New Knife Request Questioneer

[meekle]

EDITED

LOCATION
USA (Minnesota)



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese (D slightly preferably over Octogon... Light weight wood slightly preferable over pakka)

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
240-270mm


Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No. In fact I think I'd prefer a carbon (looking hard at white II)

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
preference below $400. gag limit $550. cannot be upsold past $625


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Primary at the moment is home use, but I stage once or twice a week most weeks, and may be moving to a professional setting more consistently

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Slicing, chopping, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, slicing fish/shellfish/cephalopods, chopping and chiffonading fresh herbs.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
I've been (mis)using a 240mm sujihiki for a lot of my main tasks, and sometimes chopping with a [round bellied] santoku. Stuff that needs a bit more oomf, I have an 8 inch cheapo Wustoff

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Primarily pinch grip, pointer grip for longer slices [and tip work], hammer grip when rock chopping cilantro, etc

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
push/pull, slice, rocking for tiny herblets

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
I love the D shape handle more than the octagon, but love both more than Western. More interested in functionality and comfort than aesthetics, but I also tend to think that things that work really well are beautiful

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
I really like light, a lot. Love the D shaped ho handle. I have kind of fat knuckles, so a deeper blade can be nice (though really, let's be honest- anything deeper than a sujihiki will be a step up)


Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
I want something a bit longer so the next time I have to break down a box of cilantro, it doesn't take all damn day. I also want a longer legitimate flat spot than I have on my santoku [which I've noticed doesn't actually have a flat spot], so when slicing peas and things, I don't have to move 4-5 damn inches to cut all the way down the length without leaving a few fibers connected. I think I like thin- the idea of a laser sounds appealing (though I don't know if anything I've used has actually been a "laser" so it's hard to say, but so far in my experience, I've the thinner the high quality knife, the more I've enjoyed using it), so long as it isn't completely about to die the first time I rock chop or come across a nut and I don't want to have to worry too much about it if I have to toss it in a hotel pan for a few minutes with some other knives while I move my station. Willing to pay a bit more to make sure that the edge geometry and grind are as ideal as possible- ie convexity and consistency are there with F&F as I don't really have the means to redo the edge at this point.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
A week would be preferable. At least two days of hard work in a professional kitchen would be nice, though as long as the knife lasts a full 12 hour shift and doesn't take more than 20 or so minutes to resharpen after, I'd be more concerned about it having a sharper edge for that time than a less sharp edge that lasts forever.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes
Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
No (but planning to do own maintenance on nicer knives)
If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes
Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

 

[Nemo]

You need to decide if you want a thin knife or food release. Can't have both. It's like saying "I want a people mover that handles like a sportscar".

Note that a knife with good food release usually glides through soft & wet food (potato, zucchini, cabbage, etc) easier than a laser. Lasers glide through tall hard food (sweet potato, large carrots).

If you come down on the side of food release, you have almost described Yoshikane SKD Tsuchime (apart from steel type). it's got great food release in a thicker knife. Steel is semistainless with easy sharpenability (almost carbon easy) and good edge retention. It's clad in stainless with a regular large tsuchime (hammered) pattern which I personally find very attractive. The wide bevels are convexed. the blade is nicely finished with rounded spine and choil. The handle is basic ho (magnolia) D shaped, making it quite balde heavy (in a good way). The profile is very flat and not particularly tall. It's a great value knife.

I bought mine here in Aus, but I think that Epicurean Edge (I think they are on the west coast of USA somewhere) has them. They are a forum vendor and they apparently offer some sort of discount to forum members.

 

[chinacats]

Lower your budget...I'd try not to spend over 300 on your first nice gyuto (200-300 is a real sweet spot for performance).

 

[McMan]

Lower your budget...is try not to spend over 300 on your first nice gyuto (200-300 is a real sweet spot for performance).

Agreed.
With your budget, you're in gyuto ($250) + petty ($150) territory. With your "gag" budget, you're in gyuto ($250) + petty ($150) + two stone territory ($150).

