let me ask you how do i know how coarse of a stone to start when there is a knife with no nicks .....

[boblob]

let me ask you how do i know how coarse of a stone to start when there is a knife with no nicks but cant cut printer paper also some places when looking at the edge it reflects.....
i sometimes use my medium stone a very long time until i raise a burr, it would be faster using a coarser stone but maybe more metal will be lost
i have a 120/240, 300, 800,1000/6000 stones
i sharpen only stainless steels

 

[M1k3]

If it's taking longer than a minute or two, I'll go coarser. If I need to thin some, I'll go coarser.

That's assuming you're holding a steady angle.

 

[boblob]

If it's taking longer than a minute or two, I'll go coarser. If I need to thin some, I'll go coarser.

That's assuming you're holding a steady angle.

i start my sharpenings with the 120/240 and thin the knife after that i go to the 800# and start sharpening the edge, if in a minute or 2 i cannot raise a burr with the 800 grit you would say i should go to the 300# stone ?

 

[M1k3]

i start my sharpenings with the 120/240 and thin the knife after that i go to the 800# and start sharpening the edge, if in a minute or 2 i cannot raise a burr with the 800 grit you would say i should go to the 300# stone ?

Yes. 5 minutes max.

What I usually do is feel the edge. If it feels dull or it feels like it'll cut me with a bit of effort, I'll start coarse. If it's sort of sharp but not, I'll start on my 500 grit. If it's just not satisfactorily sharp, I'll use something in the 2k+ range.

 

[The_Real_Self]

I would suggest avoiding grinding to a burr when possible. Instead, grind until you no longer see light reflecting from the apex area of the edge under strong light. Then, simply switch to your finishing stone of choice and increase the angle slightly to grind only on the actual apex and you will save yourself a lot of time. You can start with a very coarse stone if you do not overgrind to a burr, using a very muddy stone will minimize this. If you do overgrind then you will potentially spend a lot of time trying to remove the burr and get back an undamaged apex that forms cleanly. It can literally take a minute or two from beginning to end when done correctly. Grinding to a burr can increase this figure DRAMATICALLY. The toughness of your steel (high or low carbide generally) will determine how low you can go without causing too much damage to the apex area before trying to form an apex. Confused yet?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

At this point, I'm going to recommend you stick with burr sharpening. The feedback is much clearer and will help you progress. Your call.

If you're already on the coarse stones for some thinning, why are you not then apexing before going to the 800? Just curious if you have a reason. I would.

 

[The_Real_Self]

At this point, I'm going to recommend you stick with burr sharpening. The feedback is much clearer and will help you progress. Your call.

If you're already on the coarse stones for some thinning, why are you not then apexing before going to the 800? Just curious if you have a reason. I would.

This can go both ways, one can easily struggle on stones that heavily promote against burr formation as the mud can minimize the burr and simultaneously dull the edge. I've dealt with this in the past with muddy stones and wasted a ton of time not knowing it was time to switch to the finishing stone. I don't recommend against burr sharpening in general as it can be made to work but I don't necessarily assume it will be easier for someone in general than what I've outlined. Once you get it to the point of not reflecting light you can literally teach almost anyone to actually apex the knife all the way down to small children or the other end of the spectrum (old people who are not very coordinated).

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

This can go both ways, one can easily struggle on stones that heavily promote against burr formation as the mud can minimize the burr and simultaneously dull the edge. I've dealt with this in the past with muddy stones and wasted a ton of time not knowing it was time to switch to the finishing stone. I don't recommend against burr sharpening in general as it can be made to work but I don't necessarily assume it will be easier for someone in general than what I've outlined. Once you get it to the point of not reflecting light you can literally teach almost anyone to actually apex the knife all the way down to small children or the other end of the spectrum (old people who are not very coordinated).

To each their own and for sure there are a lot of folks who like no-burr sharpening. I'm just not one of them. I don't think burr sharpening can be made to work, I think it does work. At least it most circumstances. I generally keep my stones flushed.

Regardless of grit, my personal preference is to raise a burr, minimize the burr, de-burr and repeat on each stone. It is my own experience that people can relate to this quite well as it provides visual and tactile feedback.

 

[Benuser]

let me ask you how do i know how coarse of a stone to start when there is a knife with no nicks but cant cut printer paper also some places when looking at the edge it reflects.....
i sometimes use my medium stone a very long time until i raise a burr, it would be faster using a coarser stone but maybe more metal will be lost
i have a 120/240, 300, 800,1000/6000 stones
i sharpen only stainless steels.

