Some anxious newbie

[endautrestermes]

Hi everyone !

Being a complete newbie, as I just recently acquired a set of Zwilling Henckel pro, I am now wondering how to maintain them and which whetstone to purchase as my very first one.

I tried to get as much as info in this forum and I think I am settled for the King 1000/6000 as recommended by many members to be the best bang for my buck for a starter. I was initially thinking of the Wüsthof 4451 1000/3000 which I thought would be more appropriate for a start but now wonder as no one seems to recommend any of these.

However, I’m kind of an anxious dude, so I am wondering if I should also purchase some really cheap 4$ Chinese stones (e.g. that Amazon Silverline CB14 which is silicium carbon on 20x5x3cm double which just says "coarse and medium grit") to practice one my cheap fake Sentoku that I got on discount from my local supermarket (and that I want to get rid of anyway). I know this should sound crazy to you pros and enthusiasts, but it’s just that I don’t want to damage a quality stone or my new Zwilling (maybe not the best knife for many on this forum, but still the best I have ever owned) with my supposingly poor beginner’s technique.

Should I man up and just go straight to the King and practice on my Zwilling? Or is this careful approach justified?

Any other suggestion, guidance or opinion on the King 1000/6000 is of course welcome !

Many thanks in advance !

 

[Jovidah]

The Wüsthof looks like it's an OEM product made by Zische. Either way it's not their 'own' product. No experience with their stones though (I think few people here have ever even heard about them). But as with all OEM products you do pay extra for just the brand name...
Personally I'd stay away from it for that reason, and also because you're essentially 'buying blind'. Could be a nice stone, could be utter crap.
What's your budget anyway?

Practising on a cheapo blade first is actually a good idea.

 

[daveb]

Nothing g wrong with starting with Henks. I bought my first "4 Star" in 1984 and was convinced I had the best knife ever.

I was recently showing a youngster some sharpening basics - he had just bought a Wustie Classic and a Wustie 400/2K combo stone. Knife was ok but stone be suck. I've seen the other Wustie stone but not used it. You could not give me either of them.

Many like the Kings for starting. I'm not a fan but would not disparage them. I prefer to suggest the Bestor 1.2K , and Suehiro 5K to start with and you may never "need" to upgrade.

I'm also not a fan of the "practice knife" school of thought. A knife is a chunk of steel - you're not going to break it by trying to put an edge on it despite any novice mistakes you make. You would have to do something very wrong, for a long time, with a lot of pressure, to eff up a knife. And even then you can fix it or punt to one of the services here. You will scuff and scratch the blade a bit but learning how to remove those is part of the process.

Have fun.

 

[endautrestermes]

Thanks so much Gents, based on your feedback, I can already discard the Wusthof stones, really appreciated !

I'm also not a fan of the "practice knife" school of thought. A knife is a chunk of steel - you're not going to break it by trying to put an edge on it despite any novice mistakes you make. You would have to do something very wrong, for a long time, with a lot of pressure, to eff up a knife. And even then you can fix it or punt to one of the services here. You will scuff and scratch the blade a bit but learning how to remove those is part of the process.

That's noted, I should not be worried about the knife, thanks ! However, should I be worried about the stone? I have somehow heard that you could damage (or maybe eat more wear) if you apply some poor technique to it...

Many like the Kings for starting. I'm not a fan but would not disparage them. I prefer to suggest the Bestor 1.2K , and Suehiro 5K to start with and you may never "need" to upgrade.

Thanks for the suggestion ! So I suppose I should not be overly concerned about wearing/wasting these stones with my beginner's technique(?).

Are these stones natural or synthetic? I'm asking because I heard that synthetic stones cut slower, and are therefore more appropriate for beginner in their learning; is that only true?

What's your budget anyway?

If I should not be worried about my beginner's technique damaging or overly wearing my first stones, then money is not a decisive factor, since I would then like to get something that I would not NEED to upgrade for my entire life as suggested by Daveb above, and the 100$ marker is fine for me. If I should worry about it, then I would like to keep it as cheap as possible, if possible below 50$ for a double face like the King (37$, looks like a super bargain on paper).

Again, thank you both for the advices, it's really helpful !

 

[Benuser]

I sharpen soft stainless Germans on a Naniwa Professional (AKA Chosera) 400 and deburr on a Scotch green pad. Not very refined but highly effective. Those knives don't hold a polished edge.

 

[chinacats]

The King you're looking at is fine. You should be aware that they are somewhat dimensionally challenged...and wear very quickly. You will also need to flatten them more than some other stones (though all should be maintained).

