question about troubles when raising burr

[Blank Blades.]

I've never tried the qtip thing, but it should work.

I say go for it with the 400, it will make it easier for you to know what you're looking for in the future. 400 isn't crazy coarse or anything, but it should make things a bit easier for you.

You can get it done with the 800 though.

 

[big_adventure]

If you feel a burr on one side but can't raise on from the other, it's basically guaranteed that you are sharpening at too low of an angle. If you feel the burr at some points along the edge but not at other points, it means that your angle isn't hitting the edge along the entire surface. This might be because you are changing your angle, and it might be because the existing bevel isn't exactly even.

Given that it's on your weak side, and that you are a somewhat inexperienced sharpener, it's likely that your angle isn't consistent.

The best thing to do, if you don't want to take "chances" on your good blade, go down to the dollar store or a supermarket, pick up a cheap blade, and go to town on it. Just practice angle retention and consistent burr raising. You don't care about the blade, this is all about developing your skills.

The sharpie trick is really useful for ensuring you are getting the bevel. But you probably shouldn't need it for more than a handful of reps before you can feel what you are doing.

Once you get good, you can raise a burr on a well-maintained knife in seconds even on a high-grit stone (3K+). 800 is fine.

 

[r0bz]

i find this also myself that i have hard time feeling for burrs because of that

I've found the swarf buildup on my fingers from certain stones can greatly dampen my ability to feel burrs, especially smaller ones, and often have to scrub my fingertips clean to check my progress. Only with really muddy stones though and only because after 20 years of manning a flattop grill, my fingers are pretty much numb anyways.

 

[Benuser]

Use your nails.

 

[M1k3]

Swipe the edge across a towel with a lot of lint.

 

[r0bz]

Swipe the edge across a towel with a lot of lint.

what is lint ?

 

[Kawa]

I guess it the fluffy hairy stuff that a towel distinguishes from any other cloth.

I'm guessing, but what other property can a towel have

 

[Benuser]

Earlier I've suggested the use of a permanent marker and a loupe. A very reliable method to make sure you've reached the very edge. Even if for some reason you can't feel the burr you may sure it's there if the very edge has been reached on the opposite side. It's even more reliable then looking for a burr, as with some steels burrs occur even before the very edge got reached. As for abrading the burr: you may use the marker and loupe again. It sounds fastidious but is a very safe method.

 

[Benuser]

I guess it the fluffy hairy stuff that a towel distinguishes from any other cloth.

I'm guessing, but what other property can a towel have

A linen towel is slightly abrasive. Not enough to be helpful with soft stainless, though.

 

[Bolt Thrower]

i have a few questions about raising burr
1. what are the reasons behind being unable to raise a burr?
2. why is it easier for me to raise a burr on one side than the other?
3. why is it hard for me to feel the burr ?
4. how do I know if I established a big enough of a burr ? sometimes I can feel something but is it good enough
5.I am only using a sun tiger 800# stone maybe I am not getting burrs because the stone is too high of grit to start with?

1. Sharpening at an incorrect angle. Your sharpening angle is too acute if you are unable to effectively raise a burr.

2. You are hitting the correct angle on one side, and not getting it on the other. Many knives come with edges that are not perfectly even, i.e. one side could be ground at 12 degrees and the other 16. Or it can be user error.

3. I'm not sure. I will say the higher grit stone you use, the harder burrs are to detect. There are different methods you can try. I rub my thumb down the edge, spine to edge direction.

Under 1,000 grit is easy to detect by feel. For higher grits I prefer looking for burrs instead of feeling for them. For this a loupe is invaluable.

4. There is no need to ever raise a large burr. The point of raising one is to make sure you are consistently grinding the full length of the edge. This can be checked by any burr large enough to be detected.

Raising one larger than needed means you'll waste steel grinding it off later. In fact, once you are at a comfortable level of experience, you may choose to intentionally avoid raising a burr. I do. I have knives I've sharpened at the same angles for 5-10 years. I can tell by audio feedback and the feel on the stones if I'm hitting the apex or not. I try to avoid raising burrs during touch-ups because it takes longer than not raising one. I only use them when setting an edge or reprofiling an edge to a new angle.

5. 800 grit stone should be fine for being able to detect the burr. Coarser stones make it easier to detect but 800 isn't so high that it'll make it impossible.

One last thing:

Don't get overly reliant on burrs. Just because you raise one doesn't mean you've established a clean bevel. One stroke that's at too obtuse of an angle and you've raised a good burr, even if your bevel isn't fully set. Assuming you aren't doing convexed edges or microbevels, the full width of the bevel, from apex to the shoulder transitioning into the primary grind, it should be a flat, clean surface.