 

[meekle]

Alright, I think in the question between release and thin, I don't mind wiping my blade off. In the question of pay a bit more for something with a quality grind, vs save something and have an inconsistent grind that's going to stick because of poor blade geometry, I dont have the experience to correct it, but I'll pay the money to get have it right when it comes to me. I had the impression that there were some bad grinds or geometries out there that didn't aid to cutting but do cause sticking, but maybe I misunderstood that. As long as it's sharp, I dont have trouble with things like zucchini and tomatoes- gliding through carrots sounds a bit more appealing to me.

And if I'm going to have a bit more sticking, I'm thinking that I might actually want a flat blade, rather than hammered, so the little divots don't grab cilantro bits.

I'll edit my original post to reflect all this when I get back to a computer.

Re: prices- if I'm not looking to start a gyuto collection, but I'm still wanting to have something I can be proud of down the line- would you still suggest going a bit less expensive?

Also, on the length thing, any suggestions? I've got fairly large hands and usually enough space, but it seems like 270s might be less common? Less decent selection? Definitely don't want a 240 on the shorter side, though.

 

[Nemo]

Food relese is not just about wiping the food off your blade. It's also about how easily the knife goes through wet food. The surface tension of the water on the blade actually grabs the knife, which is more of a problem on knives without a convex grind. Thin knives do not have room for much convexity.

There are certainty some ordinary geometries and inconsitent grinds around but we can certainly find you some good ones for under 300 USD.

If you want a really thin (Laser) knife, the Gesshin Ginga is often recommended (although I have never used one).

A little less thin, look at Akebono or Akatsuki.

A little less thin again, look at Tanaka Najishi, although its profile is less flat.

A little less thin, look at Gesshin Gengetsu. I would class the Gengetsu as a thinnish middleweight.

As you go down that list, food release improves and wedging becomes slightly more apparent. As I mentioned, I can't comment on the Ginga but the last 3 knives on the list have a pretty well optimised grind for balancing food release against theit thinness. In my view, the Gengetsu probably has the best optimsed tradeoff between thinness and food release of the 3 knives.

 

[chinacats]

FWIW, some very expensive knives are known to often have crap grinds...for example TF. Also depending on what you've used in the past, food release and wedging will be much better than say a Henckels or Wustie but the point stands that some lasers are like glue with items sticking. Have you looked at a Gesshin Kagero? This knife offers a nice balance of everything and the price fits your budget with room left for a stone or 2.

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...kagero/products/gesshin-kagero-240mm-wa-gyuto

 

[meekle]

I will look into these- I get the impression that I'm subtly being steer away from a 270mm or a D handle? Is something that I've always found super comfortable in a sujihiki the wrong style handle for a gyuto? Not that I mind the octagonal handle on the santoku, it just doesn't feel quite as perfect, if that makes sense?

 

[meekle]

And now that no one at all has recommended it... and at the risk of being all over the board and completely inconsistent... what are people's thoughts on the kochi 270mm kurouchi wa-gyuto? I was thinking non-cladded, unless I'm just wrong?

 

[chinacats]

Kochi is a great knife, but it has a wide bevel which some people like and others don't. I've owned a couple Kochis and will probably have more as they are incredibly thin behind the edge and excellent cutters. As to handle I like both styles and that usually doesn't come into play in my recommendations. Sounds to me like you should give Jon a shout and get his input. As to 270 go for it if that's what you think your like... what size knife are you currently using?

 

[meekle]

a 240mm sujihiki a lot of the time

 

[meekle]

Ok, after talking with Jon, and reading through a few more threads, I think I've narrowed it down to a 270mm Ginga, Watanabe, or Kochi. I'm leaning towards the Ginga. Does anyone know why Watanabe uses White II for a bunch of his knives, but not for gyutos?

 

[meekle]

Leaning hard towards the Ginga- I looked and didn't see any reviews on the Ginga gyutos, but may have just missed them somehow- can anyone point me to something I missed or chime in on their experience with a Ginga? If you used a longer one that would be even more useful to know. I was left with one sort of niggling worry: I couldn't tell if the amount that Jon was stressing the reactivity of the knife was that he thought I might be unaware, being new, or because the Ginga is super extra sensitive and will spontaneously explode if I don't wipe it down every 10 minutes on the dot while chopping herbs or something?

 

[Nemo]

I'm confused about why you are looking at two knives that are at opposite ends of the thinness (Ginga) - thickness (Watanabe) spectrum.

