Sexual Harassment in the Kitchen/Restaurant world

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Bill13 said:
I read an article a couple of weeks ago (that I now can not find) about a chef being harassed by another chef. After a couple "I'm not interested" didn't seem to work the next time they were in the walk-in for inventory and he tried to make a move she stabbed him with a fork in the thigh. She said he screamed in pain, cursed at her, left the walk in, and never bothered her again.
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It worked that time.

How many times has it turned into fired, arrested, and convicted of assault? Few enough you'd be willing to risk it? In a culture that stereotypes, even institutionalizes, the "lying b*tch", what should a woman assume her odds are in a "he-said" / "she-said" situation? Now, what are the odds in a "he has physical evidence" / "she-said"? You don't need much imagination to figure out several stories starting with, "I just ask her out and she....", all ending with plausible deniability and another perp off the hook, with a victim shamed or punished. How many times would you need to see that story play out before you concluded it was a hopeless lose-lose situation and sucked it up and endured as a least of all evils solution?


panda said:
if the guility animal is top of the food chain, then simply go work somewhere else. why would one want to stick around in that environment, no one is forcing them to stay.
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Not possible, if you need to earn a living, in an environment when odds are the same things go on at 7 or 8 of each 10 alternatives, assuming there are any alternatives. How often does a "trouble maker" get branded and black-balled? (Sometimes for legitimate reasons, but often not.) What are your options then? Change fields?

I'd guess the initial few brave souls to come forward where not only fed up, but in a personally secure situation that provided a safe landing zone / escape plan. If your situation requires this paycheck to make rent or buy your next meal, (or you kid's next meal!), it is hard to be brave and risk losing that even if you're doing the right thing in an abstract sense!
 
JDA_NC said:
You've never felt pressured to stay in a kitchen/restaurant that you didn't enjoy working at?
You've never felt pressured to stay in a kitchen/restaurant that you didn't enjoy working at?
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no, then again i am different animal from most.. i've never bought into the 'this is good for my resume' motivator.
i dont deal well with cryers, i either make them cry even more or most often just send them home. if one cant deal, they chose the wrong career, you have to be pretty insane to deal with this sh*t every day and not lose it. i dont trust anybody that seems normal in this life, haha.

but i absolutely agree toxic behavior needs to be neutralized. i just think there are better ways to go about it than social media. dock pay for every credible(witnesss) infraction, i bet you that will cut the instances in half!
 
malexthekid said:
I love that to you sexual assault and rape is a leftist liberal issue to create a "quasi-social movement with catchy hashtags"...

I take it you don't have children (or daughters to be particular).
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Thank goodness I do not. The last thing the world needs is more humans.

Now to explain my post

I'm just saying why is this hitting fan just now if it's been such a huge issue for so long? One would think that if it was THAT bad, this would have happened eons ago.

I understand there's some truly gross and culpable people (mostly but not exclusively men) who rightfully deserve to be roasted for their ****** behavior.

What I have no respect for are the plethora of other "victims" who've come come out of the woodwork sometimes decades after the fact to try and get a piece of this hot action with either fabricated or over-exagerated claims and thereby diluting the real, and actually brutal claims of other women who've had more than a few mean words uttered at them.

Case in point is a lovely but obviously mentally lacking member of Parliament here in Canada who waited since the beginning of last summer in order to issue a statement regarding a "traumatic" and "scarring" event whereby she took a photo with two other members of Parliament, one of them a male (and all 3 from rival parties) where the man in question quipped "well this isnt my idea of a threesome".

Now, bad joke, bad taste. But sacrring and traumatic? Absolutely not.

I don't understand nor respect any and all women who throw around such accusations because it demeans and dilutes the claims of victims of actual abuse.

I'm all for women going on with this proverbial witch hunt, because there are some real witches out there, but when I see people like Monica Lewinsky saying #MeToo I lose some support for this "movement"
 
Yet-Another-Dave said:
It worked that time.

