Need opinions from my fellow sushi chef about sharpening yanagi

[twizeman]

Hello guys, i recently got a yanagi and a set of sharpening stones from masamoto tsukiji. I work full time at a sushi place. My problem is i feel like my knife needs sharpening everyday. I've been using it for a month and sharpen it twice already. Also doing daily touch ups with fine stone but after 3rd or 4th i feel like it doesn't do the trick anymore. The knife steel is white2 and i only use it for nigiri and sashimi slicing. I wanna hear your thoughts fellow sushi chef and sharpening experts. Thanks

 

[SilverSwarfer]

I generally use 2 300mm Yanagibas every sushi production shift. 1 for fish. 1 for everything else. Sharpen both every day because 1) they need it and 2) I love sharpening. Whatever the steel, whatever the edge profile, knife grind, type, etc.- for purposes of sashimi slicing, you’ve got to have a fine edge. Fine edges erode quickly because they are fine. It’s a high maintenance game and there’s no solution aside from the love of sharpening.

You don’t need full progression sharpening every day. For many many years, I only used Kitayama 8k for my sashimi blades. It’s a great stone and you’d be surprised what can be achieved given adjusted adapted technique.

If you aren’t already familiar with Hamaguri vs. Beta Togi sharpening and understanding of Koba, I suggest spending some time in research. Watch YouTube videos. Experiment. Keep an open mind. And remember which adjustments yielded positive/negative results.

If in doubt, spend more time on the stones!

 

[twizeman]

I don't have problem putting time sharpening my knife daily. My only concern is if i do it so often it will grind out fast which is I don't want to happen.

I think i'm quite familiar with sharpening method as i have watched many sharpening videos (mostly Jon from jki) and I think my technique is fine.

If by not full progression sharpening, you mean you only sharpen your blades on your 8k stones daily? Because I'm doing the same thing only with lower grit (5k/6k stone) but after 3 or 4 days i feel that i need to get new edge and use my 1k stone again.

 

[SilverSwarfer]

In my case, I have been able to get 7-8 years of service sharpening daily in my style, which has been using 8k stone exclusively in the past.

I think 5/6k is usable in the same way, you can get variety different results by controlling pressure. And you can still polish at 5/6k too.

As for grinding too much material:
Before 2016 I was using only 1 knife during service, 300mm Yanagiba. From 2001-2008 it was a Masamoto Sohonten Honyaki Shirogami. From 2008-2016 it was a Suisin Hayate (Keijiro Doi) Aogami #2.

Both knives’ Ura are spent. I had the Masamoto reworked professionally. The shinogi line was raised and the ura was reground. I mention this to show there’s an option to keep a heavily used heavily sharpened knife in service.

The Doi is still serviceable, though it has changed. I will be keeping it as-is in retirement. Since 2016 I have added several Yanagiba and built a rotation from different makers of different configurations. Which is fun and educational. And expensive, arguably unnecessary, but for me it’s also a hobby I guess.

 

[Ochazuke]

For me I kept two yanagiba - I would alternate day to day though. The last person I trained with came from one of the bars near where Tsukiji was and I picked up my habits from him. He would always insist that I let my knife rest a day after sharpening but never explained why. My dad did the same thing and explained that the iron taste somehow still lingered. I don’t know though....

I would use a gyuto for pretty much all American style sushi and yanagiba for regular sushi. I built in the habit of sharpening after I finish work everyday but it never required that much work to get back in to serviceable condition. I also polished on a kitayama 8k. Maintaining a decent finish took longer for me than any edge work. You can go everyday on a kitayama and get 10 years or more out of your knife easily. Once every couple weeks or so per knife, I’d drop down to a 2k just to reset things. That’s mostly to make it easier on me though — it’s easier for me to see what needed to be done on a 2k. Anyways, just get good at hamaguriba and you shouldn’t have any problems at all.

I made my comments because if you’re confident with your skills, then maybe hearing other peoples’ sharpening habits would be helpful!

+1 on the Tsukiji Masamoto though! Maybe because it was my first real yanagiba, but I really love it. Especially the deep ura. I don’t get why more people don’t like them in the US.

 

[never mind]

+1 on the Tsukiji Masamoto though! Maybe because it was my first real yanagiba, but I really love it. Especially the deep ura. I don’t get why more people don’t like them in the US.

