Sharpening Stainless (vs. Carbon)?

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Oh man, I hate sharpening SG2. Sometimes I think it's sharp, but then there's just an invisible foil or wire edge and as soon as I start using it, that foil edge begins to microchip away, giving me very very slight hicups in my knife cutting performance, which really sucks.

Usually sharpen naniwa pro 400 / 1k / 3k / Belgian blue. Followed by a bare leather strop.

I just put some 0.5 micron diamond paste on my leather strop. Maybe that will help. Will also try a little more edge leading strokes on my finishing stone.
 
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Emieloss said:
Oh man, I hate sharpening SG2. Sometimes I think it's sharp, but then there's just an invisible foil or wire edge and as soon as I start using it, that foil edge begins to microchip away, giving me very very slight hicups in my knife cutting performance, which really sucks.

Usually sharpen naniwa pro 400 / 1k / 3k / Belgian blue. Followed by a bare leather strop.

I just put some 0.5 micron diamond paste on my leather strop. Maybe that will help. Will also try a little more edge leading strokes.
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What brand of diamond paste are you using?
I’m not loving my spray bottle as it leaks everywhere and was looking for something a bit more viscous.
 
NameAlreadyTaken said:
What brand of diamond paste are you using?
I’m not loving my spray bottle as it leaks everywhere and was looking for something a bit more viscous.
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Shuangxin 0.5 micron diamond paste on oil basis. Not a big fan of it, should shop for something different. It gets sticky and is hard to clean of the blades edge after usage.
 
Emieloss said:
Oh man, I hate sharpening SG2. Sometimes I think it's sharp, but then there's just an invisible foil or wire edge and as soon as I start using it, that foil edge begins to microchip away, giving me very very slight hicups in my knife cutting performance, which really sucks.

Usually sharpen naniwa pro 400 / 1k / 3k / Belgian blue. Followed by a bare leather strop.

I just put some 0.5 micron diamond paste on my leather strop. Maybe that will help. Will also try a little more edge leading strokes on my finishing stone.
Click to expand...
Deburring SG2 isn't easy. A few suggestions. Deburr with every stone in the progression. Deburring with the first stone will take a lot of time. Skip any edge trailing when deburring. It does for sure abrade the burr but raises a new one as well. The art is in limiting the contact so that only the burr gets abraded. More, longer contact with more pressure raises a new one. Decrease pressure. The last edge leading strokes should be feather light.
As said, deburring with the first stone takes a lot of time. Go only to the next stone when the burr — with the lightest edge leading strokes — only flips without getting any smaller. Do so with all following stones. After the 3k nothing should be left — and certainly not after the Belgian Blue. Have a light touch with these fine stones.
 
Benuser said:
Deburring SG2 isn't easy. A few suggestions. Deburr with every stone in the progression. Deburring with the first stone will take a lot of time. Skip any edge trailing when deburring. It does for sure abrade the burr but raises a new one as well. The art is in limiting the contact so that only the burr gets abraded. More, longer contact with more pressure raises a new one. Decrease pressure. The last edge leading strokes should be feather light.
As said, deburring with the first stone takes a lot of time. Go only to the next stone when the burr — with the lightest edge leading strokes — only flips without getting any smaller. Do so with all following stones. After the 3k nothing should be left — and certainly not after the Belgian Blue. Have a light touch with these fine stones.
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P.S. A foil or wire edge is an accumulation of debris on top of the old edge. It supposes the very edge hasn't yet been reached. Very common when continually flipping sides or the use of a jig system. Better first sharpen one side with a given stone and make sure to have a clean bevel, up to the very edge before going to the other side. I mean by a clean bevel: no black line on top from the abraded steel. Check with a (red permanent) marker and magnifier instead of relying on the burr only. A burr may appear long before the very edge got reached.
A last remark. The work with the first stone is crucial. What goes wrong cannot be restored with finer stones. With a new knife, or when thinning took place, or different angles applied, or you have used a lot of pressure, don't expect at once a stable edge — especially not with this kind of steel. We often go to early to the next stone. Better put it away, and have a look at it the next day to end and deburr with the same first stone. It will go much easier. Better for you, and better for the edge.
 
P.P.S. Don't take the angles too low. It's no Shirogami. You will find reports of very low angles with SG-2, but the edge will be unnecessary unstable. You may keep the area behind the edge as thin as you may like, apply convex or straight bevels, but please: don't go below 30° inclusive.
 
Benuser said:
P.P.S. Don't take the angles too low. It's no Shirogami. You will find reports of very low angles with SG-2, but the edge will be unnecessary unstable. You may keep the area behind the edge as thin as you may like, apply convex or straight bevels, but please: don't go below 30° inclusive.
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I never measured my sharpening angle, but it might be somewhere between 12 to 15 degrees. Could try and up it a bit.
 
