OH what to get??? Usuba? Yanagi? $500 budget!

[brooksie967]

Let's start off by telling you what I already have.

I've already got a Takeda 270mm Kiritsuke, a Takeda Nakiri and a konosuke fujiyama wa petty.

I'm looking at getting something single bevel but not sure what I should... I'm thinking either a Usuba or a Yanagi.

Reasons for me to get a usuba: Well, obviously being able to peel carrot and daikon and cucumber and other veggies and turn them into needle thin pieces is totally awesome. I do lots of 'asian inspired' cooking so these igredients are commonplace in my home kitchen. My nakiri does an excellent job of the majority of my veggie prep but isn't wonderful for peeling etc.

Reasons for me to get a yanagi: I like making bulgogi and other dishes where slicing beef and other stuff extremely thin is important to me. My kiritsuke handles this well already but I can only imagine what a serious yanagi can pull off!

My budget is $500.

I've already looked at the Gesshin Hide lines of stuff as well as konosuke and shigefusa. Shig, while I drool over it, is way out of my price range (from what I can find). Gesshin Hide seems like a great knife but from what Jon tells me they are thicker spined than most other knives and that might be a turn off to me as I'm used to laser thin konosukes and takedas.

Then comes the steel. I'm used to Blue #2 and aogami super. I've been sharpening my knives and others for years now as well as over 500 straight razors on japanese natural stones so i'm confident in my sharpening ability and with a little work on the URA sharpening I'm sure I can nail single bevel knives. SO with that said, all I really care about is sharpness. Retention isn't an issue for me as this is all for home use and I can maintain my own edges. If i were in a commercial kitchen this might be a different requirement but sharpness here is paramount.

Please recommend brands/smiths and steel choices and explain WHY you are suggesting this choice to me!

Thanks all!

Jeremy

 

[knyfeknerd]

Is your Takeda Kiritsuke a gyuto or a traditional single-bevel?

 

[chinacats]

Maybe he means k-tipped gyuto? If not, you should buy a gyuto.

I don't see any reason to buy a yani to cut cow...maybe an usuba for the veggies? Too cut meat, try a suji.

 

[brooksie967]

Yeah the takeda kiritsuke is essentially a gyuto with a less bellied edge profile and it is double bevel.

Why would you suggest a suji? Essentially itd be the same thing as my takeda with a shorter blade height.

 

[chinacats]

Yanagiba is for slicing raw fish...

For clarity, a Kiritsuke is a cross of yani and usuba(?); it is a single bevel knife. People usually call what you have K-tipped gyuto.

Suji is for slicing meat (beef, pork, etc...). I usually use a gyuto for this purpose, others will be able to make a good recommendation, but would suggest skipping the yanagiba your stated use.

 

[daveb]

Why would you suggest a suji? Essentially itd be the same thing as my takeda with a shorter blade height.

Umm, Because that's what it's designed for?

 

[knyfeknerd]

IF you're really wanting to go single-bevel.....I guess try an usuba. I would vote for the Kamagata Usuba as the Kakugata Usuba will have a similar profile to your nakiri.

I find a lot of people to be disappointed with their single bevels. Yes, they get wicked sharp, etc. And yes it's cool...but the edges are much more delicate and fragile. You will be pissed when your tips chip off, and there's no fast "bang bang bang bang" chopping on the cutting board, or you will get a chipped edge.
They require patience, a light touch and finesse.

I've found little use for my traditional single-bevel knives in most cooking. These are made mostly for single Japanese style cuisine and techniques. Yes, it's cool to try katsuramuki, but you can still do it with a nakiri.

I vote suji as well. It's an all-purpose slicer and a damn good one at that.

Give Jon at JKI a call. He won't steer you wrong.
,

 

[brooksie967]

I know what you are saying about the kiritsuke. If you look st takeda knives what he calls a kiritsuke is a gyuto with angles tip and flatter edge profile. I don't think a sujihiki isnwhat I'm after as i can't see it being much thinner than my kiritsuke-gyuto, and cant see it being any sharper since both are double bevel.

 

[knyfeknerd]

You're missing the point.
The thinness of the blade isn't necessarily going to make it a better cutter. The geometry/grind will help you out more than the thickness of the spine, etc.


Or just don't listen to us. We have tried A LOT of these knives out and own them, etc.
I'm just trying to help you from making the same mistakes a lot of others(including myself) have made.

That extra "sharpness" you hope to obtain from a single-bevel isn't all it's cracked up to be. Trust me.