In general, I would make sure, from the coarsest stone on, that both bevels do actually meet. From there on, there is an edge, and a burr. In fact, burrs may very well occur before an edge has been built, as a sharpie and a loupe will show.
I start in most cases by thinning behind the edge with a coarse stone, and only little by little increase the angle by lifting the spine until the very has been reached. You may check the scratch pattern with a loupe. A sharpie can be helpful. If both bevels are clean from paint, and no ink remains on top, you have an edge. And for sure, a burr.
You may start your deburring. Have a light touch and no steel will be wasted.

 

[boblob]

In general, I would make sure, from the coarsest stone on, that both bevels do actually meet. From there on, there is an edge, and a burr. In fact, burrs may very well occur before an edge has been built, as a sharpie and a loupe will show.
I start in most cases by thinning behind the edge with a coarse stone, and only little by little increase the angle by lifting the spine until the very has been reached. You may check the scratch pattern with a loupe. A sharpie can be helpful. If both bevels are clean from paint, and no ink remains on top, you have an edge. And for sure, a burr.
You may start your deburring. Have a light touch and no steel will be wasted.

i always start th sharpening with thinning with a coarse stone you suggust to always also start the sharpening the edge with the coarsest stone i have ?do correct me if i am wrong , my coarsest stone is 140#

 

[Benuser]

i always start th sharpening with thinning with a coarse stone you suggust to always also start the sharpening with the coarsest stone i have ?do correct me if i am wrong , my coarsest stone is 140#

That's indeed quite extreme for building an edge. Likely to cause serious problems with deep grooves weakening it. I don't think I ever used such coarse a stone anyhow close to the edge. Change in time to something in the 300-500 range.

 

[boblob]

That's indeed quite extreme for building an edge. Likely to cause serious problems with deep grooves weakening it. I don't think I ever used such coarse a stone anyhow close to the edge. Change in time to something in the 300-500 range.

so you suggest starting with the 300# stone or the 800# , is there any time i should start with the 800# stone ? the knife i am asking about is the shibazi i mentioned in the other thread i replied there with the steel type specifications from the website you described
do you suggust not to use the 140/240 stone even for thinning or just not to sharpen the edge with it ?

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/should-i-use-a-coarser-stone.63803/post-976207

That's indeed quite extreme for building an edge. Likely to cause serious problems with deep grooves weakening it. I don't think I ever used such coarse a stone anyhow close to the edge. Change in time to something in the 300-500 range.

best of wishes
bob

 

[boblob]

. If it feels dull or it feels like it'll cut me with a bit of effort, I'll start coarse

what grit ? is your coarse

 

[boblob]

This can go both ways, one can easily struggle on stones that heavily promote against burr formation as the mud can minimize the burr and simultaneously dull the edge. I've dealt with this in the past with muddy stones and wasted a ton of time not knowing it was time to switch to the finishing stone. I don't recommend against burr sharpening in general as it can be made to work but I don't necessarily assume it will be easier for someone in general than what I've outlined. Once you get it to the point of not reflecting light you can literally teach almost anyone to actually apex the knife all the way down to small children or the other end of the spectrum (old people who are not very coordinated).

my sun tiger 800# stone produces tremendous amount of mud

 

[Benuser]

I wouldn't sharpen with a 140, nor with a 240, if you happen to have a 320 or so. They are great for thinning, though.
If I remember correctly, you couldn't raise a burr with the 800. So the blade must be in fairly poor shape. Perhaps an abraded or very rounded edge, or fatigued steel. No burr means the bevels don't meet, or the steel has become very weak. That's why I would use a 320 to restore the edge and have fresh steel within little time. Make sure the entire old edge is gone. Use a loupe and look at the scratch pattern, or use a sharpie.

 

[mengwong]

I start in most cases by thinning behind the edge with a coarse stone, and only little by little increase the angle by lifting the spine until the very has been reached.

If you will forgive me a contrarian moment…

I do exactly the same and have had good results with hard steels. With softer steels I also do the same, but I aspire to one day master a different method, which I probably encountered either on KKF or in Kraichuk’s writings…

The edge is soft and thin and will bend under pressure. This is why we do feather-light edge leading. To combat burr formation.

But what if the edge were soft but, somehow, not as thin? If we seek to establish a microbevel first at the apex while the steel is still fat, to achieve it we can apply slightly higher pressure and work faster without fear of a burr. After we’re happy with the apex geometry we can then thin above that microbevel to remove steel as needed. Less bending, less burr, less frustration.

But this is a very advanced technique and requires the knife already have a near-perfect profile.

