Making the move to sharpening stones and looking for advice

[Interapid101]

Looking to start sharpening using water stones, and I'd like some advice on practice/technique and equipment recommendations. I'd used the Spyderco sharpmaker for years, then I got two small (handheld) japanese waterstones from a vendor at a knife show. They are good for pocketknives, but I just can't produce good edges on long blades. I purchased a Ken Onion Worksharp about a year ago, and it's OK, but the angle guide scratches blades, and I really don't like wearing a respirator or using power tools for sharpening. Now I'd like to give the traditional methods a try.

In terms of technique, I've watched many instructional vids on youtube, and found there is quite a variety of techniques that people use. Some of the videos are contradicting each other as well, making it hard to discern good advice from bad. For example, some people say to leave to tip on the stone when you end the pass, but I see other people sharpening to where they are flicking the tip off the edge of the stone. Could you point me in the direction of some instructions/vids that show what would generally be considered "proper" technique?

Of course I'm going to need some equipment. I'd like to get a coarse and medium stone (maybe a fine stone too), a sink bridge, and a flattening stone at this point. My budget is ~$350. I was thinking of the following:

-Chosera 400
-Naniwa Aotoshi 2000 (would a 1k be a better choice?)
-maybe a Arashiyama 6000 if I decide to get a fine stone
-Atoma 140x
-some kind of sink bridge (recommendations?)

Any better suggestions?

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

For sharpening videos, Jon Broida's are the best: https://www.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports

Your chosen set of three stones is a decent set for maintanance and repair. You may want to consider a set of the Gesshin 400, 2000, and 6000 as an alternative that many of the forum members swear by: https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...s-and-combo-stones/products/gesshin-stone-set

The Atoma 140 is the benchmark for flattening. Good choice.

I just stepped up from a Naniwa sink bridge to a CZAR Ultimate sink bridge: http://www.knivesandstones.com/the-ultimate-sinkbridge-by-czar-precision/. It's the Cadillac of sink bridges, but may be a little pricey for you. JKI carries an intriguing sink bridge that I'd recommend over the Naniwa or the Tojiro: https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/sharpening-accessories/products/large-stone-holder.

 

[Yet-Another-Dave]

... The Atoma 140 is the benchmark for flattening. Good choice. ...

Or, Jon @ JKI's Diamond Flattening Plate also gets good reviews, is a little cheaper, and would keep your order at the same vendor.

 

[daveb]

In the US it's hard to imagine a better long term value in soakers than the Gesshin stones, G2K, G6K and the flattening plate. G2K might be the best stone ever.

 

[Interapid101]

Thanks for the advice. I'm already enjoying Jon Broida's videos, and I'm going to get the JKI sink bridge.

Regarding the Gesshin stones: is their performance substantially better than Chosera? In what regards are they superior?

 

[K813zra]

Thanks for the advice. I'm already enjoying Jon Broida's videos, and I'm going to get the JKI sink bridge.

Regarding the Gesshin stones: is their performance substantially better than Chosera? In what regards are they superior?

That is not really an easy question but I would say moving from one to the other is more of a lateral move and is dependent on which stones from the Gesshin line we are choosing from. Chosera stones don't do contrast well, some Gesshin stones do but others don't. Most of the chosera stones are quite hard with the exception of the 5k but the Gesshin stones have hard, medium and soft stones. The chosera are splash and go but there are both splash and go and soaking stones in the Gesshin line. Tactile feedback is all over the map depending on what stones you are talking about. Etc, so much to talk about.

The soaker set that Jon has put together is very comprehensive and well rounded (400/2k/6k). It is a set that I like very much. I like other stones as well but for different reasons.

 

[Yet-Another-Dave]

What he said ^^^, plus:

Chosera stones seem to be replaced in the US by PRO stones. The PRO stones are reported to be similar, or the same, but are thinner (less sharpening volume). Many people seem to like them. (OTOH- I don't recall anyone, who has tried them, not liking the Gesshin stones.) I'm sure either would be fine, and you may need to try them both to decide which is better for you.

 

[Interapid101]

Or, Jon @ JKI's Diamond Flattening Plate also gets good reviews, is a little cheaper, and would keep your order at the same vendor.

I wasn't able to find much in the way of reviews for the JKI flattening plate. In a nutshell, this is considered as effective as the Atoma 140x?

That is not really an easy question but I would say moving from one to the other is more of a lateral move and is dependent on which stones from the Gesshin line we are choosing from. Chosera stones don't do contrast well, some Gesshin stones do but others don't. Most of the chosera stones are quite hard with the exception of the 5k but the Gesshin stones have hard, medium and soft stones. The chosera are splash and go but there are both splash and go and soaking stones in the Gesshin line. Tactile feedback is all over the map depending on what stones you are talking about. Etc, so much to talk about.

