Masakage Aogami or Shirogami

[lemeneid]

Resilience and edge retention are not the same thing.

Edge retention is how long your edge will remain sharp under typical force.

Resilience, or often called durability, is how unlikely your edge is to chip or majorly deform under increased force.

In other words, a knife that will be abused must be durable. A knife that will be used may not necessarily benefit from durability, although that will be a nice to have.

Blue steel, given the structure of the steel, should have longer edge retention than white steel, but for the same reasons, should be more brittle than white steel (although I've not found blue #2 to be brittle at high hardness under regular operation).

I think the correct term is wear resistance and toughness.
Wear resistance is basically related to edge retention and how long the knife will hold an edge.
Toughness relates to how well it can take impact and other forces and how it will react.

As for Blue#2, what I've heard is more makers rather use Blue#2 instead of Blue#1 because it can get to almost the same hardness whilst not sacrificing on the toughness. In general, the more carbon you have the less tough it will become.

In my opinion, steel matters little when selecting a knife. I rather look for a knife that has the best heat treat to bring out the best qualities in the steel. This is where specs don't matter much and it all depends on the blacksmith to bring out the best in the steel. With a good heat treat, you will have great sharpness, edge retention and toughness, regardless of steel.

That said, as a home cook myself, I rather pick white steel over blue. But of course, the knives I've picked all have amazing heat treats that maximise for edge retention, sharpness and toughness

 

[LucasFur]

Itsjun: all steel can be chippy if mistreated, just widen your sharpening angle to suit. I would imagine white 2 at 65 is more chippy. And I would say my TF shiro is much more chippy than any softer aogami knives.

Limpet... I agree with you.
Cyrillic... The way I see it there are 2 paths for those starting out home cooks both not mutually exclusive. 1. Get a high edge retention knife, bring it/ship it off to get sharpened once a year or more. 2. Get a "lower" edge retention knife with stones, sharpen quickly every few months. Maybe take out some low spots, thin a tip. Those in option 2 get the most out of their knives and dollars spent, learn the most, actually learn to maintain their own stuff because really... it's not hard.

And you can know that your knife is genuinely dull, sometimes the high end steels dull so slowly that you don't notice for years.

 

[limpet]

Why not worry about everything? If you post here, you are an enthusiast. Profile, grind, steel and heat treatment, and as a result edge taking ability, retention, and toughness. Why sacrifice anything?

Well, I think grind and geometry can make a huge difference compared to if it’s aogami or shirogami. You have big variables and small variables. If you find two almost identical knives and the difference is only the small variables, look at the small variables. If you’re a beginner and don’t know what profile and grind is best for your technique - worry less about if it’s aogami or shirogami.

To be clear, I’m talking about aogami vs shirogami here. Not any steel vs another steel.

 

[Cyrilix]

Well, I think grind and geometry can make a huge difference compared to if it’s aogami or shirogami. You have big variables and small variables. If you find two almost identical knives and the difference is only the small variables, look at the small variables. If you’re a beginner and don’t know what profile and grind is best for your technique - worry less about if it’s aogami or shirogami.

To be clear, I’m talking about aogami vs shirogami here. Not any steel vs another steel.

For sure, I look at it this way. Do I want to try a blue #2? Who makes the best (or among the best) blue #2 (for me)? Okay, I'll buy that one. That's how I ended up with 2 Wats. Edge lasts a long time, works great at 8-10 degrees per side with a microbevel, what's the next thing I want to try? Stainless PM with carbides less than 10 micron in size. Obvious answer here is R2. Who makes among the best R2? Takamura. So off I go to buy a Hana. Rinse and repeat until I've checked off all the things I want to try. Given that I know what the theoretical differences are between white and blue, and I have a good blue, the white just doesn't seem enticing. I will eventually get around to trying it because there's so much of it in the market. I know white is supposed to be easy to sharpen, but I consider even vg10 easy to sharpen, and blue is very easy to sharpen, so it makes no difference for me. The only steels I hate sharpening are 3cr13 and 4cr13.

 

[limpet]

For sure, I look at it this way. Do I want to try a blue #2? Who makes the best (or among the best) blue #2 (for me)? Okay, I'll buy that one. That's how I ended up with 2 Wats. Edge lasts a long time, works great at 8-10 degrees per side with a microbevel, what's the next thing I want to try? Stainless PM with carbides less than 10 micron in size. Obvious answer here is R2. Who makes among the best R2? Takamura. So off I go to buy a Hana. Rinse and repeat until I've checked off all the things I want to try. Given that I know what the theoretical differences are between white and blue, and I have a good blue, the white just doesn't seem enticing. I will eventually get around to trying it because there's so much of it in the market. I know white is supposed to be easy to sharpen, but I consider even vg10 easy to sharpen, and blue is very easy to sharpen, so it makes no difference for me. The only steels I hate sharpening are 3cr13 and 4cr13.