Completely different knives.

 

[Xenif]

Leaning hard towards the Ginga- I looked and didn't see any reviews on the Ginga gyutos, but may have just missed them somehow- can anyone point me to something I missed or chime in on their experience with a Ginga? If you used a longer one that would be even more useful to know. I was left with one sort of niggling worry: I couldn't tell if the amount that Jon was stressing the reactivity of the knife was that he thought I might be unaware, being new, or because the Ginga is super extra sensitive and will spontaneously explode if I don't wipe it down every 10 minutes on the dot while chopping herbs or something?

Any mono steel white 2 will be pretty reactive, 10 mins after cutting imho is far too long to wait to wipe down after cutting for a carbon knife. If thats the sort of thing you are concerned about but would still like a Ginga, they are made in stainless.

 

[chinacats]

The original finish on the Wat is more reactive than the Ginga. As to the Kochi, the V2 kurouchis are what I've owned. Are you looking at these, the white 2 stainless or the blue 2 Migaki?

Couple other thoughts...a 270 Wat is probably going to be pretty heavy. The Ginga will run a bit short. As far as monosteel white, it's not crazy reactive when compared to iron clad knives...ku will seem less reactive.

 

[meekle]

I was getting nervous about all of the people that don't seem fond of lasers, and saying that they stick a ton and sort of behaving like the edges are exploding porcelain. I don't want a "fragile" knife! And everyone seemed to rave about the kochi and how it made all prep work a breeze and cut through everything like a hot knife through a cloud while choirs of valkyries sang your praises. How the grind and f&f are exceptional. And then every thread about the kochi seems to devolve into- yeah, but have you used the watanabe?

But I'm remembering now that I've been mainly using a santoku and a sujihiki that are both about 2mm or less at the heel spine and haven't had any trouble with them. The kochi or watanabe sound like the safer choice- I'm certainly not going to hate them and they'll be an upgrade from what I have and probably a bit sturdier. But the I feel like the ginga has more potential to be a knife I absolutely love. It's maybe a bit riskier choice, but I'm leaning towards taking that chance.

In fact, I was going to say that the three knives I'm considering now are the ginga, the hd2 and the ikkansi tadatuna. Which might be a better comparison trio?

 

[mc2442]

FWIW, a 270 mm is going to be a hell of a knife, regardless of maker. Are you sure that a 240 mm will not do? Most people prefer a 210-240 mm depending on their cutting board/work station.

You posted as I was replying. I have not used a watanbe, it is on my list to try, but I am a big fan of the Kochi line..I own several. I have really not heard anything but praise for the line.

 

[meekle]

FWIW, a 270 mm is going to be a hell of a knife, regardless of maker. Are you sure that a 240 mm will not do? Most people prefer a 210-240 mm depending on their cutting board/work station.

I mean, I feel like the theme of this thread is that I’m not sure of anything >.<

 

[meekle]

Any mono steel white 2 will be pretty reactive, 10 mins after cutting imho is far too long to wait to wipe down after cutting for a carbon knife. If thats the sort of thing you are concerned about but would still like a Ginga, they are made in stainless.

I mean, I'm in the habit of wiping my knife immediately upon finishing a cutting task, but sometimes I'm cutting things for about 45 minutes straight or more without a pause.

 

[JaVa]

If it doesn't have to be a mono W2 then Gengetsu W2 could work for ya. It seems to tick most of your requirements pretty well. Get that and call it a day?

 

[Nemo]

Gengetu SS sharpens pretty nice too. And will cope better with longer between wipes and a little acid. I would expect the edge retention is a bit longer as well.

 

[meekle]

I'm going to go later today and try using some knives that are ~270mm. We don't really have anywhere in town that specializes in decent Japanese knives, but a large 10 inch or 11 inch should be an approximation of the size, yes? And the lasers will be lighter and more agile I'm assuming. But I think my current beater 8 inch wüsthof is way too small. The current measurements on the 270mm, according to JKI is actually 263. I could probably get away with a 240 if the overwhelming advice is that the extra inch means the knife is going to be less versatile. I think in general, I'm not going to be intimidated by the size, but I could be wrong? I know I thought my 240mm suji, I dunno what length santoku, and 8 inch wüsthof felt woefully small and inadequate to the task the last time I had to break down an entire box of cilantro, etc...

