Richard Blaine's Vid - Cutting Edge vs Slicing Edge

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Culverin

Culverin

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He talks about it at timestamp 12:00.

[video=youtube;Teh0Cw84QGQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Teh0Cw84QGQ[/video]

What's the difference between a cutting edge vs slicing edge?

I'm going to presume a slicing edge is for longer cuts?
Is this because the micro serrations are smaller are require more blade length?

I thought the primary factor dictating cutting performance was the edge angle?
 
Sorry, not hanging on for 12 min for a guy who is trying to impress viewers by swinging a steel. Perhaps better suited for the YouTube Bozo thread. (I didn't type that my computer did....)

He's probably talking about difference between a push cut and a draw or pull cut with a slicer. Curious that he may not know that :scratchhead: To your question, the push cut will usually have an edge polished to 3 - 6K. It does not need more and some tooth is good for the task. A slicer, suji or yani, will usually be polished to 6K and up, esp the yani, to get a long clean slice.
 
First, understand that the techniques discussed in the video for the use of a grooved or smooth steel do not apply to Japanese or higher Rockwell hardness knives. He alludes to this, but never states it outright. The edges of higher Rockwell hardness blades do not roll, and therefore cannot be realigned.

He gets some things right, others wrong. For example, he correctly advises against using a steel on a Japanese knife (but for the wrong reason), yet he talks about realigning an edge using a grooved steel rather than a smooth steel. A grooved steel will not realign a rolled edge, but will remove the rolled edge, replacing it with large microserrations. Yes, the knife will cut better, but this is because of these microserrations. The actual cutting edge that was there has been destroyed, replaced by this sawtooth edge that is inferior to the original edge.

At least his steeling technique is good, stressing holding a proper angle and using minimal pressure.

From what I can gather, his distinction between a cutting edge and a slicing edge has to do with the absence or presence of these microserrations, with the slicing edge having them. This allows the skin of a tomato to be grabbed by the microserrations. In the world of Japanese knives, this is best accomplished by using a 3K to 5K grit waterstone for your final edge rather than taking the edge to 8k or higher. In a later video, Mr Blaine suggests that stropping is the difference between a slicing edge or a cutting edge, but it's a little more involved than that.

Rick
 
Well said Rick!!!

:goodpost::plus1::plus1::plus1::plus1::plus1::plus1::plus1::plus1::plus1::plus1::plus1:
 
That guy has videos featured in Knucklehead's topic. Should give you an idea.

You cannot get steel perfectly sharp - two planes that meet together at a single atom's width. You always have microserations. But by applying higher polish you can get them so small that it approximates sharpness in everyday life -lets call this a polished edge. If you leave them bigger - you have toothy, grabby edge. Depending on what you cut and the knife sharpener's skill you may favor one or the other. Although in theory polished enough edge should be able to outperform a toothy edge even in tough skin breaking - I am not there yet to be able to achieve it.

The more i dig into the science about what makes steel steel - I am coming to conclusion that once you have plastic deformation on the edge it is "game over man, game over" situation and you are better touching the knife with stones
 
Thank you guys so much for shedding some light on this.

What vids should I watch if I want to understand more about a blade's edge.
Perhaps there is something out there with a very clinical and scientific approach?

I've been pouring over the info from Z Knives, can't get enough of it :)
 
Culverin said:
Thank you guys so much for shedding some light on this.

What vids should I watch if I want to understand more about a blade's edge.
Perhaps there is something out there with a very clinical and scientific approach?

I've been pouring over the info from Z Knives, can't get enough of it :)
Click to expand...

If you love edge porn under huge magnification Cliff Stamp is your guy. Although he and his cohort are not interested in kitchen cutlery so much, they get the science right. Usually.

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?7,19265 - the pictures in the third post are typical. He is somewhat controversial figure in the knife world for reasons unknown.

Zknives is maintained by our forum member Gator. His site is guilty for me being here (and desperately wanting akifusa) but that is another thing.
 
I think this is a very tricky topic.

Catering colleges in the UK teach people that "the knife man" sharpens knives (this being a guy who turns up in a van outside your kitchen and runs knives through a grinder. This is guaranteed to wreck J knives in double quick time.) and you, the cook, keep them sharp by using a steel. Everyone who goes into a butcher's shop sees the butcher steeling knives, so they know it must be true that what you need is a steel. As most people seem to buy sets of knives, the idea is reinforced by the fact that many knife sets include a steel (or maybe a ceramic rod).