*mic drop*

 

[brooksie967]

Wow, great answers.... "that's what it was designed for" other than something informative, or easy to understand as to what about a suji has to offer over a 270mm knife with a fairly flat edge profile with the same grind as a suji. I'm not understanding how that would perform any better.

Didn't think inwas being argumentative, just inquisitive.

The only difference I'm seeing as i browse knifeshops is the blade height and tip profile. Thinness, bevel etc are all comparable.

 

[brooksie967]

Anyways, id like to keep this on track. If you arent familiar with takeda knives i apologize for not mentioning that he doesn't make single bevel other than by special request.

Does anyone have any other answers to my questions about sharpness / longevity out of the steels typically used in these styles of knife? Blue 1, blue 2, white 1, white 2, aogami super etc?

 

[brooksie967]

Also, if it makes any difference, I'm looking at the prep of raw meat, not cooked when it comes to a slicer. The takeda does a fine job of cutting roasts and bird etc.

 

[Castalia]

For something unique, I was going to suggest a mukimono as an interesting single bevel, but Maxsim is out of stock:
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/toyama-noborikoi-mukimono-135mm/

but instead how about Aframes Tokyo (located in Hawaii):

http://yhst-27988581933240.stores.yahoo.net/monzaburo-mukimono-aoko-180mm-blade-kn180.html

I agree with Knyfeknerd, the single bevel usuba/mukimono is screamingly sharp, but fragile unless used with finesse. No banging on the cutting board.

Sujihiki would be best for thinly slicing beef.

 

[brooksie967]

I've actually visited Takeshi Aoki in mililani hawaii, amazing guy. I've been emailing him back and forth about a knife but wanted others opinions too.

 

[Castalia]

That is cool! I used to live in Honolulu for several years but was not so into knives back then. I decided on a small mukimono as a first single bevel for small veggie prep after I had a pretty broad range of western and Japanese double bevels. The single bevel is fun to pull off the rack from time to time, but it is a unique specialized tool, really like cutting with a razor. From your description you have a good range of daily use knives: a high end gyuto, nakiri and petty. That is all you need, but of course get the single bevel if you want a special toy to play with, but I don't think you will be reaching for it on a daily basis.

 

[Mucho Bocho]

Brook, don't listen to these guys. I think you should build out a nice single knife collection. Deba, Usuba, Yanagibi, in at least three sizes. Get something really nice too. Just one thing, give me a heads up first before they hit the BST.

 

[brooksie967]

Lol wow, you guys are super awesome.

You're funny but If you dont have anything to add but sarcasm please move on.

 

[echerub]

Heya Jeremy. I'll differ a little from the general consensus so far.

For thin-slicing beef, like for bulgolgi, I'd pick up a yanagiba or a (true and single-bevel) kiritsuke. However, this is because I don't own a suji anymore (I didn't like them) and *I'm used to* using my yanagiba and kiritsuke. I'd pick one of those to use because they're what I have and what I like using - but not because they are intrinsically better for the job. Single-bevel knives are different from double-bevels. They take a bit of getting used to, and they aren't as tough as double-bevels. So you certainly can go for a single-bevel, but as the others have said, it's not going to be a magic bullet, there is a greater learning curve, and the scope of use for them is going to be a bit smaller than for a comparable double-bevel.

But... a lot of what we buy around here is because we *want* to use it, not because we *need* to use it. So if that's what you really want to try out, go for it. Just bear in mind that you ought to have the right (and enough) motivation beyond the expectation that they're going to be miracle tools.

There are a lot of good choices for a good yanagiba under $500. In fact, since it'll be your first... maybe the first of many, maybe the first and only... I wouldn't go with anything top-end. Get something good but not extravagant, and you can do it well under $500. Gesshin Uraku or Yoshihiro honkasumi are worth considering. I'd take a look at Tanaka "Damascus" as well. Suisin or Sakai Takayuki are reputable and good. Different ones feel different, it's true - but when you're just starting out, don't worry about that. You just want something that's made well (enough) that wasn't made with big corners being cut and then start trying and learning. Over time, if you like the experience, you'll try different ones and figure out slight differences in what works better for you or not. That's for later, though.

If you don't have a knife store nearby that you trust where you can drop by and handle things in person and ask questions, speak to Jon at JKI again. He'll direct you to something good without any pressure to spend more than necessary... unless you really want to max out your $500 budget, in which case he'll be happy to help too!