The soaker set that Jon has put together is very comprehensive and well rounded (400/2k/6k). It is a set that I like very much. I like other stones as well but for different reasons.

What he said ^^^, plus:

Chosera stones seem to be replaced in the US by PRO stones. The PRO stones are reported to be similar, or the same, but are thinner (less sharpening volume). Many people seem to like them. (OTOH- I don't recall anyone, who has tried them, not liking the Gesshin stones.) I'm sure either would be fine, and you may need to try them both to decide which is better for you.

Thanks to you both. The Gesshin stones seem like a great value. I'm still quite interested in the Naniwa Aotoshi for a 2k stone, though. Anyone have experience with this and how does it compare to Gesshin 2k?

 

[Yet-Another-Dave]

... I'm still quite interested in the Naniwa Aotoshi for a 2k stone, though. ...

You need to decide what you'll be happy with, both budget & sharpening experience. Really we're mostly talking about small differences, you could use a concrete block if push came to shove, and the discussion is more about what's more efficient and what's more enjoyable, and... tastes vary.

No experience with the Aotoshi. I searched the forum quickly and it doesn't seem too well thought of, but I'm sure it'd be usable.

 

[daveb]

I've had the DMT XXC plate and have the JKI flattener. Of the two the JKI is more effective, faster and easier to use. I gave away the DMT. No experience with Atoma but have heard good things.

 

[K813zra]

I wasn't able to find much in the way of reviews for the JKI flattening plate. In a nutshell, this is considered as effective as the Atoma 140x?





Thanks to you both. The Gesshin stones seem like a great value. I'm still quite interested in the Naniwa Aotoshi for a 2k stone, though. Anyone have experience with this and how does it compare to Gesshin 2k?

It is a slow cutting stone, particularly for a 2k. It seems to polish above its level of abrasive. It is a very soft stone too. For me, it is something that I outgrew quickly. Seems to be a good finishing point for soft Euro stainless. However, there are people out there that like it.

The Gesshin is significantly harder and faster cutting but still has pleasant feedback. I'd take it hands down over the green brick, every time. But that is personal taste as was mentioned by Dave.

 

[Chef Doom]

Go for the Gesshin setup. You can't go wrong with those.

 

[Yet-Another-Dave]

... Any better suggestions?

I just noticed you're located in California. You don't say where, and I concede it's a big state, but if you're in the Los Angeles area you are in range of JKI's store front. (West LA area, in South Eastern corner of Beverly Hills.) Jon's on sabbatical, but the store is open and Josh is also knowledgeable and very helpful. If you can make it there, you can see and try any / all of the Gesshin stones. (If you're from that area, you don't need a warning, but traffic is, erh, challenging.)

 

[Interapid101]

Go for the Gesshin setup. You can't go wrong with those.

You all have convinced me that this is the way to go. I'll be placing my JKI order this week.

I just noticed you're located in California. You don't say where, and I concede it's a big state, but if you're in the Los Angeles area you are in range of JKI's store front. (West LA area, in South Eastern corner of Beverly Hills.) Jon's on sabbatical, but the store is open and Josh is also knowledgeable and very helpful. If you can make it there, you can see and try any / all of the Gesshin stones. (If you're from that area, you don't need a warning, but traffic is, erh, challenging.)

Regrettably, I used to live in the general vicinity of LA, but I never visited JKI (I was heavy into knives, yet legitimately did not even know JKI existed). After watching some of Jon's videos, I am especially disappointed that I didn't go, but I will definitely visit should I find myself in the area again.

I've since moved back to the Bay Area, and the best place I know of to check out kitchen knives is that hardware store in Japantown, but they have a very limited selection. Maybe it's better nowadays. It is where I purchased my Macs many years ago.

 

[Interapid101]

So I've been on this forum for about a month and already I"m spending more money than planned :O I've also got some pics for you to look at so maybe you can point out what I'm doing wrong.

Based on the advice here, I chose the gesshin set, flattening plate, and stone bridge from KJI. I figured I'd learn how to use the stones by sharpening an old stainless knife I got at a garage sale for $3. Dunno the brand, the maker's label was mostly worn off, but it did say molybdenum steel, and is stamped as made in Japan. Wish I had a "before" picture. It's a weighty knife with a hollow scandi grind. The tip was chipped off, edge was dulled with multiple small chips and a dent you could stick a fingernail into, but the bevel was still there. I used just the 2000 since Jon's vids recommend learning on a med grit. Took about half an hour but I got the edge sharp again. Jon's vids really helped to keep me conscious about which hand is doing what and how to mind my angle. I also discovered that the sound of the blade on the stone was helpful feedback when I was wandering away from the bevel angle.