KAMON Knives said:
I can only tell from what I see on knives that I see from customers, but those edges get significantly thicker.
Also I know how long it takes me to set an edge on a shapton pro 5k on a knife ground to zero and it's not really long. So stones just wear a lot quicker in comparison to the honing rod would be my assertion.
A Belgian blue is somewhat similar to the shapton I quoted I'd say. I know the Belgian blue, but don't know for certain which grit it compares to best on the Japanese water stone scale. Maybe someone knows and can elaborate on that.



The 1.2519 I use is heat treated by me to 65hrc and my Apex ultra to 67hrc. Both work great with the micro honing rod from F. Dick.. Works great on stainless steels like 14c28n as well.
It doesn't work on high alloy tool steels like m390 or magnacut though. And they don't even need to be as hard for it to not work very well or not at all. That's due to the high carbide volume of those steels.



Generally I'm not a big fan of a pull motion used to sharpen edges. Pulling the edge over any surface, a stone or a leather strop, will raise a burr. That's exactly what we want to prevent when sharpening.
An edge set like that, in a pulling motion producing a microscopic burr, will perform a hanging hair or kitchen towel cutting test very well, and will therefore perform great under those circumstances, but one can imagine how easy that burr will fold or roll once the edge hits the board.
In addition to that a leather strop will round the complete edge over time, producing completely uncontrolled angles on the secondary bevel. Yet I'd prefer the leather strop for maintainance over water stone maintenance as it also wears very little overall.
The fine honing rod on the other hand with its hard surface, will produce some variance in edge angle as well, since it's hand guided, but that angle will be in a much narrower windows than with the leather strop.

A good cutting edge, in my opinion, should be produced with an edge leading motion to break the burr off and produce an, in cross section, triangle looking Apex as good and closed within itself as possible.
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We've never met and I just stumbled on this thread by accident but these statements to the rod vs. wear are consistent with my experience even with very inexpensive and relatively soft stainless steel. My dad grinds his WinCo cleavers for meat and vegetables to zero and these are maintained indefinitely on rods even in his professional kitchens. They're only sharpened on stones to correct the edge for excess accumulated damage. It's a highly pragmatic approach to maintenance if the cuts can tolerate less than stellar edges but I bet even the edge quality is reasonably high given good carbon steel and a Micro Dick.
 
azn_knives_4l said:
We've never met and I just stumbled on this thread by accident but these statements to the rod vs. wear are consistent with my experience even with very inexpensive and relatively soft stainless steel. My dad grinds his WinCo cleavers for meat and vegetables to zero and these are maintained indefinitely on rods even in his professional kitchens. They're only sharpened on stones to correct the edge for excess accumulated damage. It's a highly pragmatic approach to maintenance if the cuts can tolerate less than stellar edges but I bet even the edge quality is reasonably high given good carbon steel and a Micro Dick.
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The Dickoron Micro is a great instrument with simple carbon steel, not much harder than some 60Rc. Be aware though you cannot use it indefinitely: at some point it just doesn't work anymore: some fatigued steel will have to got abraded. A good sharpening, starting a bit coarser than you would normally do, making sure you've fresh steel again. Start behind the edge for some maintenance thinning. To give an idea: home users can postpone a stone sharpening of a Herder 1922, C75W @60Rc, for about a year when using the Micro once a week with a light touch.
 
Benuser said:
The Dickoron Micro is a great instrument with simple carbon steel, not much harder than some 60Rc. Be aware though you cannot use it indefinitely: at some point it just doesn't work anymore: some fatigued steel will have to got abraded. A good sharpening, starting a bit coarser than you would normally do, making sure you've fresh steel again. Start behind the edge for some maintenance thinning. To give an idea: home users can postpone a stone sharpening of a Herder 1922, C75W @60Rc, for about a year when using the Micro once a week with a light touch.
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Yeh... I'm not really sure what fatigued steel means in this context with regards to edge performance or as it relates to the rod but people talk about it commonly enough. Help me out?
 
Wailing away on a stone & esp. on a steel without good technique is detrimental to sharp edges.

There are gray areas not absolutes that do work like polishing steel on carbon blades to prolong say dicing 25# case of tomatoes. But angle integrity on steel is a must & light pressure strokes. After a while must go back to stones.

Many user friendly modern stainless don't need diamonds to sharpen. More fingerpad pressure thining behind edge, putting on mico bevel. Refine micro with lighter strokes or higher grit stone. Lighter strokes on higher grit can make good stainless paper towel sharp.

That said do use JKI diamond 1K & 2K stones on magnacut knives & various supersteel folders to very sharp edges.

Maybe you can get a good edge on Magnacut with regular stones but would take longer.
 
Keithpaints said:
Wailing away on a stone & esp. on a steel without good technique is detrimental to sharp edges.

There are gray areas not absolutes that do work like polishing steel on carbon blades to prolong say dicing 25# case of tomatoes. But angle integrity on steel is a must & light pressure strokes. After a while must go back to stones.

Many user friendly modern stainless don't need diamonds to sharpen. More fingerpad pressure thining behind edge, putting on mico bevel. Refine micro with lighter strokes or higher grit stone. Lighter strokes on higher grit can make good stainless paper towel sharp.

That said do use JKI diamond 1K & 2K stones on magnacut knives & various supersteel folders to very sharp edges.