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

As chinacats said, i would consider a suji as the logical option to slice very thin portions of soft meat. I find it is much easier to slice soft small-sized stuff (for instance, cherry tomatoes) with my Konosuke suji than with the 270mm Takeda if paper thin slices are what you are aiming at. It's a better tool for the task. But if you are hot for a single bevel, go ahead and try one by all means!

 

[daveb]

Reasons for me to get a yanagi: I like making bulgogi and other dishes where slicing beef and other stuff extremely thin is important to me.

Thanks all!

Jeremy

I don't see any reason to buy a yani to cut cow.To cut meat, try a suji.

Why would you suggest a suji?

Umm, Because that's what it's designed for?

Wow, great answers.... "that's what it was designed for" ... I'm not understanding how that would perform any better.

Sujihiki would be best for thinly slicing beef.

As chinacats said, i would consider a suji as the logical option to slice very thin portions of soft meat.

Yanagiba is for slicing raw fish... Suji is for slicing meat (beef, pork, etc...).

You're funny but If you dont have anything to add but sarcasm please move on.

Hey, I've been away. Did I miss anything?

Differences between a Yanagiba and a Sujihiki

https://www.google.com/search?q=sit...rums.com+difference+between+suji+and+yanagiba

 

[Cheeks1989]

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/23261-Gesshin-Hide-Gyuto-and-Usuba, I would get this Usuba.

 

[user 16756]

Lol wow, you guys are super awesome.

You're funny but If you dont have anything to add but sarcasm please move on.

so you asked a question and you didnt like the answer.

then you lashed out and didnt like the response.

at the very least you are doing a good job proving everyone right.

 

[brooksie967]

so you asked a question and you didnt like the answer.

then you lashed out and didnt like the response.

at the very least you are doing a good job proving everyone right.

You are very good st pointing out what other people say without taking into consideration the context of the reply.

Not sure why you are all so horny over this and this isn't meant to be an argument.

Thank you to those of you that took the time to actually respond as your info is helpful.


I'm surprised that this is the tone of this forum. Ill just stick to the razor forums from now on. People complain about attitude over there but it's worse here.

 

[Godslayer]

Lol this thread. I'm actually in the same boat as you. I'm trying to decide on a first single bevel. The issue they stated is why to which I'd simple say I want to. Single bevels tend to be less versitial than traditional double bevels which is indeed a fair point but as many of us me included have multiple of the same style knife I see no reason to not venture beyond our current comfort zone and try something different. I'm currently going back and forth between yanagiba and kiritsuke. I was planing on getting a yanagiba a while ago but dave b suggested a sujihiki and I agreed with his logic. I think a yanagi would be a fun slicing toy and there is 0 reason why it can't slice steaks etc. Sure it might not be as practical as a sujihiki but it can be done with great success I know 2 chefs who do their carpaccio with one as they can get better thinner slices. Which is awesome it always makes me laugh. Usuba is off my radar as other than that cut where you peel the daikon and make paper I can do everything exceptionally well with my nakiri Gyuto and petty. I feel kiritsuke or a single bevel funayuki( probably not the right spelling) would honestly be my and you best bet. They are extremely versitile and can do most cuts. Plus it's awesome for pull cuts and daddy loves pull cuts. If you can't make your mind up and I don't blame you. You could get a gesshin uruka 300 mm yanagi a 180 usuba and have enough pocket change for a new stone or some groceries to play with. I apologize for rambling and like you I do t know whats best but wanted to jump in this thread haha. Anyways good luck and I wish you well on the road of single bevels I'll join you shortly.

 

[chinacats]

Lol this thread. I'm actually in the same boat as you. I'm trying to decide on a first single bevel. The issue they stated is why to which I'd simple say I want to. Single bevels tend to be less versitial than traditional double bevels which is indeed a fair point but as many of us me included have multiple of the same style knife I see no reason to not venture beyond our current comfort zone and try something different. I'm currently going back and forth between yanagiba and kiritsuke. I was planing on getting a yanagiba a while ago but dave b suggested a sujihiki and I agreed with his logic. I think a yanagi would be a fun slicing toy and there is 0 reason why it can't slice steaks etc. Sure it might not be as practical as a sujihiki but it can be done with great success I know 2 chefs who do their carpaccio with one as they can get better thinner slices. Which is awesome it always makes me laugh. Usuba is off my radar as other than that cut where you peel the daikon and make paper I can do everything exceptionally well with my nakiri Gyuto and petty. I feel kiritsuke or a single bevel funayuki( probably not the right spelling) would honestly be my and you best bet. They are extremely versitile and can do most cuts. Plus it's awesome for pull cuts and daddy loves pull cuts. If you can't make your mind up and I don't blame you. You could get a gesshin uruka 300 mm yanagi a 180 usuba and have enough pocket change for a new stone or some groceries to play with. I apologize for rambling and like you I do t know whats best but wanted to jump in this thread haha. Anyways good luck and I wish you well on the road of single bevels I'll join you shortly.

