut enough of them.
  • Extremely sharp out of the box
  • I also have a nakiri and hakata from Kuwabara. Aside from the measurements, everything else applies.
  • Unfortunately, prices have skyrocketed recently for these knives. Not sure if I'll be getting more

Suggestions for improvements are welcome.
 
Infrared said:

Kuwabara White #2 210mm Gyuto Overview​

​
Measurements
Length: 215mm
Height: 48mm
Spine: 3.9mm
Weight: 184g

Cutting Performance
Potatoes: S (no sticking, no suctioning, no resistance)
Onions: S (no wedging, easy horizontal cuts)
Carrots: A (no wedging or cracking, minimal resistance)

Steel
Edge retention: 4+ weeks (daily home use, large variety of vegetables)
Toughness: Some microchipping (I'm heavy-handed)
Ease of sharpening: A
Edge taking: S (very aggressive edge)

Geometry
  • Right hira (edge down, tip away) starts hollow at the heel, then convex during the next 1/4, hollow again, and finally convex at the tip.
  • Left hira is hollow throughout.
  • Right kireha is heavily convex, left side less so.
  • Very low grind.
  • Minimal distal taper.
Fit and Finish
  • Rounded choil.
  • Straight handle installation.
  • Coarse polish.
  • Very dark, textured kurouchi, some flaking.
Miscellaneous Thoughts
  • One of the best cutting feels I've experienced . Simply falls through produce.\
  • Food release is only second to Takeda.
  • I've found potatoes, onions, and carrots to be a good indicator for how a knife cuts. I know sweet potatoes are also a good test, but I don't really cut enough of them.
  • Extremely sharp out of the box
  • I also have a nakiri and hakata from Kuwabara. Aside from the measurements, everything else applies.
  • Unfortunately, prices have skyrocketed recently for these knives. Not sure if I'll be getting more

Suggestions for improvements are welcome.
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I'll have to ask about him the next time I send a message over to Michael.
 
Infrared said:

Kuwabara White #2 210mm Gyuto Overview​

​
Measurements
Length: 215mm
Height: 48mm
Spine: 3.9mm
Weight: 184g

Cutting Performance
Potatoes: S (no sticking, no suctioning, no resistance)
Onions: S (no wedging, easy horizontal cuts)
Carrots: A (no wedging or cracking, minimal resistance)

Steel
Edge retention: 4+ weeks (daily home use, large variety of vegetables)
Toughness: Some microchipping (I'm heavy-handed)
Ease of sharpening: A
Edge taking: S (very aggressive edge)

Geometry
  • Right hira (edge down, tip away) starts hollow at the heel, then convex during the next 1/4, hollow again, and finally convex at the tip.
  • Left hira is hollow throughout.
  • Right kireha is heavily convex, left side less so.
  • Very low grind.
  • Minimal distal taper.
Fit and Finish
  • Rounded choil.
  • Straight handle installation.
  • Coarse polish.
  • Very dark, textured kurouchi, some flaking.
Miscellaneous Thoughts
  • One of the best cutting feels I've experienced . Simply falls through produce.\
  • Food release is only second to Takeda.
  • I've found potatoes, onions, and carrots to be a good indicator for how a knife cuts. I know sweet potatoes are also a good test, but I don't really cut enough of them.
  • Extremely sharp out of the box
  • I also have a nakiri and hakata from Kuwabara. Aside from the measurements, everything else applies.
  • Unfortunately, prices have skyrocketed recently for these knives. Not sure if I'll be getting more

Suggestions for improvements are welcome.
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My main suggestion would be to make individual review posts in the review section. Format or length doesn't really matter, but it helps if there's some frame of reference or comparison... IMO the more descriptive the better, but especially when it describes what characterizes the knife's performance and ergonomics. That way people can use the reviews as a knowledge base to base their decisions on. There's probably some good examples in there to look at for inspiration.
 
Jovidah said:
My main suggestion would be to make individual review posts in the review section. Format or length doesn't really matter, but it helps if there's some frame of reference or comparison... IMO the more descriptive the better, but especially when it describes what characterizes the knife's performance and ergonomics. That way people can use the reviews as a knowledge base to base their decisions on. There's probably some good examples in there to look at for inspiration.
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And pictures. That always makes reviews more interesting and informative
 
If someone is particularly interested in a detailed review of a knife in the list, let me know and I'll prioritize it.
 
Infrared said:
If someone is particularly interested in a detailed review of a knife in the list, let me know and I'll prioritize it.
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I vote the Takagi honyaki - to see what your virtually unusable grading means and to get ideas of where it was usable.

(I've found mine to good for slicing /dicing raw meats)
 
Dull_Apex said:
I vote the Takagi honyaki - to see what your virtually unusable grading means and to get ideas of where it was usable.

