Kagekiyo vs Toyama

[Perzua]

Hello

Please tell me, what would you prefer ? Both blue steel 1 vs 2. Consider Toyama K-Tip new profile on JNS. Yesterday I have pleasure to use Kagekiyo and its pretty nice blade.

 

[Nemo]

These are pretty different knives.

Both are great in their own way.

What are you looking for in a knife?

 

[Perzua]

Best performance. Kagekiyo is great but i prefer heavier knifes. I dont now how Toyama cuts. I hate when blade stuck in sweet potato or carrots.

 

[Jason183]

Best performance on hard root veggies? Full convex Laser grind is your best bet.

 

[superworrier]

If you want a heavier knife with good performance Toyama sounds right up your alley

 

[kpham12]

Two old videos of my ironclad Toyama on dense vegetables. I think I am like the 4th owner so I did a little thinning before testing in the video. I’ve not used stainless clad Toyama, but I’ve used ironclad Watanabe and Toyama and stainless clad Watanabe which should be similar enough to the stainless clad Toyama. In my experience, the stainless clad is a little thinner and a little better in terms of “pure cutting”, including on carrots and sweet potatoes.



Kagekiyo looks very thin, but still a wide bevel so you will feel the shinogi when cutting. But I remember this video (not mine) of a blue steel Kagekiyo on squash and it looks like it cuts great, no wedging.



Maybe get the stainless clad Toyama because it’s heavier and resell if you don’t like it. Probably lose a little money, but that’s the price of trying knives . Hope this helps.

 

[Nemo]

Cutting performance is a multifaceted concept.

Things to consider include:
1. Amount of wedging in hard foods.
2. Amount of stiction in wet foods.
3. Food shedding (resistance to food sticking to the blade face).
4. Blade profile.

The first 3 are determined by the grind of the knife.
2 and 3 are closely related features which often go under the moniker "food release".

It turns out that there is a trade-off between wedging and food release. Thicker (and therefore heavier) knives tend to wedge more but can have superior food release (assuming the grind is executed correctly). This is because grind features that promote food release (for example, convexity) take up space. The thicker the knife, the more pronounced the convexity can be and the better the food release.

So you can have a knife which glides through hard foods but has poor food release (a "laser") or a knife that wedges a bit with good food release ( "workhorse"). This is, of course a continuum, so you can have knives that are somewhere in between.

Some taller workhorsey knives (my old school ironclad Wats and Toyamas are in this category) have a thicker convex grind higher up the blade but are decently thin (but not laser-thin) behind the edge. Wedging is mostly an issue in tall foods with these grinds.

Wide bevel knives with a distinct shinogi (like Kagekiyo) can also wedge if the food reaches the shinogi.

So I guess you need to prioritise whether you want a heavier knife or a knife that is thin and resistant to wedging.

I agree with @Jason183 that if you want a knife that glides through hard veggies, a laser-thin knife would be ideal.

But one shouldn't overlook the benefits of a great Workhorse grind. The newer stainless Wats and Toyamas are said to be a little thinner but my ironclad ones are excellent workhorse grinds. Great for ploughing through piles of produce. Especially if the food is soft and wet.

Note that the term "workhorse" is also often used instead to denote a tough knife that is up to any task. A bit confusing but the context can give a clue.

 

[myguidingmoonlight]

My old Kagekiyo White 2 was so thin bte that its a pure joy to cut onions and dense veggies with. However, being so thin makes it pretty fragile and I had the edge warped on me once.

Now I own a Toyama iron clad that is the complete opposite of the Kagekiyo. The Toyama is thicker and feels so much more robust, definitely more wedgy. Despite that, I like that I don't have to baby it and I can throw the Toyama at almost any cutting job without much worry.

 

[brimmergj]

I've got a Kagekiyo blue #1 and a damascus Toyama 240. I feel the Toyama is a better all-around one and done knife. I favor laser type blades so I love my Kagekiyo. It is very, very thin bte, but feels more robust than my Kurosaki Fujin. More fragile than the Toyama, but not so fragile that I have to baby it. Both are great options.

 

[labor of love]

I really wasn’t too into those Kagekiyo lacquer handles, but that’s personal preference. Otherwise great knives. Recently acquired a Kagekiyo kasumi ginsan with walnut carved handle and I love everything about it.