Wanting to try a single bevel is a perfectly good answer for the reason to try one...cutting dead cow is not so good...done here

 

[user 16756]

People complain about attitude over there but it's worse here.

I mean YOU are the problem in here as far as I can tell so if there's less of a problem over there it's because youre doing something different.

if you know everything already why ask a question?

 

[ThEoRy]

I think you are getting caught up in thinness and thinking thinner means better. It does not. Usuba for example are much thicker at the spine than your Takeda yet it's at the edge where the cutting takes place. Ultra thin and sharp at the edge with more weight from the thick spine behind it creates a knife which has more natural downforce essentially doing more of the work for you. This is important when using the knife properly so as not to damage it as well by thrusting it downward unnecessarily.

The same can be said for yanagi and thicker sujis. The thicker heavier blade slices easier through raw and boneless protein with less manual effort.

Single beveled knives have to be thicker in general anyway due to the hollow ground ura. You simply have to have more meat there in order for it to be ground away. You wouldn't want to blow a hole out the other side now would you?

 

[pete84]

Single bevel knives require trained and practiced skills to use effectively. They are, by their very nature, specialized tools - purpose built. It's a-ok in my book to use a yanagi to break down a rib primal or a whole chicken, if that's what you want to do. Heck, I've used 180-210mm yanagi as a "line knife" in the past. But that's not what they are made for. They are made for cutting boneless fish filets into thin slices for sushi or sashimi. That's probably why, when you asked for others' opinions on cutting thin sliced beef, many people responded that a suji is better suited - because that's what it is made for.

Buying a nice yanagi (or any knife for that matter) doesn't mean the purchase somehow makes a person better at slicing or cutting ANYTHING. Knife SKILLS are the key. I've seen people with expensive custom knives who can't dice an onion to save their lives. If you try and use a single bevel like a double bevel, it will steer like crazy. None of your cuts will come out even and consistent until you learn to compensate for it.

Usuba is also highly specialized. Highly.

If you want to buy and use a single bevel knife, do it. Try it. And make a thread about your experiences and ask more meaningful questions so you and everyone else here can learn together. Not this garbage where you tell everyone their opinion sucks because you don't agree. Why bother asking to begin with if your opinions are already set?

 

[Timthebeaver]

Single bevel knives require trained and practiced skills to use effectively. They are, by their very nature, specialized tools - purpose built. It's a-ok in my book to use a yanagi to break down a rib primal or a whole chicken, if that's what you want to do. Heck, I've used 180-210mm yanagi as a "line knife" in the past. But that's not what they are made for. They are made for cutting boneless fish filets into thin slices for sushi or sashimi. That's probably why, when you asked for others' opinions on cutting thin sliced beef, many people responded that a suji is better suited - because that's what it is made for.

Buying a nice yanagi (or any knife for that matter) doesn't mean the purchase somehow makes a person better at slicing or cutting ANYTHING. Knife SKILLS are the key. I've seen people with expensive custom knives who can't dice an onion to save their lives. If you try and use a single bevel like a double bevel, it will steer like crazy. None of your cuts will come out even and consistent until you learn to compensate for it.

Usuba is also highly specialized. Highly.

If you want to buy and use a single bevel knife, do it. Try it. And make a thread about your experiences and ask more meaningful questions so you and everyone else here can learn together. Not this garbage where you tell everyone their opinion sucks because you don't agree. Why bother asking to begin with if your opinions are already set?

Nailed it.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Sounds like you enjoy sharpening. Usuba's & other very flat single bevels correct sharpening is important to maintain blade geometry. JMO would get a quality but not expensive yanagiba. Something like the white steel Gesshin Uraku. You get to learn SB sharpening & not spend a fortune on a blade that you will not use as much. They are beautiful and fun to sharpen.

A lot of people go out and buy an expensive 300mm Yanagiba and do not use them. They are specialized blades for slicing fish. I used them a lot at work, still have a couple don't get used much since retired keep them oiled so they don't rust.

I have a small 210 white steel yanagi keep at Antie's house. Use to prepare meals, even cut up meat in Korean plate lunches. Always know I have a sharp knife stored when I go over there.