 

[r0bz]

1. Sharpening at an incorrect angle. Your sharpening angle is too acute if you are unable to effectively raise a burr.

2. You are hitting the correct angle on one side, and not getting it on the other. Many knives come with edges that are not perfectly even, i.e. one side could be ground at 12 degrees and the other 16. Or it can be user error.

3. I'm not sure. I will say the higher grit stone you use, the harder burrs are to detect. There are different methods you can try. I rub my thumb down the edge, spine to edge direction.

Under 1,000 grit is easy to detect by feel. For higher grits I prefer looking for burrs instead of feeling for them. For this a loupe is invaluable.

4. There is no need to ever raise a large burr. The point of raising one is to make sure you are consistently grinding the full length of the edge. This can be checked by any burr large enough to be detected.

Raising one larger than needed means you'll waste steel grinding it off later. In fact, once you are at a comfortable level of experience, you may choose to intentionally avoid raising a burr. I do. I have knives I've sharpened at the same angles for 5-10 years. I can tell by audio feedback and the feel on the stones if I'm hitting the apex or not. I try to avoid raising burrs during touch-ups because it takes longer than not raising one. I only use them when setting an edge or reprofiling an edge to a new angle.

5. 800 grit stone should be fine for being able to detect the burr. Coarser stones make it easier to detect but 800 isn't so high that it'll make it impossible.

One last thing:

Don't get overly reliant on burrs. Just because you raise one doesn't mean you've established a clean bevel. One stroke that's at too obtuse of an angle and you've raised a good burr, even if your bevel isn't fully set. Assuming you aren't doing convexed edges or microbevels, the full width of the bevel, from apex to the shoulder transitioning into the primary grind, it should be a flat, clean surface.

very interesting
how do you sharpen without relying on burrs if you can expand on that it is very interesting

 

[Benuser]

Only possible with very well maintained knives and a lot of experience, and depending on the steel and the stone. The auditory and tactile feedback will indicate when the very edge has been reached. However, the preconditions don't seem fulfilled. In your case, the use of a permanent marker and a loupe are an alternative.

 

[Kawa]

Use the loupe under a source of light and look for that shiny flash on the edge, like @Benuser has in his avatar.
Then walk the knive from heel to tip.
A burr isnt the size of a microbevel, it's more like a hair thickness or even less. But when you have the light spot on the edge and turn the knight little by little, you can see it when the light spot is almost 'over' the edge.
You can also easily see this way if the edge is nice and straight. A few misspots can still give and very sharp edge, but if you were all over the place, back to the coarse stone.

 

[Bolt Thrower]

very interesting
how do you sharpen without relying on burrs if you can expand on that it is very interesting

like benuser said, it comes down to maintaining your knives well, and general experience.

for example I have a small pairing knife I sharpened at about 8 degrees per side, then applied a 15 degrees per side microbevel. lets say its dulled to the point I can roughly scrape off arm hairs.

through a combination of years of experience sharpening at that same angle, and knowing how sharpening at too acute of an angle gives a slicker feel like the knife is skating across the stone vs biting into it when I'm hitting the apex, I can tell by feel if my angle is good.

So I'll take a slightly dulled but still useable knife and touch it up quickly by feel on the line, and get it to cleanly shaving sharp.


minimizing burr formation is the key to a clean apex. whether you raise one or not, whether you polish up to 10,000 grit or use a rough 200 grit edge, the quality of your cutting edge comes down to minimizing the presence of a burr.

There are various schools of thought of how best to do this. Some rely on strops. Some cut into cork to try to remove the burr.

What I have found works best for me and my sharpening technique, is to finish my sharpening session with the absolute lightest stroke I can manage while still making full contact with the cutting edge.

for those familiar with the spyderco sharpmaker, to give some perspective, my final strokes on one are using a feather light touch to the point I don't have to secure the base in any way (left hand holding it down, a clamp, not even a wet towel under it) and it won't move. I'm using such light pressure I can take my left hand off the base.

Using a bench stone free hand the same concept applies. My last few strokes are using the lightest pressure I can, using less than the weight of the knife itself.

Doing that and alternating sides each stroke is how I finish every edge.

Another thing that helps once you've got the basics down, is learn to sharpen to shaving sharpness at a lower grit than you can today. Once you do that, repeat at a lower grit.

