Soaker stone 3-5K range

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Ruso

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What are good and not too expensive 3K or 4K soaker stones? I am looking for a soaker to complete my soaker set and becuase soakers tend to have much nicer feedback. I also need the stone to cut well on all the types of steels - from simple carbons to high-alloyed modern steels.
Few options I considered and my thoughts on them.
Gesshin 4K - obvious choice, but with current conversion rate, shipping cost, duties and taxes the price is way too much. So it's out :(
Suheiro Rika 5K - Well priced, has great reputation - but how does it cut high-alloyed steels like ZDP, R2, S30V, S90V, M390, Elmax and similar? Is it up to the job?
Suheiro Cerax 3K - Does not seems to have many opinions and Inferno roasted this line of stones calling them cheap crap. (Not that I care much for his input, but still he was very adamant)

Any input much appreciated.
 
I think the Rika 5k fits the bill. Cheap, fantastic edge, cuts fast. I think it should nicely with the PITA steels too
 
The steels you have listed, whilst all more wear resistant than the more basic steels, still represent a range of wear resistance that - in my opinion - AlOx water stones start to struggle at the extreme end of. Starting at S30V, going into M390, and S90V, I get better results from SiC, Diamond, or CBN abrasives. Suitable AlOx stones can handle R-2, ZDP-189, even Elmax (With progressive difficulty.), but as soon as you start getting into that 4%+ Vanadium range, even stones known for superior performance on more wear resistance steels - like the Shapton Glass range - start to struggle to form a shaving-sharp apex at higher grits, as they can't shape the carbides which are starting to represent more of the edge.

If you want a single stone type to handle all your super-steels forever, I'd pull the trigger on bonded Diamond or CBN stones (Gesshin 1-6K, Poltova, etc.), and not mess around with AlOx. If you're working on folders and outdoor blades alone (Your steel selection suggests this.), even diamond plates like the DMT Dia-Sharp series are perfectly fine on knives factory HT'd for EDC/outdoor use, but I don't care for them on hard, thin kitchen blades.

Soft western kitchen knives, hard custom/Japanese kitchen knives, razors, wide/single bevel Japanese clad kitchen knives, western woodworking tools, Japanese woodworking tools, razors, pocket knives and fixed-blade outdoor knives made of 'super steels', choppers made of soft and simple steels, axes, and scythes are all very unique categories of sharpening that don't overlap very much. Each really benefits of a unique set of sharpening stones/tools...

If you have a collection of more normal kitchen knives, and a collection of EDC/Outdoor blades, I'd try to build two sharpening sets rather than one... If money is an issue, going for budget on both is better than trying to go all-out on one that can satisfy both needs.

Normal kitchen steels, you could satisfy with a limited, and fairly affordable set of water stones that still feel good to sharpen on. EDC/Outdoor blades in super steels, you could satisfy with another more affordable option like SiC stones or diamond plates. If you're not into polished edges, this will make it all the more affordable. How high do you need to take your carry-blades, and how high do you need to take your kitchen knives?

- Steampunk

P.S. I know it's not on-trend here, but if you need to polish your super steels, stropping pastes/sprays in CBN or Diamond pastes/spray in monocrystaline/polycrystaline flavor are very affordable options to refine steels with a lot of hard carbides after the edge has been established to at least the 3-micron level.
 
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I'm going to try some of the higher grade new Venev plates. I had all the old ones and the cbn plates. I've heard they improved them again not so long ago.
 
Steampunk said:
The steels you have listed, whilst all more wear resistant than the more basic steels, still represent a range of wear resistance that - in my opinion - AlOx water stones start to struggle at the extreme end of. Starting at S30V, going into M390, and S90V, I get better results from SiC, Diamond, or CBN abrasives. Suitable AlOx stones can handle R-2, ZDP-189, even Elmax (With progressive difficulty.), but as soon as you start getting into that 4%+ Vanadium range, even stones known for superior performance on more wear resistance steels - like the Shapton Glass range - start to struggle to form a shaving-sharp apex at higher grits, as they can't shape the carbides which are starting to represent more of the edge.

If you want a single stone type to handle all your super-steels forever, I'd pull the trigger on bonded Diamond or CBN stones (Gesshin 1-6K, Poltova, etc.), and not mess around with AlOx. If you're working on folders and outdoor blades alone (Your steel selection suggests this.), even diamond plates like the DMT Dia-Sharp series are perfectly fine on knives factory HT'd for EDC/outdoor use, but I don't care for them on hard, thin kitchen blades.

