DoYoon Kim
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Would stropping on stone basically have a similar effect as a honing rod (slowly reverse blade on a stone with light pressure). getting good angle is trickey, but for me was easier than getting my honing rod angle good.
Sharpening Stainless (vs. Carbon)?
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If you are used to sharpening carbon steel, stainless is likely to surprise you with its persistent burr retention. Most of my stainless sharpening is about 1/3 sharpening, 2/3 burr removal.
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Same here, I picked up whetstone sharpening fairly quickly/naturally but by golly I feel like I've had a stroke any time I try to hone a crappy stainless. Something just doesn't compute.
KAMON Knives
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I can only tell from what I see on knives that I see from customers, but those edges get significantly thicker.
Also I know how long it takes me to set an edge on a shapton pro 5k on a knife ground to zero and it's not really long. So stones just wear a lot quicker in comparison to the honing rod would be my assertion.
A Belgian blue is somewhat similar to the shapton I quoted I'd say. I know the Belgian blue, but don't know for certain which grit it compares to best on the Japanese water stone scale. Maybe someone knows and can elaborate on that.
The 1.2519 I use is heat treated by me to 65hrc and my Apex ultra to 67hrc. Both work great with the micro honing rod from F. Dick.. Works great on stainless steels like 14c28n as well.
It doesn't work on high alloy tool steels like m390 or magnacut though. And they don't even need to be as hard for it to not work very well or not at all. That's due to the high carbide volume of those steels.
Generally I'm not a big fan of a pull motion used to sharpen edges. Pulling the edge over any surface, a stone or a leather strop, will raise a burr. That's exactly what we want to prevent when sharpening.
An edge set like that, in a pulling motion producing a microscopic burr, will perform a hanging hair or kitchen towel cutting test very well, and will therefore perform great under those circumstances, but one can imagine how easy that burr will fold or roll once the edge hits the board.
In addition to that a leather strop will round the complete edge over time, producing completely uncontrolled angles on the secondary bevel. Yet I'd prefer the leather strop for maintainance over water stone maintenance as it also wears very little overall.
The fine honing rod on the other hand with its hard surface, will produce some variance in edge angle as well, since it's hand guided, but that angle will be in a much narrower windows than with the leather strop.
A good cutting edge, in my opinion, should be produced with an edge leading motion to break the burr off and produce an, in cross section, triangle looking Apex as good and closed within itself as possible.
Honing Rods were used in Hawaii because Hotels hired German, Swiss, & French chefs. By far most used knives were Forschners. I used a smooth polishing steel in long cutting sessions like 5 cases of mushrooms for large banquets. Sharpen 3 times a week on big 1K whetstone. I thinned my Forschners on coarse king stone. Could get them pretty sharp. Edge retention needed stones often for massive amounts of cutting.
NotAddictedYet
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Not to argue but I've always used shaptons for my SG2 knife and I think it works fine. What in your mind is the difference with using diamond stones? Sharpening sped, feedback, the resulting edge or something else?
Chosera 800 > 3k > 2 micron diamond strop has treated me great for SG2. But I've since sold all my SG2 knives and can't compare to what the DMT diamond would have done for them.
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Not taken as an argument, I have used alox for years on SG2 before diamond. SG2 is right on the cusp for really wanting diamonds to sharpen in terms of the mc carbide amount imo. Sharpening speed is first and foremost, and I feel the edge is definitely more aggressive off my venev 800, although usually I would finish on a chosera 3000 so not the fairest comparison. I remember it taking 10 minutes + to form a burr on my miyabi petty on my shapton glass 320 on one side, with my venev 240 it's less than 5
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God chosera 800 was my starting point and it always took forever on sg2 before I decided to drop back to something coarser
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I'm confused by this, Why do we want to prevent getting a burr? Not sure I've seen that before. Is the first and most important step in sharpening not forming a burr? That's what I have been lead to believe over many years at least. Go until you can feel a burr then switch sides, then move on to higher grits and deburr at the end.
I just sharpened Tadokoro SG2 I think the same, it’s definitely not as good as Ginsan or VG10 on conventional stone, very wear resistant
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Did you ever find out who forged the blanks? Very curious on that one.