There is a lot to be said for at least teaching people how to use a steel correctly, so it won't do much harm. In Europe and the US I wouldn't mind betting that hardly anyone uses hard steel or carbon knives anyway (where the blade is harder than that of a steel). The vast majority of people are not interested in learning how to sharpen properly on stones, so there is surely a place for techniques that will suit most people.

My extended family is well aware that I have a longstanding obsession with high quality kit in the kitchen, including knives that no one else is allowed to touch. They are perfectly happy with decent knives by German brands, and I have bought most of the family good quality electric sharpeners, because at least that way they are not working with dull knives. My brother is an engineer and understands steel, but can't be bothered to sharpen properly. I have shown them that the best place for most steels is the bin, but of they really must use one a ceramic honing rod or smooth steel is OK.

My father in law (German) has a ritual of "sharpening" his carving knife as part of the weekend dinner ceremony. Recently I showed him that his massive and ancient German butcher's steel (which is ridged, not smooth) was not in fact improving the edge, but making it worse. (It would not cut paper at any time, you would have a job to get it through joint of beef without sawing at it, in fact you would struggle to get it through a cabbage). So we thinned it and sharpened it on a stone and put the steel in the drawer. I am reliably informed that his habit is still alive and well when I am not there though!
 
DO NOT do the finger nail test he did. That just made me cringe. Very dangerous what he did.

Also he had a MAC professional series santoku, all mac knives use AUS 8 steel. Not a Rockwell hardness of 59 or 60 something he said. AUS 8 is quite soft compared to your other higher grade steels.


As most said, he got something's right and others wrong.

Don't even bother with sterling rods unless your butchering a lot of meat. Stick to whetstones.
 
I also ran into this guy's videos before I ended up here at KKF. Must be Google's algorithms at work for you...
(and I was also left with more questions than answers after seeing his vid's).

The OP asked for videos and since no one has pointed her in the obvious direction yet, let me be the one... Jon Broida at Japanese Knife Imports has a good set of instructional videos on youtube hat are often recommended and that are working fine for me. I have limited experience and skills but his videos have definitely helped me progress, and have also given me some confidence by providing a consistent system/process so that I finally got some idea about what I am doing.
 
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Thanks guys.
Jon's name keeps popping up. I'll go look for his videos.

If there's any other science-based stuff, let me know.
I just devour info like that.
 
Try this Web site:

Edit: Nah. Website is subjective and provides no information on ownership or author.
 
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:biggrin: He did get some things right angle and light pressure. Talking about getting the right steel for high Hrt. knives and slicing action is based on western tradition.

Some of the ultimate slicers like a Yanagiba never see the likes of any steel or ceramic (hopefully). Freehand skills on a polishing stone put the razor edges on Japanese single bevels.

I found through trial & error that steeling my Japanese carbons at work smooth steel or ceramic lite measured pressure just a few strokes.

Now largely because of some forum chefs here have preferred the use of slash & go touch up stones as the way to go. 3-5k for hard steel gyuto's. Single bevels 5-8K for touchups.
 
osakajoe said:
DO NOT do the finger nail test he did. That just made me cringe. Very dangerous what he did.

Also he had a MAC professional series santoku, all mac knives use AUS 8 steel. Not a Rockwell hardness of 59 or 60 something he said. AUS 8 is quite soft compared to your other higher grade steels.


As most said, he got something's right and others wrong.

Don't even bother with sterling rods unless your butchering a lot of meat. Stick to whetstones.
Click to expand...

is this reliable information? I was always under the impression that mac used takefu vg-2. Not sure why. My mac is totally unlike any other aus8 knives I own so I am not so sure? sorry to go far offtopic
 
spoiledbroth said:
is this reliable information? I was always under the impression that mac used takefu vg-2. Not sure why. My mac is totally unlike any other aus8 knives I own so I am not so sure? sorry to go far offtopic
Click to expand...

Yes, very reliable. I live and work in osaka in the knife business. It's my job to know. I also know a lot of the guys in there main office in osaka.

Don't be fooled by anyone telling you they use something else but AUS 8. But yes mac knives are well made.
 
interesting thank you very much sir! and yes they are a fine knife definitely one of my favourite cutters. :)
 
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