Tsukiji Masamoto is great. I also think his heat treatment is great. I feel thankful to have his unique creation in this tough market place of making Japanese kitchen knives.

Hope the OP finds out what is going on. Happy cutting

 

[kayman67]

*Ochazuke was the carbon steel left to rest with oil on it or clean?

 

[Ochazuke]

Just cleaned and dried, no oil

 

[twizeman]

In my case, I have been able to get 7-8 years of service sharpening daily in my style, which has been using 8k stone exclusively in the past.

I think 5/6k is usable in the same way, you can get variety different results by controlling pressure. And you can still polish at 5/6k too.

As for grinding too much material:
Before 2016 I was using only 1 knife during service, 300mm Yanagiba. From 2001-2008 it was a Masamoto Sohonten Honyaki Shirogami. From 2008-2016 it was a Suisin Hayate (Keijiro Doi) Aogami #2.

Both knives’ Ura are spent. I had the Masamoto reworked professionally. The shinogi line was raised and the ura was reground. I mention this to show there’s an option to keep a heavily used heavily sharpened knife in service.

The Doi is still serviceable, though it has changed. I will be keeping it as-is in retirement. Since 2016 I have added several Yanagiba and built a rotation from different makers of different configurations. Which is fun and educational. And expensive, arguably unnecessary, but for me it’s also a hobby I guess.

thanks for your help, i guess i'll just have to keep sharpening daily and improve my way.

For me I kept two yanagiba - I would alternate day to day though. The last person I trained with came from one of the bars near where Tsukiji was and I picked up my habits from him. He would always insist that I let my knife rest a day after sharpening but never explained why. My dad did the same thing and explained that the iron taste somehow still lingered. I don’t know though....

I would use a gyuto for pretty much all American style sushi and yanagiba for regular sushi. I built in the habit of sharpening after I finish work everyday but it never required that much work to get back in to serviceable condition. I also polished on a kitayama 8k. Maintaining a decent finish took longer for me than any edge work. You can go everyday on a kitayama and get 10 years or more out of your knife easily. Once every couple weeks or so per knife, I’d drop down to a 2k just to reset things. That’s mostly to make it easier on me though — it’s easier for me to see what needed to be done on a 2k. Anyways, just get good at hamaguriba and you shouldn’t have any problems at all.

I made my comments because if you’re confident with your skills, then maybe hearing other peoples’ sharpening habits would be helpful!

+1 on the Tsukiji Masamoto though! Maybe because it was my first real yanagiba, but I really love it. Especially the deep ura. I don’t get why more people don’t like them in the US.

Are you doing the hamaguri method on your 8k daily or only when you get down to 2k?

You are right man, hearing from you guys help a lot.

 

[Carl Kotte]

For me I kept two yanagiba - I would alternate day to day though.

I never got that high up in the sushi hierarchy myself, but every sushi chef at the best place I worked alternated between two yanagibas (letting one take a day’s rest while using the other, then back to the first etc etc). Every day at closing the chefs touched up or sharpened their Yanagibas, and they said they would never use a newly sharpened knife without letting it rest, at minimum a day, first. As @Ochazuke mentioned, the reason they gave had to do with the fish taking an unwelcome flavour of the knife. (I never had the opportunity to test this claim; I’m merely passing on information or opinions).

 

[M1k3]

Maybe to allow a little patina to form?

 

[CoteRotie]

Maybe to allow a little patina to form?

Exactly what I was thinking, freshly abraded soft iron cladding can definitely leave tastes and odors on food. I wonder if they help the patina along or just "rest" the knife for a day?

 

[Carl Kotte]

Exactly what I was thinking, freshly abraded soft iron cladding can definitely leave tastes and odors on food. I wonder if they help the patina along or just "rest" the knife for a day?

At the place I talked about they didn’t help the patina along. The knife stayed in a box after the sharpening (not a saya IIRC) until it was taken out. Then it went straight to fish prep.
I’m not sure where this leaves us with the patina hypothesis. Can a day in a box make that kind of a difference (the question is genuine, I have no idea!)?

 

[Ochazuke]

Yeah, we also just let it rest, no forcing a patina or anything.