How many times has it turned into fired, arrested, and convicted of assault? Few enough you'd be willing to risk it? In a culture that stereotypes, even institutionalizes, the "lying b*tch", what should a woman assume her odds are in a "he-said" / "she-said" situation? Now, what are the odds in a "he has physical evidence" / "she-said"? You don't need much imagination to figure out several stories starting with, "I just ask her out and she....", all ending with plausible deniability and another perp off the hook, with a victim shamed or punished. How many times would you need to see that story play out before you concluded it was a hopeless lose-lose situation and sucked it up and endured as a least of all evils solution?




Not possible, if you need to earn a living, in an environment when odds are the same things go on at 7 or 8 of each 10 alternatives, assuming there are any alternatives. How often does a "trouble maker" get branded and black-balled? (Sometimes for legitimate reasons, but often not.) What are your options then? Change fields?

I'd guess the initial few brave souls to come forward where not only fed up, but in a personally secure situation that provided a safe landing zone / escape plan. If your situation requires this paycheck to make rent or buy your next meal, (or you kid's next meal!), it is hard to be brave and risk losing that even if you're doing the right thing in an abstract sense!
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Exactly... look at how long it took for the weinstein rubbish to gain mass momentum... and that was against some reasonably well off and successful woman..

Now imagine you are on minimum wage supporting a kid by yourself and having to pay rent.... you think you gonna risk your job to come forward or just "suck it up".
 
panda said:
no, then again i am different animal from most.. i've never bought into the 'this is good for my resume' motivator.
i dont deal well with cryers, i either make them cry even more or most often just send them home. if one cant deal, they chose the wrong career, you have to be pretty insane to deal with this sh*t every day and not lose it. i dont trust anybody that seems normal in this life, haha.
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Normal people don't make it, you need to be fundamentally flawed as an individual. On this note, I do not condone sexual assault in or out of the kitchen, I had a creepy chef who used to be handsy, I dealt with it, but didn't respect him because of it.
 
malexthekid said:
I love that to you sexual assault and rape is a leftist liberal issue
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It's an issue that covers the entire spectrum...I'm just deeply enjoying that at the moment it's mostly liberals vs liberals eating each other over it all.
 
StonedEdge said:
It's an issue that covers the entire spectrum...I'm just deeply enjoying that at the moment it's mostly liberals vs liberals eating each other over it all.
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And yet you don't find that to be a bigger issue that one side appears to be quite happy with the status quo?

Afterall you say it as an issue that should be apolitical... yet you have two totally different responses.
 
malexthekid said:
And yet you don't find that to be a bigger issue that one side appears to be quite happy with the status quo?

Afterall you say it as an issue that should be apolitical... yet you have two totally different responses.
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Think of my original response as the Coles notes version, and my subsequent responses as the wiki. But most of all, don't read too deeply into my responses.
 
StonedEdge said:
Think of my original response as the Coles notes version, and my subsequent responses as the wiki. But most of all, don't read too deeply into my responses.
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One should never take off topic hobby forum responses too seriously... some topics make it a tad difficult.
 
It’s been an open secret for years that the Besh restaurant group is not a healthy environment to work in. Odds are we probably have some members here that can elaborate. The company has quite the history of not treating their employees well, the patterns of sexual harassment is just one faucet.
Mario also has a history of being a real POS to work with. He lost a class action lawsuit a few years ago for taking a percentage of tips from his FOH staff. Even his one time sous (the blonde woman) has also faced sexual harassment suits.
I reject the notion that this is some sort of industry wide problem, as my 20 years of experience has taught me so. Laws, media and public pressure are in place to combat this issue.
Let’s keep politics out of this, it’s a problem that should offend everyone.
 
panda said:
if the guility animal is top of the food chain, then simply go work somewhere else. why would one want to stick around in that environment, no one is forcing them to stay.
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Dude! I love your critical thoughts on knives. On treatment of women, come on. Simply work somewhere else and risk experiencing the same? I love the empowerment of women, but it needs help on occasions like these. We can all do better, men and women.
 
panda said:
no, then again i am different animal from most.. i've never bought into the 'this is good for my resume' motivator.
i dont deal well with cryers, i either make them cry even more or most often just send them home. if one cant deal, they chose the wrong career, you have to be pretty insane to deal with this sh*t every day and not lose it. i dont trust anybody that seems normal in this life, haha.

but i absolutely agree toxic behavior needs to be neutralized. i just think there are better ways to go about it than social media. dock pay for every credible(witnesss) infraction, i bet you that will cut the instances in half!
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Being unique and different is cool but it doesn't discount or discredit the feelings of the majority of people who feel differently. I know I've been in plenty of situations where I felt I needed to stick it out because of my resume - and talking to most cooks I've known, most feel the same way too.