I feel like I'm going to be responsible enough to take care of a monosteel white carbon blade, I'm not too worried about that. My lasting concern is that, while I'm drawn to the idea of a 270mm lazer, I'm getting the impression from reactions that that would be a very niche blade, and I want something to be as functional as possible- I want to be able to up to my station with two or three knives, rather than my bag- a gyuto, my paring knife, and maybe a petty or utility knife (one project at a time!). Everywhere I cook (and home) has large enough cutting boards to support 270mm, and it might take a bit of an adjustment period, but the lazers are light enough that the added weight between a 240 and 270mm isn't going to make a significant difference on my level of fatigue after 8-12 hours of use either... but I'm worried that so few people claim that their goto knife is a 270mm gyuto that there's something about the geometry that makes them less than ideal? Same concern with the idea of it being a lazer- the theme of a lot of comments I've read around the board is that people love their lazers, but they also don't really view them as their main default knife that they use all the time for everything, so much as a sort of niche tool? Or at least that's the impression that I get? So I guess the question is- am I screwing myself on the versatility front if I get a 270mm Ginga?

 

[Triggaaar]

I think for most people, 270 is longer than needed. However, you aren't most people. If you find your 8" wusthof way too small, maybe 270 is right for you (obviously 240 is in between). And if you're spending 8-12 hours using the knife, you're cutting a lot of stuff, and the extra length might help.

How much of the time are you needing the blade length, versus how often are you doing more delicate tip work?

I've never spent that length of time at a cutting board, I'm just a home cook, but I'd guess a slightly thicker blade would survive consistent long sessions better.

If I were in your position, I'd try and get something 240-270mm from the used section of the forum and see how it goes, then re-sell it for a similar price after a few weeks. This would give you the answers you seek for the price of postage.

 

[Nemo]

I personally find that food release is more important than thinness if I want speed of food preparation. YMMV. It's possible that if your knife skills are superior to mine it won't matter as much to you. And lasers are fun. If I could only have one knife, it would probably be a middlewight. I think.... or maybe a workhorse... oh, I dunno. I hope I never have to make that choice.

Knife length is very personal. I personally like 240-270 for a gyuto. FWIW, if you get a gyuto that you decide you don't like, a 240 would probably be easier to offlaod on BST.

 

[JaVa]

There's nothing wrong with the 270 size. If that's what feels right then go for that one. There used to be more love for the 270 a while back and I have no idea where the 270 lovers are hiding these days. It's a very efficient tool for pro stuff if you have enough space to use it.

It'll be harder to sell it used because the demand substantially lower, but that's not why your buying it anyway.

Edit. Nemo already covered this while I was writing, but there ya go.

 

[ThinMan]

270 is a great length. As you observe, many are not quite 270, which is not a bad thing. Watch the weight, though, on a 270. Over 250 grams or so is pretty heavy. Of course, you won't have that problem with a laser.

Konosuke HD2?

 

[Colorado_cutter]

I've been using a monosteel Ashi Hamono white #2 cleaver as my main knife for the past five years. My experience has been that this steel (same as used in the Gesshin Ginga carbon) is quite inert when a good patina has developed. Here's what it looks like now after a couple of years of patina:

I'm not always careful about wiping it down. For instance, one day I'm cutting onions, the doorbell rings, I put down the knife on the pile of onions, chat 10-15 minutes, return to onions, finish, wash knife. Result: no discoloration of onions, knife has a few small darker/blackish patches in the general gray-ish patina. No rust, no problem. In general, I'll use this knife on fruits, citrus, whatever- if I have it out already. I don't pull it out to cut a lemon, but I will to cut a tomato.

 

[meekle]

Let's say I bow to the wisdom of the people (and that is why I'm here) and get the Gengetsu- It only comes in 240, but I mean, that's probably plenty- I can pick up a beater mercer or vic for destroying boxes of herbs...

As far as I can tell, no one has really ever regretted getting a Gengetsu. Is this accurate? For people who have both a Gengetsu and a Ginga- which do you prefer as your daily use knife?

 

[Nemo]

Why can't you use the Gengetsu on herbs?