You may surprise yourself down the road. The first time I achieved a shaving sharp edge, it took a stone in the 1,200-1,500 grit range. Than I did it on 1,000 grit. Then 800. Then 500. 400. 300. Eventually I got to the point where I could make a 200 grit edge sharp enough to roughly shave, no stropping or refining of the edge.

Here is an image of a finely sharpened razor blade right out of the box VS my favorite pocket knife sharpened to a (roughly) shaving sharp 200 grit edge:

Despite the incredibly coarse finish I managed to refine the apex fairly well by using an extremely light touch.

Here's a few more 200x images of that edge. I really like coarse edges for utility knives, and rarely take any cutting tool past 800-1,000 grit these days aside from culinary knives.

and a quick video of it scraping away some arm hair - Vidsli - Simple video sharing

TLDR - Burrs are an invaluable tool for learning or ensuring your new bevel was properly set, but 90% of achieving the sharpest edge possible comes down to minimizing burr formation as best as possible.

 

[Bolt Thrower]

Use the loupe under a source of light and look for that shiny flash on the edge, like @Benuser has in his avatar.
Then walk the knive from heel to tip.
A burr isnt the size of a microbevel, it's more like a hair thickness or even less. But when you have the light spot on the edge and turn the knight little by little, you can see it when the light spot is almost 'over' the edge.
You can also easily see this way if the edge is nice and straight. A few misspots can still give and very sharp edge, but if you were all over the place, back to the coarse stone.

I agree with everything you wrote but what I bolded. Microbevels are about the same size as a burr, a hairs width. Hence the micro in their name. I've seen a lot of folks grind secondary bevels into their edge and call it a microbevel, so I wanted to point that out.

 

[r0bz]

TLDR - Burrs are an invaluable tool for learning or ensuring your new bevel was properly set, but 90% of achieving the sharpest edge possible comes down to minimizing burr formation as best as possible.

if that is the case then why every single how to sharpen video goes like this
1. set burr on one side
2. set burr on opposite side
3. deburr
.... ?

 

[Bolt Thrower]

if that is the case then why every single how to sharpen video goes like this
1. set burr on one side
2. set burr on opposite side
3. deburr
.... ?

because most people are not very good at sharpening and need to rely on a burr to determine whethet they're grinding the full edge or not.

It's counter productive on a well maintained knife once you reach a certain skill level. It's really only needed when reprofiling or establishing a new edge, not for touch-ups or simple sharpenings.

If I have a work knife sharp enough to cut but dull enough it isn't at peak performance, I'll touch it up. I'll use one light stroke then alternate to the other side, trying to actively avoid raising a burr. I can tell whether or not I have the right angle with visual inspection and feeling the edge for increased sharpness.

Raising a burr then eliminating it takes more time and can leave the apex weaker.

There is a lot of bad info on the internet when it comes to sharpening. I taught myself how to sharpen in the late 90's / early 2000's by using books and internet guides. I had to unlearn a lot of bad habits, like using too obtuse of an angle (most guides suggest 20 degrees per side which is thicker than I run my hatchets), relying on strops to deburr, and putting mirror edges on every cutting tool out there. Most cutting tools work better 10-15dps, you can deburr on stones, and coarse 100-600 grit edges have superior edge retention for many applications. But most guides won't tell you these things. I had to figure them out through trial and error over 25 years.

 

[Benuser]

if that is the case then why every single how to sharpen video goes like this
1. set burr on one side
2. set burr on opposite side
3. deburr
.... ?

One wants to make sure the bevels actually meet. Only once that concept is understood, you may aim for reducing an unnecessary big burr, and, under some special conditions, sharpen without raising one on purpose. As said before, that requires some experience — and sensitivity — and will work only with some steels and some stones. You're not there, yet.
Your problem was if I remember correctly in sharpening a soft stainless on a 800 stone. If you're unable to feel a burr exploring burr-less sharpening isn't the first remedy I would be looking for, as you won't notice the difference. I'm wondering why you prioritise side roads and erect obstacles instead of just learning sharpening with a simple carbon steel knife, a marker and a loupe. The basics are raising a burr, chasing it, and getting rid of it.

 

[Kawa]

If you can't feed a burr and you don't mind exposing your cheap stainless steel as a practising tool:
Increase the angle by a lot, to like 30 degree per side or so.
Use enough pressure on a coarse stone.
Sharpen like a few minutes on one side. I bet you can feel a difference with your fingers when checking the left and right side of the edge.

Thats your burr.

