question about troubles when raising burr

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r0bz

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i have a few questions about raising burr
1. what are the reasons behind being unable to raise a burr?
2. why is it easier for me to raise a burr on one side than the other?
3. why is it hard for me to feel the burr ?
4. how do I know if I established a big enough of a burr ? sometimes I can feel something but is it good enough
5.I am only using a sun tiger 800# stone maybe I am not getting burrs because the stone is too high of grit to start with?
 
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Infrared

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1. There are two main factors in raising a burr, the sharpening angle and edge thickness. For example, if you sharpen a Wusthof at a five degree angle, it will probably take over 20 minutes to get a burr. Raise the angle to 40 degrees and you'll raise one in a minute or two.

On the other hand, a very thin knife like a Takamura will only take a few minutes at the five degree angle.

2. The simple answer is because the second side takes less work. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

3. Assuming you actually are raising one, try using you index and middle finger to feel for one. They are generally more sensitive than the thumb.

If you still can't feel one, keep grinding and pay attention to the bevel and make sure it's nice and even.

If you still can't feel one, try raising the angle very high (like 30 or 40 degrees) and see if you can feel one after a minute or two.

4. As long as the burr and bevel are even, it should be ok. And there's nothing wrong with making it a little bigger (although it might be hard to deburr).
 

Kawa

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#2 might also be that you don't put pressure on the right place while doing your 'weaker' side.
You might be hitting the shoulders with more pressure then the very edge.
The niext time you start a knife, try focussing on pressure more towards the edge, putting more pressure 'into'(downwards) the stone. See if it helps. Im not saying more pressure overal, but to change the pressurepoints.

You might be able to see a larger (wider) edge on the side you dont get a burr on, but I dont think that is a law, since you might compensate that by sharpening your 'better' side for a longer time. That way both bevel remain equal.
 

r0bz

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#2 might also be that you don't put pressure on the right place while doing your 'weaker' side.
You might be hitting the shoulders with more pressure then the very edge.
The niext time you start a knife, try focussing on pressure more towards the edge, putting more pressure 'into'(downwards) the stone. See if it helps. Im not saying more pressure overal, but to change the pressurepoints.

You might be able to see a larger (wider) edge on the side you dont get a burr on, but I dont think that is a law, since you might compensate that by sharpening your 'better' side for a longer time. That way both bevel remain equal.
On this side I get a burr easily

this side I have hard time getting burr


I think you are right I sharpen my "weak side" at a lower angle than my "strong side"
when applying pressure you mean applying pressure closer to the edge?
 

r0bz

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if my stone isn't completely flat will raising burr be impossible or difficult?
 

r0bz

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Use a sharpie and a loupe to find out whether you've reached the very edge. If you're abrading behind the edge there's no burr to be expected — the bevels don't meet yet.
if its behind the edge then I must increase my sharpening angle yes ?
 

Kawa

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On this side I get a burr easily

this side I have hard time getting burr


I think you are right I sharpen my "weak side" at a lower angle than my "strong side"
when applying pressure you mean applying pressure closer to the edge?


Yes, but also check how you put your pressure. I can have my fingertips as close to the edge as possible, if the direction I put pressure towards to is not enough downwards (into the stone), but 'away from the edge'/towards the spine, you will still dont raise a good burr. You will probably round the shoulder or convex the bevel.
Its not only about the amount of pressure, or the pressurepoints on itself, the direction is also important.
 

r0bz

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i don't remember what video it was or who said to do that but I apply pressure with only the hand that is not holding the knife (the hand that is holding the knife the only thing I do with it controls the angle but I do not apply pressure with it only at the heel section)
is it okay?
 

Kawa

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That should be correct.
Just don't translate that into 'the holding hand should be like a loose elastic'. You need to lock it, so you can keep your edge flat on the stone and in the same angle.
If the holding hand is too loose, you will be very wobbly.

I think a nice tip for you is (I watched the movies, so the edge-away side is your hard side): with your holding hand, try to put some pressure 'as if you close the gas throttle of a motor cycle'. Dont raise the angle that way, just feel the pressure balance towards the very edge that way. That way you compensate for hitting the shoulder too much instead of the edge.
Might feel unnatural in the beginning, but you get used to it. It helps you grind the very edge instead of going to flat
 

Pie

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if my stone isn't completely flat will raising burr be impossible or difficult?
Not impossible, but when you’re starting out a dished stone has a good chance of messing with you. Say for example you’re on the backside (difficult?) side of the knife, and the knife edge is perpendicular (across) the stone - you may only make contact on the high spots of the stone, which may severely screw with what you’re trying to do.

When starting out, keeping them flat is a good idea unless you know how dished your stone is, and how to manage where you’re grinding.