(I've found mine to good for slicing /dicing raw meats)
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Unfortunately I've extensively thinned that knife. Completely different knife now. I can review the "upgraded" version if you want.
 
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I think a simple tier list is fine. I applaud. You stated clearly what gets you to the top or bottom.

Of course it's one opinion among many, that's what a forum IS.

I'm sorry this list got some negative feedback. Seeing less common knives in some context is great.

Also +1 for Murata, don't see him enough. Just great steel. Admittedly of the three I've had, two wanted a little thinning. But such good steel on all, good performance for the price.
 
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I was tempted to pick up a Kanjo Western but in ZDP-189 but eventually passed because it appeared really thick BTE with a hefty tip. Was the HAP40 version the same?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts about it.
 
DitmasPork said:
For me, it would be useful to know the reason why you felt the need to thin the knife extensively—did the knife have big performance issues that called for thinning?
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A 240mm gyuto. It wedged bad enough that it felt dangerous using it. To the point where I had to use both hands and some body weight to get it to cut through a carrot or even a large onion. Great for tomatoes, and like @Dull_Apex said, probably perfect for meat.

I spent hours thinning it because the steel is amazing. Possibly the best I've used up to this point. Excellent edge retention and extremely easy to sharpen.

captaincaed said:
Also +1 for Murata, don't see him enough. Just great steel. Admittedly of the three I've had, two wanted a little thinning. But such good steel on all, good performance for the price.
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Agreed. I just recently used it and was surprised by how well it did cutting up some onions. One the thinnest tips I've used.

Very easy to sharpen, like many knives from the region.

Duukt said:
I was tempted to pick up a Kanjo Western but in ZDP-189 but eventually passed because it appeared really thick BTE with a hefty tip. Was the HAP40 version the same?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts about it.
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I find it very thin behind the edge. Some cracking and resistance on carrots, but nothing too bad. Edge retention is great. I tend to finish the edge at 1000 grit or less. Any higher and the edge loses feeling.

The core steel will stain easily. Will even rust if left wet for a couple hours.
 
In my opinion, all of these knives would be in the same tier for me. Probably C or lower, maybe something jumps to a B….
 
Are you looking to find any knives that may make you perceive these ones differently? I feel like it would be hard for me to put some of these as a S or A tier. I know its relative to your own experience but broadening some more makers may make you rank a little more harshly on the higher tiers.
 
enrico l said:
Are you looking to find any knives that may make you perceive these ones differently? I feel like it would be hard for me to put some of these as a S or A tier. I know its relative to your own experience but broadening some more makers may make you rank a little more harshly on the higher tiers.
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I'm mainly interested in Japanese made Knives. I'd consider a Western maker if it wasn't too pricey (under $400?) and I didn't have to "hunt" for it.
 
Following the advice of @Jovidah, @deltaplex, and others I've decided to make a separate topic for the detailed review of the Yoshimitsu Fugen.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/yoshimitsu-fugen-white-1-review.65951/
This is also a good reminder (for me as well) why you should extensively use a knife before passing judgment. I previously used the Yoshimitsu on some normal potatoes and there were no issues. Just recently I cut up some very hard and starchy ones and it struggled quite a bit.

I was hoping to modify the initial post, but I guess you can't edit it after a day or two?
 
Yes and no. My list for instance is fluid, knives in a constant state of jockeying for position of the top spots—my tastes change, a knife that’s been meh, sometimes works its way up the latter. Took me a few years to come around and like my 240 Watanabe iron clad gyuto. Making a list of best gyutos is challenging—competition in my knife drawer is fierce—I’ve never bought a bad knife. Although, over the years there’s a pretty solid top 10 list of gyutos for me—performance, craftsmanship, value, aesthetics, maker are typically my priorities for judging.
 
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It's difficult to know what knives will grow on you over time as you evaluate their strengths and weaknesses. I know what stood out are knives that instantly made me smile when I made the first cut though; one was a 240 Toyama SS, one of my favorite J-knife of all time, it's just good at everything. And the other was a Yoshi.
 
myguidingmoonlight said:
It's difficult to know what knives will grow on you over time as you evaluate their strengths and weaknesses. I know what stood out are knives that instantly made me smile when I made the first cut though; one was a 240 Toyama SS, one of my favorite J-knife of all time, it's just good at everything. And the other was a Yoshi.
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As many other commenters here have touched on, while there's some common agreements, so much of it is subjective. I do like and use my 240 Watanabe, but at 276g it's dropped down the pecking order as I usually favor lighter knives these days—still a fantastic cutter.
There're some knives I have that check all the boxes for a really good knife—but occasionally a knife with faults and shortcomings has more specialness and generally performs better for me.
 
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