 

[M1k3]

I didn't mean a full on patina. Just a slight one, instead of being fresh steel.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

The 8K Kitayama seems to be a popular stone for Yanagiba. I used a 5K stone for years before switching to the Kitayama. Would touch up my knives everyday after slicing a lot of fish.

Used no micro on yanagiba so edge very fragile and easy to touch up. Also burr removal on Ura side a light touch. Only for sashimi and sushi topping fish does not patina like other proteins, still I would clean yanagiba not like my Gyuto's I let patina.

 

[dafox]

Keith Sinclair, how did you clean your yanagiba?

The 8K Kitayama seems to be a popular stone for Yanagiba. I used a 5K stone for years before switching to the Kitayama. Would touch up my knives everyday after slicing a lot of fish.

Used no micro on yanagiba so edge very fragile and easy to touch up. Also burr removal on Ura side a light touch. Only for sashimi and sushi topping fish does not patina like other proteins, still I would clean yanagiba not like my Gyuto's I let patina.

How did you clean your yanagiba?

 

[dafox]

I generally use 2 300mm Yanagibas every sushi production shift. 1 for fish. 1 for everything else. Sharpen both every day because 1) they need it and 2) I love sharpening. Whatever the steel, whatever the edge profile, knife grind, type, etc.- for purposes of sashimi slicing, you’ve got to have a fine edge. Fine edges erode quickly because they are fine. It’s a high maintenance game and there’s no solution aside from the love of sharpening.

You don’t need full progression sharpening every day. For many many years, I only used Kitayama 8k for my sashimi blades. It’s a great stone and you’d be surprised what can be achieved given adjusted adapted technique.

If you aren’t already familiar with Hamaguri vs. Beta Togi sharpening and understanding of Koba, I suggest spending some time in research. Watch YouTube videos. Experiment. Keep an open mind. And remember which adjustments yielded positive/negative results.

If in doubt, spend more time on the stones!

I see that you have chosera 800 and 3000 stones, have you used the 8000, the snow white, on your yanagibas?

 

[SilverSwarfer]

I see that you have chosera 800 and 3000 stones, have you used the 8000, the snow white, on your yanagibas?

I have never been around or used the Snow White. I got in a groove for a long time and didn’t open my mind and start experimenting until about the time I joined KKF.

Can’t remember when last updated. I also have added some Shapton Glass (500, 2k, 16k) and a purple Shapton 30k, but that’s all another story.

If you’ve experience w/Snow White 8k and with Kitayama 8k: could I ask you to compare the two?

I’ve browsed the Snow White probably a dozen times. We replace our Kitayama about once every 18months. But I keep going back.

 

[dafox]

I have never been around or used the Snow White. I got in a groove for a long time and didn’t open my mind and start experimenting until about the time I joined KKF.

Can’t remember when last updated. I also have added some Shapton Glass (500, 2k, 16k) and a purple Shapton 30k, but that’s all another story.

If you’ve experience w/Snow White 8k and with Kitayama 8k: could I ask you to compare the two?

I’ve browsed the Snow White probably a dozen times. We replace our Kitayama about once every 18months. But I keep going back.

I dont have experience with either one but just bought a chosera 8000 to sharpen my new Masamoto honkasumi W#2 yanagiba. Single bevels are new to me, looking forward to sharpening and using the yanagiba for making nakiri sushi.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Keith Sinclair, how did you clean your yanagiba?

How did you clean your yanagiba?

I do not know how the pro's do it. Once a week BKF & sponge I had some sliced up sponges. Like I said in my experience fish does not stain much at all compared to other proteins I would like to know if others experience is the same.

 

[adam92]

I generally use 2 300mm Yanagibas every sushi production shift. 1 for fish. 1 for everything else. Sharpen both every day because 1) they need it and 2) I love sharpening. Whatever the steel, whatever the edge profile, knife grind, type, etc.- for purposes of sashimi slicing, you’ve got to have a fine edge. Fine edges erode quickly because they are fine. It’s a high maintenance game and there’s no solution aside from the love of sharpening.

You don’t need full progression sharpening every day. For many many years, I only used Kitayama 8k for my sashimi blades. It’s a great stone and you’d be surprised what can be achieved given adjusted adapted technique.