 

[Perzua]

Cutting performance is a multifaceted concept.

Things to consider include:
1. Amount of wedging in hard foods.
2. Amount of stiction in wet foods.
3. Food shedding (resistance to food sticking to the blade face).
4. Blade profile.

The first 3 are determined by the grind of the knife.
2 and 3 are closely related features which often go under the moniker "food release".

It turns out that there is a trade-off between wedging and food release. Thicker (and therefore heavier) knives tend to wedge more but can have superior food release (assuming the grind is executed correctly). This is because grind features that promote food release (for example, convexity) take up space. The thicker the knife, the more pronounced the convexity can be and the better the food release.

So you can have a knife which glides through hard foods but has poor food release (a "laser") or a knife that wedges a bit with good food release ( "workhorse"). This is, of course a continuum, so you can have knives that are somewhere in between.

Some taller workhorsey knives (my old school ironclad Wats and Toyamas are in this category) have a thicker convex grind higher up the blade but are decently thin (but not laser-thin) behind the edge. Wedging is mostly an issue in tall foods with these grinds.

Wide bevel knives with a distinct shinogi (like Kagekiyo) can also wedge if the food reaches the shinogi.

So I guess you need to prioritise whether you want a heavier knife or a knife that is thin and resistant to wedging.

I agree with @Jason183 that if you want a knife that glides through hard veggies, a laser-thin knife would be ideal.

But one shouldn't overlook the benefits of a great Workhorse grind. The newer stainless Wats and Toyamas are said to be a little thinner but my ironclad ones are excellent workhorse grinds. Great for ploughing through piles of produce. Especially if the food is soft and wet.

Note that the term "workhorse" is also often used instead to denote a tough knife that is up to any task. A bit confusing but the context can give a clue.

Thanks for that ! You know I can buy laser and workhorse of course. I want more knifes ... Please tell me specific knifes. Toyama etc one laser and workhorse both with good grind from 225 to 245 mm

 

[Nemo]

Thanks for that ! You know I can buy laser and workhorse of course. I want more knifes ... Please tell me specific knifes. Toyama etc one laser and workhorse both with good grind from 225 to 245 mm

No problem.

Maybe you can give us a bit more information about exactly what you want. If you cut and paste this questionnaire:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/the-which-knife-should-i-buy-questionnaire-v2.12791/
into this thread then answer the questions (if you answers are in bold or in a different colour, it's easier to read), you will get advice more specific to your situation.

 

[Perzua]

I really like this profile

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/toyama-noborikoi-kiritsuke-gyuto-240mm-wide/
But I am not sure it wont wedge on harder roots.

 

[Jville]

My blue 1 kagekiyo surprised me on dense veg. I remember it being really good and sturdy. I havent used it in awhile, but they are severely underated imho.

 

[Alwayzbakin]

I really like this profile

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/toyama-noborikoi-kiritsuke-gyuto-240mm-wide/
But I am not sure it wont wedge on harder roots.

There’s an old thread of some carrot cutting videos with a watanabe pro (basically same as toyama). In my experience my toyama takes a bit more effort through harder roots than my thinner ground knives (I don’t have a kagekiyo tho) but it’s still enjoyable and a knife I don’t regret.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/carrot-wedge-test.45396/

 

[myguidingmoonlight]

One more thing I want to note is that Kagekiyo are really short in terms of heel height and since they are very thin, sharpening oftenly can really remove a lot of material and shorten it's lifespan. My Kagekiyo 210 feels like an oversized petty instead of a gyuto, and it'll probably become a petty soon with frequent sharpening and a 44 mm heel height.

Whereas a Toyama with its thicker edge and much taller heel height feel like it will last much longer even with frequent sharpening.

 

[superworrier]

The lack of popularity is easily explained by the short height imo

 

[labor of love]

Miura has 49-50mm 240mm Kagekiyos. Even though they’re listed as much shorter.

 

[myguidingmoonlight]

However, don't let the Toyama love here detract from Kagekiyo being phenomenal knives with some of the best fit and finish of any Japanese knives on the market.

As well as being some of the best wide-bevel blades available right now, they are absolute onion killers. Mine don't have a lot of problems with dense veggies either.