Maybe you can get a good edge on Magnacut with regular stones but would take longer.
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It's the 'after a while must go back to stones' concept that confuses me. I've never seen this phenomenon at home or in a professional kitchen.

Edit: Also curious about the physics in play and also how it manifests in use.
 
azn_knives_4l said:
Yeh... I'm not really sure what fatigued steel means in this context with regards to edge performance or as it relates to the rod but people talk about it commonly enough. Help me out?
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You ever bend a paper clip repeatedly? Remember how the metal weakens and breaks? Basically same concept for the edge, using a honing rod.
 
M1k3 said:
You ever bend a paper clip repeatedly? Remember how the metal weakens and breaks? Basically same concept for the edge, using a honing rod.
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I'm familiar with the paper clip model of metal fatigue, yes, but leaf springs also exist and these are rated for millions and millions of cycles.
 
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Straightening edge on steel works for a while before steel gets fatigued what was saying. Then you have to go back to the stone to sharpen blade. I used polishing steels on carbon knives at work.

We would get culinary students working for free during busy season saw them wailing away on steels with poor technique. Their knives were not sharp.

When retired volunteered to teach sharpening & knife skills at the school.
Would point out that Japanese & Chinese don't use steels & they have sharp cleavers & knives. I would teach them correct steel honing, but also using a shapton pro s&g for quick touch ups.
Quite a few bought student discount 2K Shaptons at Cherry Japanese Imports here.

I kept it simple not giving so much info. to put them to sleep. Just what they needed to get a dull knife sharp & simple techniques to make them even sharper. It's not rocket science.
 
azn_knives_4l said:
Yeh... I'm not really sure what fatigued steel means in this context with regards to edge performance or as it relates to the rod but people talk about it commonly enough. Help me out?
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About fatigued steel, in addition to @M1k3 : feels like butter. Doesn't take or hold an edge. The burr flips just by looking at it.
 
Keithpaints said:
Straightening edge on steel works for a while before steel gets fatigued what was saying. Then you have to go back to the stone to sharpen blade. I used polishing steels on carbon knives at work.

We would get culinary students working for free during busy season saw them wailing away on steels with poor technique. Their knives were not sharp.

When retired volunteered to teach sharpening & knife skills at the school.
Would point out that Japanese & Chinese don't use steels & they have sharp cleavers & knives. I would teach them correct steel honing, but also using a shapton pro s&g for quick touch ups.
Quite a few bought student discount 2K Shaptons at Cherry Japanese Imports here.

I kept it simple not giving so much info. to put them to sleep. Just what they needed to get a dull knife sharp & simple techniques to make them even sharper. It's not rocket science.
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This is incorrect. I am Chinese and so are the first generation immigrant restaurateurs in my family. All of these people use steels in the kitchen. I hear you and I get the idea but it doesn't register as relevant in my use or my family's use. My dad is retired now but cooks every meal at home for himself and my mom. He hasn't sharpened his cleavers in a decade and likely won't before he dies.

Edit: All of the above is why I ask for the physics. I accept the principle but it appears to be immaterial or impractical as with tempering large steaks.
 
In case it helps with the evaluation, I really have no clue on the maker of the honing steels but they are the inexpensive ridged kind. Cleavers are WinCo but thinned to zero.
 
M1k3 said:
Leaf springs are also much thicker than the apexof a knife. They also aren't bending past point they can hold.
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Correct but the apex of a knife is also not being deflected beyond what it can hold unlike the paper clip model. Paper clips are *also* extremely durable when used as intended.
 
azn_knives_4l said:
Correct but the apex of a knife is also not being deflected beyond what it can hold unlike the paper clip model. Paper clips are *also* extremely durable when used as intended.
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Another factor is that the steel of a knife and the apex have been hardened. Making it more brittle than unhardened or very low HRC steel.
 
M1k3 said:
Another factor is that the steel of a knife and the apex have been hardened. Making it more brittle than unhardened or very low HRC steel.
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Right. All of it matters and this is why I ask about the specifics because the model is inadequate to my experience. Going beyond the steel's ability to 'hold' would presumably result in chips or rolls instead of deflection and SoS shows that even the Spyderco *abrasive* ceramic rods and other typical sharpening methods damage the steel microstructure to the point of fracturing carbides. There's a lot to it and I just don't think the edge fatigue explanation is meaningful when we can just assume some amount of 'error' even from expert users.
 
azn_knives_4l said:
Right. All of it matters and this is why I ask about the specifics because the model is inadequate to my experience. Going beyond the steel's ability to 'hold' would presumably result in chips or rolls instead of deflection and SoS shows that even the Spyderco *abrasive* ceramic rods and other typical sharpening methods damage the steel microstructure to the point of fracturing carbides. There's a lot to it and I just don't think the edge fatigue explanation is meaningful when we can just assume some amount of 'error' even from expert users.
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Yes, there's multiple factors at play. Thinness and hardness of the steel are major contributors.

The thinner you go, the sooner you'll reach the failure point.
 
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