I also have lived in a good mix of States, cities, and markets and I think as part of that, I also don't subscribe to the idea that you should do certain career moves because "it's the right thing to do" and that it's the end all be all for you and your career/resume. If I feel a situation is toxic, then I will, and think you should, move on. Life goes on.

But it's a still a small pond.

I know I've met one member of this forum working in a kitchen (good dude, doesn't post much, and him and I have both moved on to other places as far as I still know). I also know that I've worked in a couple restaurants that other posters here have or still do work at. At different time periods but still the same places and a lot of the same people.

I can understand why people are hesisitant to blow the whistle or kick up dirt on others.
 
I don't see this as a political issue. There are douche bags on both sides of the aisle.
With that being said, I can't disagree with most of the previous posts. My thoughts are all over the place.
In my experience it's been more of an issue in the front of the house.
 
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I don't mind empowering women and eliminating sexual harrassment in the workplace if it leads to the legalization of prostitution and removes the shame of the local strip club. A man has to get his gratification somewhere right?
 
Pro tip: It ain't shameful if you don't let it be

Those dancers gotta pay for college (or a new Audi)
 
Now I want to find a lawer and ask if it would be sexual harrassment to ask a bunch of coworkers both male and female if they would like to meet up at a Titty Bar after work?
 
Chef Doom said:
Now I want to find a lawer and ask if it would be sexual harrassment to ask a bunch of coworkers both male and female if they would like to meet up at a Titty Bar after work?
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My brother works in a welding shop....they had their company x mas party at a strip club, ladies included.
 
I get that some of the last few posts are probably 'just a bit of fun'. The problem is that the jerks who do the harassing see this as people openly disrespecting women and they take it as tacit approval of their harassing behaviour. Disrespect enables bullying and harassment.

I'm not saying don't talk about sexual topics or gender differences, but you can do it in a more respectful way.
 
Chef Doom said:
Now I want to find a lawer and ask if it would be sexual harrassment to ask a bunch of coworkers both male and female if they would like to meet up at a Titty Bar after work?
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As you no doubt well know, it's fine to talk to a woman about sex or titty bars or whatever else. As long as the conversation is OK with her. But if she asks you to stop talking about it or gives signals that she's uncomfortable talking about it with you, then you need to stop.

I suspect that you will be much more likely to get her consent for this sort of conversation if you use a more respectful tone.

Harrassment is not really about sex, it's about demonstrating ones power over someone (who by definition they do not respect) by doing things to them that they don't consent to.
 
Or speaking about women in a way that objectified them as sexual objects who only exist for gratification. It's really about trying to make someone feel like less, apparently because that's the only way some can feel better about themselves.

But I don't really take seriously anyone who is so limited in their world view they have to consistently resort to attempts to demean others in order to make a point.

Just saying....
 
I can only say: It is ABSOLUTELY correct and GREAT that these cases all come out now and that these a-holes are exposed and shamed. Why? Yes, because it is rampant. It was. And it shouldn't be in the year 2017.

Everyone who makes comments like "go work somewhere else" or "deal with it in private" ... or worse, who makes it a liberal thing ... come on folks, this isn't about right or left, this is about what is right (no pun intended), it's about human decency. Because the offenders are neither only liberal nor only conservatives. They are only male, that's all!

If it could've been handled privately, great. But no, wait ... you know why I think it is f***ing great that these cases are all being discussed so publicly right now? Because it finally send a message to would be and wanna be offenders: You might think you can get away with this, but think twice. Because this is what happens to you if your victims don't shut up like you want them to ...
 
Sorry to burst your bubble alterwiser but harassing ******** are not only male.
 
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