Good luck! 👍
 

Benuser

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if its behind the edge then I must increase my sharpening angle yes ?
No.
If the bevel has been rounded by poor stropping or there's a microbevel, you better go on until the very edge has been reached.
If the blade is the same soft stainless one we have been speaking about before you better first get rid of the actual edge before setting a bevel. Have the blade flat on a relatively coarse stone — I would take a 320 or so — and go on until the bevel is entirely gone. Again, check with a marker and a loupe. Soft stainless tend to be highly abrasion resistant so doing this with a 800 makes no sense. It will take forever and with the time, errors are more likely to occur. Removing the original edge will get you fresh steel that's more likely to hold. Once the original edge removed making a new one will only require a few strokes.
About your burr problem: first get the coarse stone flat. If the dishing is visible with a naked eye it has come much too far. And remember: burrs aren't always a reliable criteria. They may occur before the very edge has been reached. With some steels, like Global's Cromova, they are hard to raise and hard to get rid of. And if you believe you're done, a new one will pop up after a while in an unexpected place.
I don't know whether it's your case, but poor steel with clustering carbides is likely to behave unexpectedly. Sharpening it on stones is a nightmare. Send it out. Where I live a decent sharpening will cost about €7. From then on you may try to maintain it yourself on a flat medium-coarse stone.
Better start your sharpening journey with a simple, inexpensive, thin carbon steel blade to get the basics: raising a burr, chasing it, getting rid of it.
 
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r0bz

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Using pessure on the edge leading stroke raises less burr than pressure on the edge trailing stroke. Mud reduces burrs. This way edges can be ground without noticeable burrs.
my stone is a sun tiger 800# it produces a lot of stone mud and I saw korin knifes sharpener saying to leave the mud on the stone...
i put pressure only on the edge trailing strokes when trying to raise the burr

Do you mean if I sharpen with the mud I won't be able to feel a burr or get it?
 

Benuser

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what is that exactly ?
Carbides are hard particles, in a soft environment. Their volume and sometimes grouping together has to do with the heat treatment and with the steel composition. In the case of Cromova makers were obviously looking for a soft steel with a lot of bite — what the general public will feel as 'sharp'. In other cases it is caused by poor control over the steel's composition as it was quite common with early Chinese knives on the European market. Expect chipping even when being soft, edge instability and very difficult stone sharpening. All reasons to have them sharpened with powered tools.
 

natto

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Do you mean if I sharpen with the mud I won't be able to feel a burr or get it?
I like to debug problems step by step. What about painting the edge and let it dry. A few strokes, on either side will show where material is removed. A clean stone with enough water is needed. Mud removes paint all over the place.



I saw korin knifes sharpener saying to leave the mud on the stone...
Mud and pressure speed up material removal, thats fine. A clean stone with less pressure is more precise.
 

Pie

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Mud consists of abrasive particles, water and bits of metal. It helps with abrading material (such as burrs) along with the fresh exposed abrasive attached to the stone. The mythical “3 body abrasion”.

Idk, this is almost besides the point/too much info if you’re still looking for your burr. Mud or not, your stone should be able to remove enough material to create a burr as well as remove it.

If you’re not getting the burr, or inconsistently, the sharpie on the edge will help a lot. Make sure to check after each stroke and remember which angle hits the whole bevel.

Tbh the whole thing is only as complicated as you want to make it out to be. The actual idea and concept of sharpening is very simple, but the execution is the tough part. Try not to get hung up on the details until the basics are solid. Keep at it my friend!
 
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When I started out sharpening I felt like I couldn’t raise a burr. I watched videos (some from Ryky 🤫) and each person in the video is flying thru the sharpening process, like 10 strokes in a few seconds fast. So I thought I had to do it as well. I think that tripped me up. Once I slowed down and focused on precision strokes, constant checking for feedback on angle consistency I got much better. Going fast ended up taking me longer to achieve the intended outcome. The saying “slow is smooth and smooth is fast” definitely applies to sharpening, at least at the beginning
 

Delat

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Raising that first burr was also a mystery for me, but it turned out I was trying to do it on a stone that was both dished and loaded and much finer than I thought (I was using an old stone and had no clue what I was doing). When I tried with a fresh, flat coarse stone the burr popped up pretty quickly ( I bought an SG500 and Atoma 140).

So for me, throwing money at the problem bridged the gap caused by my lack of experience. You don’t have to do what I did, but make sure your stone is flat and the surface is clean and not loaded. I think you’ve gotten advice on how to do that on other threads already.

Ideally you want to do want @Benuser said and get a fresh clean bevel… but when you’re a complete novice looking for feedback (a burr) that can be both tricky and frustrating if it takes a while. If your knife is just a tester and you want the feedback and satisfaction of raising a burr without getting super frustrated, then sure go ahead and raise the angle. Just realize it might not be a useful long term edge and you’ll eventually have to cut a fresh, real bevel.
 

r0bz

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Mud consists of abrasive particles, water and bits of metal. It helps with abrading material (such as burrs) along with the fresh exposed abrasive attached to the stone. The mythical “3 body abrasion”.

Idk, this is almost besides the point/too much info if you’re still looking for your burr. Mud or not, your stone should be able to remove enough material to create a burr as well as remove it.
I was able to create a burr on my "strong side" of the sharpening at 3 passes pretty fast but this was when the stone was not muddy (I started the sharpening at the strong side) but when I switched sides to the "weak side" the stone was muddy and I wasn't very successful at creating a consistent burr I could feel at some parts of the blade but not on the whole length
does this having hard time raising the burr on that side have to do something with the mud ?
 

Pie

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More likely consistency and pressure, although I have no way of knowing for sure. You can cheat by using your thumb as an angle guide with the non-knife hand. It works pretty well but try not to abrade your thumb.
 

r0bz

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is the q tip method he shows reliable identifying a burr ?
should I try it
 
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