If you aren’t already familiar with Hamaguri vs. Beta Togi sharpening and understanding of Koba, I suggest spending some time in research. Watch YouTube videos. Experiment. Keep an open mind. And remember which adjustments yielded positive/negative results.

If in doubt, spend more time on the stones!

+1 for hamaguri, i also put microbevel at last .

 

[adam92]

I have never been around or used the Snow White. I got in a groove for a long time and didn’t open my mind and start experimenting until about the time I joined KKF.

Can’t remember when last updated. I also have added some Shapton Glass (500, 2k, 16k) and a purple Shapton 30k, but that’s all another story.

If you’ve experience w/Snow White 8k and with Kitayama 8k: could I ask you to compare the two?

I’ve browsed the Snow White probably a dozen times. We replace our Kitayama about once every 18months. But I keep going back.

I used both kitayama & snow white.

in my experience snow white get more on toothy edge & mirror polish, harder stone than kitayama.

 

[SilverSwarfer]

Specific to single bevels like Yanagibas- from my experience, I think it’s possible though not ideal, to use a single stone for everything.

I can’t compare the Naniwa Snow White 8k to the Kitayama 8k, I do have a Gesshin 6k, which might be comparable to the SW.

I have a love/hate relationship with the G6k, and possibly by extension, something like the Snow White. It’s a harder stone and leaves a super contrast for Kasumi with good pressure management. I think my dislikes are more focused on the 6k/8k variance rather than the inherent characteristics of the stone. What I don’t like is the less forgiving finishing quality, but honestly I’m probably just biased more toward what I have used for so long in the Kitayama.

Also of note I think with the Kitayama, more so than other synthetics I’ve used- is versatility. I feel like I can get a good variety of different results by managing slurry and pressure differently. And it’s definitely fine enough for uraoshi. The same could be true for the SW, I can’t say.

If you search hard enough you can find Kitayama 8k w/base and nagura for under $60. The SW looks significantly more expensive but I don’t know if it’s superior. Now I want one!

 

[SilverSwarfer]

I used both kitayama & snow white.

in my experience snow white get more on toothy edge & mirror polish, harder stone than kitayama.

Do you prefer or recommend one over the other?

 

[kayman67]

I think that Gesshin 6k comes now in 2 types of hardness. I loved the very hard one, but not for this kind of work. I haven't used the other yet.

Kitayama 8k is quite an aggressive stone if someone would want that. It can remove even small chips. It does take a bit more, but it can do it.

I can't comment on the SW, I never did a proper comparison between them. I just kept using the 8k Kitayama. Seemed just more convenient to me and trouble free.

 

[adam92]

Do you prefer or recommend one over the other?

I'll definitely recommend SW if compare to kitayama.

SW has much long life than Kitayama, before using SW i will soak for around 3 minute, i use fine nagura for helping.

I found SW get better result on sharpening. I've been using SW for around 2 years for everyday & sold my Kitayama to friend.

Even though SW expensive than other, go to SW won't regret for value.

 

[adam92]

Do you prefer or recommend one over the other?

But there's one thing i need to mention about SW is depands on your steel.

Because kitayama is softer stone get easily sharpen on harder steel like Blue one steel & SG 2.

SW take little bit longer but get sharper edge after done.

For Kasumi look go for kitayama.
For cutting feel & mirror polish go for SW.

Hope can help give you some idea & sorry for my english.

 

[adam92]

Do you prefer or recommend one over the other?

But there's one thing i need to mention about SW is depands on your steel.

Because kitayama is softer stone get easily sharpen on harder steel like Blue one steel & SG 2.

SW take little bit longer but get sharper edge & kept longer after done.

For Kasumi look go for kitayama.
For cutting feel & mirror polish go for SW.

Hope can help give you some idea & sorry for my english.

 

[JBroida]

I think that Gesshin 6k comes now in 2 types of hardness. I loved the very hard one, but not for this kind of work. I haven't used the other yet.

Kitayama 8k is quite an aggressive stone if someone would want that. It can remove even small chips. It does take a bit more, but it can do it.

I can't comment on the SW, I never did a proper comparison between them. I just kept using the 8k Kitayama. Seemed just more convenient to me and trouble free.

not so much 2 types of hardness, but 2 very different 6k stones. One resinoid based stone and one vitrified ceramic stone.