Soft western kitchen knives, hard custom/Japanese kitchen knives, razors, wide/single bevel Japanese clad kitchen knives, western woodworking tools, Japanese woodworking tools, razors, pocket knives and fixed-blade outdoor knives made of 'super steels', choppers made of soft and simple steels, axes, and scythes are all very unique categories of sharpening that don't overlap very much. Each really benefits of a unique set of sharpening stones/tools...

If you have a collection of more normal kitchen knives, and a collection of EDC/Outdoor blades, I'd try to build two sharpening sets rather than one... If money is an issue, going for budget on both is better than trying to go all-out on one that can satisfy both needs.

Normal kitchen steels, you could satisfy with a limited, and fairly affordable set of water stones that still feel good to sharpen on. EDC/Outdoor blades in super steels, you could satisfy with another more affordable option like SiC stones or diamond plates. If you're not into polished edges, this will make it all the more affordable. How high do you need to take your carry-blades, and how high do you need to take your kitchen knives?

- Steampunk

P.S. I know it's not on-trend here, but if you need to polish your super steels, stropping pastes/sprays in CBN or Diamond pastes/spray in monocrystaline/polycrystaline flavor are very affordable options to refine steels with a lot of hard carbides after the edge has been established to at least the 3-micron level.
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Steampunk, thank you for the write up.
I have a fair number of kitchen, outdoor and folding knives and hence many different steels. From simple carbons to more wear resistant ones. It is also becoming much more affordable and common to see this "super steels" everywhere.
I never thought of having a separate set of stones for more simple steels and another for more high-alloyed ones. I like the idea but my wallet does not though.

I don't really care how polished the bevel looks. As long as the edge performs to my expectation I am usually okay. At some point I was considering Poltava's bonded stones, but decided to not pursue that route - I might revisit the idea based on your suggestions.

SiC stones - Do you know which line of waterstones is using SiC and not Aluminum Oxide? Any benefits of SiC stones compared to bonded diamonds or CBN?
 
SiC stones in our water context here.
King has some (Neo 800 might be worth mentioning the most).
Sigma (Select II 1000 is the one I have).
Razor Edge has some (cheap, working beyond any expectations I had). Gritomatic has some (but there are problems with the supply) and there's one more manufacturer that had a few similar to Gritomatic's, but I just can't remember the name.
 
Good list from Kayman67. 👍

There's also the Norton Crystolon stones if you're open to oil.

Compared to bonded diamond or CBN, SiC is (And I'm slightly doing SiC an injustice.) a 'poor man's solution' to higher wear resistance steels. Diamond and CBN abrasives are harder yet, and the bonded media creates a more precisely defined edge, but the cost is... The cost.

On a budget, I still think you'd be better satisfied with a 2-set solution. Pick up a cheap iWood dual-sided diamond plate in 400/1000 grit on E-Bay for the EDC/Outdoor knives (I don't like coarse/muddy whetstones on folders, as the grit has a way of working its way into the action, and scuffing above the edge makes them look like trash.), and then upgrade to something better when you can. Add a 1-micron paste on balsa or leather to help with deburring, and give the edge a bit of 'toothy polish'.

Then build a set of water stones for your kitchen knives... You don't have to get the most expensive stones. Depending upon your location, there are some good deals from King, Shapton, Suehiro, etc. You don't have to go super high in grit. 2-3 stones would do.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk
 
I am checking Venev bonded diamonds now, pretty pricy.
I cant find it or Poltava does not make full width stones; just 25mm wide?
 
They make anything you like, but different sizes are requested only by Russian vendors, so you need to look there. Obviously a bit difficult to understand the language and order. If you are lucky enough to find shipping for your country.

The CBN big plates were really expensive (around 400$ per grit). These, considering you get two grits, are pretty cheap.
 
I know people who talk about "doping" their stones for abrasion resistant steels with very good effect apparently.
I haven't tried this personally, but adding a few drops of a CBN or diamond paste/emulsion to a normal whetstone can produce very good results according to those people.
The Rika is a fantastic stone in just about every way IMHO. It has a reputation for very good reasons. No problem with R2 or HAP40(haven't tried it on anything more abrasion resistant than this).
Of course, if you have lots of knives with high Vanadium content, then this probably isn't the way to go, but if you're talking about the odd polishing/refining session of one or two knives you could look into the "doping" option. Should be fairly cost effective as well.
 