Ok. You’re clearly very much into steels and that’s fine. To each their own. I’m more like: Heavy or light blade? Thick or thin? Wide, tall bevel or low? Low convex? Thick spine with distal taper? Profile - how does it affect my technique on the board? That sort of things. When it comes to steel, I prefer carbon steel because I consider it easy to sharpen scary sharp. I have mostly jknives so that means shirogami/aogami.

 

[SilverSwarfer]

Itsjun: all steel can be chippy if mistreated, just widen your sharpening angle to suit. I would imagine white 2 at 65 is more chippy. And I would say my TF shiro is much more chippy than any softer aogami knives.

Limpet... I agree with you.
Cyrillic... The way I see it there are 2 paths for those starting out home cooks both not mutually exclusive. 1. Get a high edge retention knife, bring it/ship it off to get sharpened once a year or more. 2. Get a "lower" edge retention knife with stones, sharpen quickly every few months. Maybe take out some low spots, thin a tip. Those in option 2 get the most out of their knives and dollars spent, learn the most, actually learn to maintain their own stuff because really... it's not hard.

And you can know that your knife is genuinely dull, sometimes the high end steels dull so slowly that you don't notice for years.

IME, steel characteristics really become a factor when you are a sharpening enthusiast. While you may be able to discern subtle differences as a cutter/slicer/chopper/etc (difficult unless you've paid attention to a lot of experience); you can really tell a difference if you enjoy spending time sharpening.

You have to enjoy sharpening first: it's the key to understanding and appreciating what matters about the characteristics of the different steels. Add in the way different makers heat treat their preferred materials, and you can really enjoy massive appreciation for stated characteristics. I have had, and still enjoy having, moments when I reach/feel a new level of performance. Once you understand for yourself, you can better select particular steels for specific applications or POU's. Or you can better understand how to pick a "compromise" or all-purpose steel.

Taking your sharpening results to the cutting board then becomes a wholly more comprehensive experience. You see things differently. You can diagnose problems and make adjustments. Then ultimately, your product really shines. Things look and feel better and better.

And you can never get bored! -- In recent years, there are new steels on the market; or at least there are makers that are offering what we want with different steels. I haven't tried BD1N or NitroV or even 52100. I am new to SG2. I have experimented with pocket knives in S30V, S35VN, CPMM4, Cruwear; but it doesn't work the same for me- sharpening doesn't translate to the Kitchen Knife 1:1. But I have to imagine there are steels that lend beneficial characteristics beyond Shirogami and Aogami and AS. Why not a Cruwear yanagiba??

 

[bahamaroot]

Masakage Aogami chip often...

A very general blanket statement that's not necessarily true. I never had a problem with my Masakage Koishi chipping.

 

[SilverSwarfer]

A very general blanket statement that's not necessarily true. I never had a problem with my Masakage Koishi chipping.

Nor me. I wonder how many different blades have chipped, under what usage conditions and sharpening profiles, in your experience, ItsJun?

I only have the 1 Koishi Suji 270mm. Edge retention is excellent and no chipping with a <12degree, no micro bevel profile. But I only use for certain purposes: Cutting sushi rolls and veg/fish prep for sushi service. But under conditions of busy service in restaurant environment, so maybe relatively gentle but definitely rigorous.

 

[SilverSwarfer]

Nor me. I wonder how many different blades have chipped, under what usage conditions and sharpening profiles, in your experience, ItsJun?

I only have the 1 Koishi Suji 270mm. Edge retention is excellent and no chipping with a <12degree, no micro bevel profile. But I only use for certain purposes: Cutting sushi rolls and veg/fish prep for sushi service. But under conditions of busy service in restaurant environment, so maybe relatively gentle but definitely rigorous.

Oh, and important to note, my single Masakage is in Aogami Super, maybe not a relevant comment. Reflective of my experience nonetheless!

 

[Cyrilix]

IME, steel characteristics really become a factor when you are a sharpening enthusiast. While you may be able to discern subtle differences as a cutter/slicer/chopper/etc (difficult unless you've paid attention to a lot of experience); you can really tell a difference if you enjoy spending time sharpening.

You have to enjoy sharpening first: it's the key to understanding and appreciating what matters about the characteristics of the different steels. Add in the way different makers heat treat their preferred materials, and you can really enjoy massive appreciation for stated characteristics. I have had, and still enjoy having, moments when I reach/feel a new level of performance. Once you understand for yourself, you can better select particular steels for specific applications or POU's. Or you can better understand how to pick a "compromise" or all-purpose steel.