The 2000 grit got the edge back, but I wasn't happy about the chips and dent. So I decided to give the 400 grit a try. I had a couple of slips with the 400 and slightly scratched the side of the blade, but eventually I was able to removed the damage. I worked up to the 6000 grit, and at this point this edge was the sharpest in my kitchen. Problem was that the bevel was extremely wide and it was wedging into some foods.

So I decided to thin the knife. I used the "shinogi" line from the scandi grind as a guide, and thinned with the 400 stone. using the "shinogi" kept the edge straight, but I did end up with the edge being slightly asymmetrical. I was not able to repair the tip. The 400 also tore up the side of the blade. So I used sandpaper to polish up most of the damage. Then I set a new edge. Since I had no bevel to start with, this ended up being really difficult. I wasn't holding the angle well, and the fact that I chose the 400 for this task meant the mistakes were harder to fix.

Eventually I got a bevel on both sides, but it was difficult for me near the tip of the blade. You can see in these pics that the edge is pretty consistent from the heel to about 3" from the tip. Near the tip things start to get messy. You can see where I slipped up with the 400 stone. More problematic, the angle is sometimes too shallow, and sometimes too deep. It's also the opposite pattern on opposite sides of the blade, IOW where the bevel is acute on the right side, the bevel is obtuse on the left. Can you guys point out what I'm doing wrong? I should mention that I am fairly ambidextrous, so I sharpen both sides with the spine pointing away from me. Would really like some advice on keeping my angle near the tip, and also how do I repair that tip?

[/URL]






[/IMG]

Despite the imperfections, I should tell you the knife works beautifully now. Prepped all of last night's food with it, and the thinner edge made a HUGE improvement. I did have some trouble getting into a tough avocado skin, but I figured that's because the 6000 finish is a little too smooth for it.

 

[unprofessional_chef]

That knife just needs a good finish on the handle.

 

[Paraffin]

Another recommendation here for the JKI Gesshin soaker set (400, 2000, and 6000). I bought that recently, along with the sink bridge, stone holder, and their diamond flattening plate.

Many years ago, I freehand sharpened on DMT diamond plates, then moved into the Edge Pro rig-sharpening world for the last 15 years, and then decided to go back to freehand sharpening when I got interested in Japanese knives recently. I figured the JKI Gesshin set would be a good entry point, and I'm very happy with the stones so far. I haven't tried an Atoma 140, but the JKI flattening plate works fine.

This 400/2k/6k Gesshin set needs soaking, so you'll either have to plan some soaking time before sharpening, or leave them in water. That was my main concern before buying -- whether I wanted splash 'n go or soaking stones. Convenience won out, and luckily I have a large sink in a utility room just off the kitchen. I successfully negotiated with my wife to use that as a dedicated sharpening space, where I can keep the stones soaking in a plastic tub. I like being able to just walk over and grab a stone for a quick touch-up if an edge isn't performing in the kitchen, without having to wait for soaking. If I didn't have that setup, I might have gone for splash 'n go stones.

P.S. many thanks to the forum members here, who posted all the info on these JKI stones that I was able to research before buying. You're costing me a lot of money, but it's worth it so far.

 

[Interapid101]

Another recommendation here for the JKI Gesshin soaker set (400, 2000, and 6000). I bought that recently, along with the sink bridge, stone holder, and their diamond flattening plate.

Many years ago, I freehand sharpened on DMT diamond plates, then moved into the Edge Pro rig-sharpening world for the last 15 years, and then decided to go back to freehand sharpening when I got interested in Japanese knives recently. I figured the JKI Gesshin set would be a good entry point, and I'm very happy with the stones so far. I haven't tried an Atoma 140, but the JKI flattening plate works fine.

This 400/2k/6k Gesshin set needs soaking, so you'll either have to plan some soaking time before sharpening, or leave them in water. That was my main concern before buying -- whether I wanted splash 'n go or soaking stones. Convenience won out, and luckily I have a large sink in a utility room just off the kitchen. I successfully negotiated with my wife to use that as a dedicated sharpening space, where I can keep the stones soaking in a plastic tub. I like being able to just walk over and grab a stone for a quick touch-up if an edge isn't performing in the kitchen, without having to wait for soaking. If I didn't have that setup, I might have gone for splash 'n go stones.

P.S. many thanks to the forum members here, who posted all the info on these JKI stones that I was able to research before buying. You're costing me a lot of money, but it's worth it so far.

I went the same route. Very happy with the purchase.

What I'm interested in now is getting some advice on how to use them. Please check post #15 showing my results on a very old, damaged stainless chef's knife. I'm happy with the blade thinning and edge repair that I did. I'm also happy with the edge I set from the heel up to about 3" from the tip. What I'm not happy with is the consistency of the edge near the tip and the fact that I could not repair the tip of the blade.

At this point, I'm looking for an analysis of the photos I posted, if anyone can spot what I'm doing wrong, especially around the tip.