 

[Benuser]

If you will forgive me a contrarian moment…



I do exactly the same and have had good results with hard steels. With softer steels I also do the same, but I aspire to one day master a different method, which I probably encountered either on KKF or in Kraichuk’s writings…



The edge is soft and thin and will bend under pressure. This is why we do feather-light edge leading. To combat burr formation.



But what if the edge were soft but, somehow, not as thin? If we seek to establish a microbevel first at the apex while the steel is still fat, to achieve it we can apply slightly higher pressure and work faster without fear of a burr. After we’re happy with the apex geometry we can then thin above that microbevel to remove steel as needed. Less bending, less burr, less frustration.



But this is a very advanced technique and requires the knife already have a near-perfect profile.

Frankly, I do that thinning afterwards quite often with my Sabs, which have convex bevels, continuous with the face. Simply because it is very fast and easy, especially if you do it lenghtwise, along the edge. I don't care much about the area close to the fingerguard. One remark: check the very edge again once you're done. The edge isn't always that clean after the thinning, even if it should have remained untouched.

 

[boblob]

so you suggest starting with the 300# stone or the 800# , is there any time i should start with the 800# stone ? the knife i am asking about is the shibazi i mentioned in the other thread i replied there with the steel type specifications from the website you described
do you suggust not to use the 140/240 stone even for thinning or just not to sharpen the edge with it ?

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/should-i-use-a-coarser-stone.63803/post-976207
best of wishes
bob

@Benuser
do you suggust not to use the 140/240 stone even for thinning or just not to sharpen the edge with it ?
because i find if very good for thinning

 

[Benuser]

@Benuser
do you suggust not to use the 140/240 stone even for thinning or just not to sharpen the edge with it ?
because i find if very good for thinning

I think they are great for thinning.

 

[The_Real_Self]

I wouldn't sharpen with a 140, nor with a 240, if you happen to have a 320 or so. They are great for thinning, though.
If I remember correctly, you couldn't raise a burr with the 800. So the blade must be in fairly poor shape. Perhaps an abraded or very rounded edge, or fatigued steel. No burr means the bevels don't meet, or the steel has become very weak. That's why I would use a 320 to restore the edge and have fresh steel within little time. Make sure the entire old edge is gone. Use a loupe and look at the scratch pattern, or use a sharpie.

No burr can also simply mean that you are grinding edge leading on a very muddy stone that heavily minimizes the burr so as to be very difficult to detect by standard methods. This is why I will often prefer to use a very muddy stone to set the edge bevel as I do not want to grind to a burr because then I have to remove a burr (which wastes time a little or a lot depending on how you go about removing this and the knife steel itself).

my sun tiger 800# stone produces tremendous amount of mud

If you are doing scrubbing strokes or edge leading on this stone then I would say there is a very strong possibility that the stone is just resisting formation of a burr and you are just wasting time and stone. As I said, burr sharpening has it's place but that place is not well suited to using very muddy stones as they are not well suited to raising a burr quickly (or at all in some cases). Does the edge apex region reflect light at all?

If it does not reflect light then you have achieved sufficient thickness at the apex to switch to a finishing stone. Use a hard stone (diamond plate, higher grit Shapton Glass, sintered ceramic) and possibly a finer stone to set the apex finish with a micro bevel by simply elevating the edge angle slightly and doing edge leading passes. You will feel when you have the angle correct because it will bite into the stone a bit more and give different feedback.

 

[boblob]

If you are doing scrubbing strokes or edge leading on this stone then I would say there is a very strong possibility that the stone is just resisting formation of a burr and you are just wasting time and stone. As I said, burr sharpening has it's place but that place is not well suited to using very muddy stones as they are not well suited to raising a burr quickly (or at all in some cases). Does the edge apex region reflect light at all?

If it does not reflect light then you have achieved sufficient thickness at the apex to switch to a finishing stone. Use a hard stone (diamond plate, higher grit Shapton Glass, sintered ceramic) and possibly a finer stone to set the apex finish with a micro bevel by simply elevating the edge angle slightly and doing edge leading passes. You will feel when you have the angle correct because it will bite into the stone a bit more and give different feedback.

yes i am using scrubbing/push pull
but cannot use a finishing stone because it is low hrc stainless......

 

[The_Real_Self]

yes i am using scrubbing/push pull
but cannot use a finishing stone because it is low hrc stainless......

Then you can try honing to dry. Allow the stone to dry a bit after rinsing, which will help slow abrasive release. Use light force on microbevel and if needed edge trailing will help also.