Taking your sharpening results to the cutting board then becomes a wholly more comprehensive experience. You see things differently. You can diagnose problems and make adjustments. Then ultimately, your product really shines. Things look and feel better and better.

And you can never get bored! -- In recent years, there are new steels on the market; or at least there are makers that are offering what we want with different steels. I haven't tried BD1N or NitroV or even 52100. I am new to SG2. I have experimented with pocket knives in S30V, S35VN, CPMM4, Cruwear; but it doesn't work the same for me- sharpening doesn't translate to the Kitchen Knife 1:1. But I have to imagine there are steels that lend beneficial characteristics beyond Shirogami and Aogami and AS. Why not a Cruwear yanagiba??

While it's true that there are a lot of new steels out there, I'm more and more finding that most of them don't have great properties for kitchen knives. Some of them have huge carbide volume or huge carbides due to extensive alloying. On the other hand, you have a steel like AEB-L that has great kitchen knife properties and Larrin is still finding ways to give it better heat treats so it can be more and more amazing. I'm actually quite happy with the traditional blue paper and white paper steels we have and PM steels like R2. Very well balanced and with good tradeoffs.

I'm excited to know what can be done with Niobium alloys but am definitely seeing refinement of existing balanced steels as the next step up instead of figuring out how to add 10% tungsten and vanadium.

 

[SilverSwarfer]

While it's true that there are a lot of new steels out there, I'm more and more finding that most of them don't have great properties for kitchen knives. Some of them have huge carbide volume or huge carbides due to extensive alloying. On the other hand, you have a steel like AEB-L that has great kitchen knife properties and Larrin is still finding ways to give it better heat treats so it can be more and more amazing. I'm actually quite happy with the traditional blue paper and white paper steels we have and PM steels like R2. Very well balanced and with good tradeoffs.

I'm excited to know what can be done with Niobium alloys but am definitely seeing refinement of existing balanced steels as the next step up instead of figuring out how to add 10% tungsten and vanadium.

I agree with the perceived limitations of the high carbide steels. And I recognize challenges presented with ultra high wear resistance alloys. We can’t use things we can’t sharpen.

But I do think steels like Cruwear and Elmax can have relevant applications; they are just not traditionally used and so the familiar makers don’t look to them.

I for one would very interested to try explore knives made with an array of steels.

I say all this while I realize my skills are far from proficient enough to get the most out of what I can already access. I admit the potential of the materials currently available exceeds my ability to exploit their benefits. But maybe there’s some advantage to be gained nonetheless.

 

[SilverSwarfer]

@Nomo4me -
Smart move smoothing off that finish! It is quite problematic for me when pushing through thin slices of fish.

I had considered working on this with some finger stones. Eventually. But your method is intriguing.

I have Koishi sujihiki 270. This region is as hollow ground behind the edge. I can’t imagine how to access with a belt. Can you explain how you did it?

I believe Kato is the maker for my blade. In my case, it’s a great performer! The grind is very nice: thin behind the edge but substantially thick to be rigid all the way to the tip. The only area for improvement would be this texture. It’s aesthetically pleasing but for me, performance is the focus. I will add this stickiness has not been an issue with wet products; but only proteins sliced very thinly.

Update on discussion re: improvements to a Masakage Koishi Suji:

I have been enjoying this knife at work these past few months. It serves as an all purpose utility blade when I’m not just cutting rolls through service. I remain very happy with performance overall. It’s a low maintenance, tough and fun knife. The AS steel in this case serves me very well for my purposes.

The reason I’ve used it so much recently is I finally ground off the original texture that was discussed in this thread. This all stemmed from a broken tip incident. I just decided to have at it and take a risk, since it was a (slightly) damaged knife anyway.

I love the results!

Through the grinding I found a good half dozen low spots, which caused this to become a multiple session project. Projects like this, I find are best accomplished with patient tenacity. Can’t grind when you’re frustrated or rushed. I have to mention that grinding the SS cladding through my progressions was not fun. Anyone else agree SS cladding sux on the stones?

I mention the low spots because I feel confident that’s the reason for the original texturing. KU knives are rough by definition and I’m absolutely cool with that. I’d rather not pay for a polish in some cases. I deeply enjoy polishing.

The finish the knife currently wears might be optimal for me. Easy maintenance and slick!

 

[Ryndunk]

I did the same with my kioshi suji. The first time I used it, I chipped the edge on a bone in a supposedly boneless pork loin. Ground the bevels flat while removing the chip. Performs way better than straight out of the box.