Nope, feels hard tho
I had pretty lasery Ogata and Kobayashi blades so maybe the thinness at/behind edge helped but it was pretty fast for me
both were stock removal blades, 62-63 HRC. Maybe the Shrimp God smiles upon me- Joined
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Yeah that helps a lot. This gets posted a lot but I'll link it again:I had pretty lasery Ogata and Kobayashi blades so maybe the thinness at/behind edge helped but it was pretty fast for me
Now like I said before SG2 is on the borderline where diamonds should definitely be the play, not like they are 15v, but the vanadium content is starting to become significant where you really want something like diamond or CBN to cut them.
Interesting.
I mainly use Chosera 1k and while a burr isn't instantaneous, it's never been particularly tedious to sharpen SG2 on it.
I wonder whether it's stone to stone variability or perhaps just a different perspective on what constitutes "slow"?
For sure, thinness helps but even when sharpening a middleweight such as Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi, the burr is not that hard to produce.
Removing the burr... now that is a different matter with SG2.
I use a diamond fine stone for SG2 and similar steels. I do feel as though this improves the edge a little.
But you can certainly make a decent SG2 edge with an AlOx stone.
You probably need to be a reasonably decent sharpener before you would notice the difference, though.
KAMON Knives
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Yeah you're right. Many people will tell you that. The burr that forms while pulling during sharpening, so spine instead of edge leading, might be an indication to when you've established an Apex. Because the burr will only form when the Apex is established, but the burr itself is no necessity for sharpness. The Apex is. And also not for the way there. You can test if you've got an Apex either visually or with your fingernails (for example).
The theory sharpening spine leading, nor the practical result, makes much sense to me. It produces a burr no matter what grit. The finer the grit, the smaller the burr. Nevertheless, it's a burr. A fragile thin structure. Sharp, obviously, but no structural integrity. It won't have much resistance to board impact and more or less just fold. So we want to avoid it.
That's why I think one should get rid of the burr and end up with a pretty "perfect" triangle instead of a triangle with an antenna on top.
On the other hand - what would be the theoretical downside of edge leading? It makes sure that as little burr as possible forms in the first place.
Ona macroscopic level you can see what happens pretty easily. Grind a steep angle on a piece of sheet iron on the belt grinder. Edge leading and then spine leading, and compare the two. Pretty much the same happens with the knife edge I think.
To my understanding there is no argument for spine leading. Most examples I've seen either present weak arguments for it, of none at all. And if anything there are some arguments against it. But maybe you can convince me otherwise ^^.
Jovidah
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Or to put it in a shorter fashion: the burr is a means to an end, but not a goal in itself. It's used a lot as a teaching aid because it's pretty idiot proof. It's a means to an end to confirm that you apexed, because the nr 1 mistake (especially of beginners) is to start moving up in grit before apexing.
And yeah I'm also more in edge leading (or more ... parallel to the edge) camp. Always seems to work a lot faster, especially on steels people are complaining about.
And yeah I'm also more in edge leading (or more ... parallel to the edge) camp. Always seems to work a lot faster, especially on steels people are complaining about.
1k-2k stones definitely works on SG2, but going higher conventional stones just don’t do much for sg2, diamond in higher grit gives a much more aggressive edge to me.
Dan-
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Spine leading…more like doing it backwards.
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Ah interesting. Is this discussion in relation to only using pull strokes? Might have been misreading. I sharpen "normally" (or how most people sharpen) just going back and forth and don't do any special techniques. Besides checking for a burr I am not sure how I know an apex is established, also I thought you must achieve a burr to get to the apex?
Would you still personally not pay attention to burr formation when sharpening a conventional way let's say?
Desert Rat
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I believe edge trailing will produce a sharper apex. No free rides and all that, but I have been doing it for years when I want a little bump in sharpness. I do it sparingly, a few really light passes at the end followed by a strop, leather, newspaper, whatever.
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It's actually all pretty mysterious. I ran into someone online who thought a burr was a failure. He was right, for him -- he had been trained by his butcher Dad to sneak up on the apex and get to sharp without ever raising a burr.
Meanwhile, I am certain I have raised a burr without reaching the apex, many times. I don't think it's ghosts; I think it's that steel sort of flows, and you can push it into a burr without touching the apex.
My process is back and forth to get things very close, then edge leading only to refine, and take most of the burr off. Sometimes, with some non-stainless steels, that's all I need to do; sometimes I move to a strop (edge-trailing) or a superfine stone like a translucent Ark or diamond ~10K or SG30K (edge-leading, angle very slightly elevated, very gentle) to get that final clean edge.
I could be wrong about every part of this, except that my edges cut to my satisfaction, so I'm happy anyway.
JustAnotherJoe
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I'm sure many of you have read some of Science of Sharp, but for those that have not, he has a great article on edge leading vs edge trailing on stones.