Ruso said:
What are good and not too expensive 3K or 4K soaker stones? I am looking for a soaker to complete my soaker set and becuase soakers tend to have much nicer feedback. I also need the stone to cut well on all the types of steels - from simple carbons to high-alloyed modern steels.
Few options I considered and my thoughts on them.
Gesshin 4K - obvious choice, but with current conversion rate, shipping cost, duties and taxes the price is way too much. So it's out :(
Suheiro Rika 5K - Well priced, has great reputation - but how does it cut high-alloyed steels like ZDP, R2, S30V, S90V, M390, Elmax and similar? Is it up to the job?
Suheiro Cerax 3K - Does not seems to have many opinions and Inferno roasted this line of stones calling them cheap crap. (Not that I care much for his input, but still he was very adamant)

Any input much appreciated.
Click to expand...

i only roasted it because of quite lacking reviews all over the net and that suehiro had lots of "better lines" that no one wants to import into europe. their premium ****. and that pissed me off.

talking actual soakers, i think you can forget it. they are basically all made for low alloy carbons.

s&g then you have the naniwa pros, glass and pros. they will definitely abrade and sharpen r2 and srs15, vg10, cpm 154 and so on.

its at that 3-4% V (or W or Nb) they stop working well comparatively. but they will still work. also with bench stones its a lot different than a an edge pro or similar device. since you can put down your entire weight on the knife and stone. so you can sharpen about 100 times faster than an edge pro with a concrete brick if you wanted to. no matter what steel.

thats why people use stones. i have a sharpmaker. and you can still push down pretty hard on it to make **** happen. but its still 30 times slower than any stone i own.

------------

if you intend to sharpen a lot of high V% steel. then get a dmt C 325 or F 600. and then 1 micron paste. or several pastes like 2 and 0,5mic.
this is the most efficient and cheapest, and probably best way. personally i dont see the point in taking high carbide steels above maybe 2k. these are not steels for razor edges. thats why razors are not made out of those steels.
 
i had one actual soaker though, a 3k. that could be a potential high carbide finisher, the naniwa hibiki. got it from dictum.de (legit retailer, the most legit) and that stone was rock hard and ultra brutal. i think it will cut any steel. it was like a honey badger. never lost bite. no dishing. it was so weird that the stone never seemed to dish at all. yet had bite.

yeah thats my only guess for a good soaker for high carbide steel imo. i gave mine to my dad. the 1k and the 3k. they took a week to dry and i dont like that.
 
i dont think the hibiki is a tool stone. but it is very hard and very slow wearing yet fast. the hibikis are very good. if youre into soakers that is. and i hate them.
 
i think i did a whole thread about them sometime. about a year ago.
 
inferno said:
i dont think the hibiki is a tool stone. but it is very hard and very slow wearing yet fast. the hibikis are very good. if youre into soakers that is. and i hate them.
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Naniwa Hibiki - something else to consider. I like soakers.
Any idea what abrasive does hibiki stones use? I can't find this info.
 
inferno said:
i dont think the hibiki is a tool stone. but it is very hard and very slow wearing yet fast. the hibikis are very good. if youre into soakers that is. and i hate them.
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Well, introduced two years ago and sold as a tool stone for carpenters mainly. Even they say it is a tool stone and from what I have read here, the hard Chemical is also considered a tool stone by the manufacturer.
Not that this matters, it can still be used for anything. I don't care if a stone is splash and go on has to stay in water. I care how that stone works for my needs.
 
inferno said:
talking actual soakers, i think you can forget it. they are basically all made for low alloy carbons.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense at all. There are many varieties of soaking stones made for different steels and purposes. It's very clear that you have penchant for harder s&g stones, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be a little more nuanced and factual in your statements.

Also, the Hibiki line is mostly listed as hard stones designed for tools made from very hard, low-alloy carbon steels(white and blue steels often mentioned). Of course, like many other stones, they should work on a variety of other steels as well

To OP, you could check out Sigma Power Select 2 series or Pride Abrasives. I've never tried either line, but they were developed for harder, high-alloy tool steels and high-speed steels.
Still, I think you would need CBN or diamonds to actually cut/shape the hardest carbides, if you for example want a very polished, stable edge in a high Vanadium steel.
 
i'm always "fair and balanced" :)

i just dont think any traditional waterstones are really that suited for high v steels. even the shapton pros and glass are much slower with high v steels. even on 2%V steels (like r2) they are about 3-5x slower than with a 0%V steel. just that it works at all doesnt necessarily mean its optimal.
if i only had knives made out of the steels in the first post. i would simply forget soakers, and regular stones in general and get diamond/cbn plates. because it will be much faster.
 
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