 

[Benuser]

It's counter productive on a well maintained knife once you reach a certain skill level.

This is not exactly the case, here.

 

[Bolt Thrower]

This is not exactly the case, here.

agreed, which is why I gave OP suggestions for creating and detecting burrs. Sorry if I sidetracked things a bit.

 

[r0bz]

ike using too obtuse of an angle (most guides suggest 20 degrees per side which is thicker than I run my hatchets),

(english not primary language) does too outbuse angle mean that you sharpen at a much lower angle than 20 degrees ? at what degree do you sharpen stainless knives comared to a higher rockwell knifes ?

It's counter productive on a well maintained knife once you reach a certain skill level. It's really only needed when reprofiling or establishing a new edge, not for touch-ups or simple sharpenings.

what does establishing a new edge mean ?
do you do your touchups with edge leading stropping motions ?
isnt at some point you need to establish a burr because the tuch ups dont return the knife to peak sharpness ?
how does stroping at edge leading when the knife is already sharp but you want to "touch it up" return the sharpenss? (by abrading the burr ?) ?

when would you want to establishing a new edge, ?

 

[mengwong]

Dude, you should really pick up something like this, you will get a lot of visibility and feedback. The questions that you are asking, you will be able to answer for yourself.

https://www.amazon.com/JARLINK-Illuminated-Jewelers-Magnifier-Foldable/dp/B078N34WZR

 

[Benuser]

Obtuse: the contrary of sharp. Far above what's needed. Here 20° per side when much lower would give a better result.
On Blue Belgian — 4k, not to be used with soft stainless — I can restore a fresh from the stones level of sharpness, provided it is done in time. Light edge leading strokes, followed by a few ones along the edge. Minimal burr formation. Due to the character of the abrasives the minimal burr is abraded without creating a new one as is common with synthetics. The very edge is only refreshed. If you don't do it in time, you have to abrade more steel: the steel is fatigued and the edge is rounded, apart from all kind of damages. This is when touching up makes little sense and a full sharpening is needed, beginning with re-establishing the geometry by thinning behind the edge with a coarse stone.
This information will hardly be helpful to the OP who is struggling with sharpening a soft stainless, a 800 stone and above all his own procrastination. There is no deburring method against that.

 

[r0bz]

Obtuse: the contrary of sharp. Far above what's needed. Here 20° per side when much lower would give a better result.
On Blue Belgian — 4k, not to be used with soft stainless — I can restore a fresh from the stones level of sharpness, provided it is done in time. Light edge leading strokes, followed by a few ones along the edge. Minimal burr formation. Due to the character of the abrasives the minimal burr is abraded without creating a new one as is common with synthetics. The very edge is only refreshed. If you don't do it in time, you have to abrade more steel: the steel is fatigued and the edge is rounded, apart from all kind of damages. This is when touching up makes little sense and a full sharpening is needed, beginning with re-establishing the geometry by thinning behind the edge with a coarse stone.
This information will hardly be helpful to the OP who is struggling with sharpening a soft stainless, a 800 stone and above all his own procrastination. There is no deburring method against that.

I have successfully sharpened the knife i can shave hairs with it ...... cuts tomatoes very nice .... i did not overrefine the edge which i used to do before and then the tomatoes cant be cut
i used to strop on the leather too much
it's just that my burr sensing game is not so good when my hands are wet ......

 

[Bolt Thrower]

I never even thought about that. I use my stones dry. I have a lot harder of a time feeling a burr with wet hands too.

 

[r0bz]

I never even thought about that. I use my stones dry. I have a lot harder of a time feeling a burr with wet hands too.

what kind of stones are they that you can use em dry ?

 

[Benuser]

Expect waterstones to get glazed and loaded when used dry. The idea of waterstones is to deliver permanently fresh abrasives of the original grit. If used dry, the particles will rapidly refine. Have often used a Chosera 2k dry to refresh carbon edges. End result not 3k as when used wet, but in the 6k-range.
No good idea with soft stainless, as it doesn't hold any polished edge. Another side road that won't help you.

 

[mengwong]

Dhrystones

 

[r0bz]

Expect waterstones to get glazed and loaded when used dry. The idea of waterstones is to deliver permanently fresh abrasives of the original grit. If used dry, the particles will rapidly refine. Have often used a Chosera 2k dry to refresh carbon edges. End result not 3k as when used wet, but in the 6k-range.
No good idea with soft stainless, as it doesn't hold any polished edge. Another side road that won't help you.

i am not planning to use the whetstones dry...
that is stupid