The Pasted Strop – part 1
Also, I was under the impression that "stropping on stones", refered to edge leading?
For maintenance edge leading on stones makes a lot of sense to me and has worked very well (not a pro, and am trash with a steel's eganomics).
I have also found that freinds and family (non-knife wise people) have more success maintaining their knives with a pasted strop than steels, but that might just be TV's fualt more than anything.
The Pasted Strop – part 1
Also, I was under the impression that "stropping on stones", refered to edge leading?
For maintenance edge leading on stones makes a lot of sense to me and has worked very well (not a pro, and am trash with a steel's eganomics).
I have also found that freinds and family (non-knife wise people) have more success maintaining their knives with a pasted strop than steels, but that might just be TV's fualt more than anything.
I’ve been thinking about this for a while: edge leading vs trailing for final finishing. After initial sharpening via back and forth, I use a bunch of edge leading strokes to eliminate any burr and I used to finish entirely edge leading. You can’t use much stone feedback to set angle with edge leading; its more muscle memory (plus some feedback).
Lately I switched methods for final finishing to edge leading alternating sides per stroke or two ending with light pressure, then longitudinal two strokes parallel to edge per side with very light pressure, then edge trailing two strokes per side with very light pressure (alternating sides per stroke) to refine the edge. Following this a few strokes edge trailing on 1u diamond loaded strop. The theory is a small number of edge trailing refines the edge a bit.
The above gets great results with many steels and works well on carbon steels.
A recent experience with the above produced a wire edge on K390. I’m still not understanding how as edge trailing was 2 strokes per side with knife weight pressure, followed by 3 strokes on a strop with light pressure. The strop made it screaming sharp in tomatoes and paper towel but upon board contact it was destroyed. I noticed pronounced difference of the 3 strop strokes on the edge vs stone finishing (venev diamond stone BTW). I’m just astounded that so few strokes on finishing stones/ strop can produce a wire edge on very wear resistant steel.
Lately I switched methods for final finishing to edge leading alternating sides per stroke or two ending with light pressure, then longitudinal two strokes parallel to edge per side with very light pressure, then edge trailing two strokes per side with very light pressure (alternating sides per stroke) to refine the edge. Following this a few strokes edge trailing on 1u diamond loaded strop. The theory is a small number of edge trailing refines the edge a bit.
The above gets great results with many steels and works well on carbon steels.
A recent experience with the above produced a wire edge on K390. I’m still not understanding how as edge trailing was 2 strokes per side with knife weight pressure, followed by 3 strokes on a strop with light pressure. The strop made it screaming sharp in tomatoes and paper towel but upon board contact it was destroyed. I noticed pronounced difference of the 3 strop strokes on the edge vs stone finishing (venev diamond stone BTW). I’m just astounded that so few strokes on finishing stones/ strop can produce a wire edge on very wear resistant steel.
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I’ve only used takamura and Blazen Sg2 but never felt like I needed anything more than gesh 1k>6k
KAMON Knives
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I should've been clearer. So my initial sharpening by hand through the grits until the last grit is a back and forth motion too. So it's not only edge leading strokes to establish the secondary bevel. But I apply some slight pressure only edge leading whereas I don't when edge trialing. Saying it looks like back and forth but the majority of material is taken down edge leading.
I'm sharpening with the knife tilted to about a 45°-70° angle or so reffering to the stone at 90°in front of me. Not referring to the sharpening angle for the edge. I'm talking about how the knife is angled in reference to the stone viewed from above. So the blade doesn't slide over the stone in a 90° angle like it does with some sharpening systems, nor is it parallel to the lenght of the stone.
That said - once the edge or Apex is established, my finishing strokes are alternating with only the knife weight pressure edge leading.
As for checking for when you've reached the Apex - I slide the edge over my thumbnail in a 90° angle. Looks like I'd cut my finger off through the nail. No pressure of course. Just a slight lateral force to the side.
With an established edge, the knife will run in a ever so slight groove and have some resistance while pulling. Where it's still dull, it will slide out of that groove and also have less resistance while pulling. Hope that makes sense. Complicated to explain
. But yeah... Burr is an indicator I think but not a necessity for sharpness I'd say. The burr has nothing to do really with the rectangle in cross section you want to form as the cutting edge. But if you're used to it, it's not a bad indicator for when you've reached the Apex. I just don't think a burr should be established on purpose in the final strokes as the wear resistance of your edge will suffer.