 

[Mrmnms]

i am dating myself, but I used a Norton oil tri stone set for similar knives back when. The finest stone was a 320 grit. Anything much higher would just be to de burr. Just refinished a whole set on a 500 grit stone.

 

[Fishman7]

following this one

 

[Benuser]

http://www.knivesandtools.fr/fr/pt/-naniwa-professional-stone-p304.htm

 

[endautrestermes]

i am dating myself, but I used a Norton oil tri stone set for similar knives back when. The finest stone was a 320 grit. Anything much higher would just be to de burr. Just refinished a whole set on a 500 grit stone.

I sharpen soft stainless Germans on a Naniwa Professional (AKA Chosera) 400 and deburr on a Scotch green pad. Not very refined but highly effective. Those knives don't hold a polished edge.

Based on these two comments, should I come to the conclusion that the King 1000/6000 I am looking at is useless (or at least an overkill) for my knives?

Just a precision, I did not buy the Four Star, but the Zwilling Pro, does that make any difference ? Is the quality of the steel better than a "soft German that don't hold a polished edge"?

Anyway, I have the feeling that Henckels is not highly regarded in this forum :biggrin:

 

[Jovidah]

I'll try and summarize things a bit for you (also keeping in mind that you're in Europe which often changes the financial aspect of certain options).
Up front... yes... Henckels (yes, for the Pro line as well) just like Wusthof and most European producers tends to use a relatively soft type of stainless steel. Soft compared to the Japanese. So whereas the Japanese stuff excels in being able to keep a really sharp and fragile edge, the European stuff tends to be better at... well... being abused by total idiots, surviving dishwashers and not breaking apart when used as a crowbar. Considering how most Europeans use their kitchen knives that actually makes total sense.
So as a result of that, most people here will not take European stainless to really fine grits (such as 6000) because there's simply no point. It won't last (if you ever even reach such a fine edge. Which grit to 'end' at is up for debate. Benuser proposes 400 but some people also take it to for example 1000 or 3000. You'll find that in sharpening, every sharpener has his or her own opinion and ideas of what's best have more elements of religion than of science. Although I do think pretty much all would agree that 6000 is overdone. I'm relatively new myself as well so I'm not sure what best to end at.

I think other people than me are better qualified to advice on whether or not to go for a fine finishing stone. It would certainly benefit you if you ever got a knife with Japanese steel like VG-10.

That being said...

I think I can summarize the options (in Europe):
-King 1000/6000 (you can also buy as seperate stones). Watch out, there are different dimensions of these stones. Try to find something big (like 21x7 or in this case 20,5x6,5 cm). Bigger is nicer. Also, find a local (European) seller. It may look cheap on Amazon, but it no longer is after you have to pay customs. You can usually get this stuff for around 50-70 euros.

-The Bester 1200/Suehiro Rika 5000 combination. Definitly a better set of stones. Only shop that I know of who sells both of these is www.fine-tools.com (Feine Werkzeuge). The combination would cost around 110 euros including shipping.

-Another option is to go with the Naniwa's. Those are sold by www.knivesandtools.nl at really competitive prices. The main advantage here is that they are 'splash & go'-stones meaning you don't have to soak them. Downside is you have to watch out to dry them correctly and not oversoak them or they might break. You could get the Naniwa professional 1000 & 3000 stones together for about 125 euros.

There are of course plenty of other options (and other stores). But the last 2 options (both the Bester/Suehiro combination and the Naniwa's) are the kind of 'sets' people keep using for years, regardless of the kinds of knives they buy. At most people buy an extra coarse stone or a finer finishing stone. With the King it's a slightly different story. Some people will keep using it for the rest of their lives (even some very professional people) while others opt to upgrade after a few years.
Brands like Norton or Gesshin you might read about aren't very attractive options in Europe pricewise due to the import costs (Norton is sold, but expensive).

 

[Benuser]

It's no bad steel, but it doesn't support high polishing without having its edge stability compromised. Wüsthof, Zwilling e.a. have chosen to prefer toughness over performance, a perfectly legitimate choice. For you as an end-user it means you should keep the edge a bit coarse. Now, that's all very relative. I've seen a lot of brand-new European edges that were made on some 120-grit grinding-stone or so. And even Japanese factory edges aren't always very fine. So, a Naniwa Professional 400 will offer a relatively refined edge.

 

[endautrestermes]

And I was all excited that it could cut paper from every angle and get these superfin transparent slices from a tomato without touching it (just as the fancy Japanese knives youtube video's)... :laugh:

If 5000-6000 is definitely an overkill, I guess a good compromise would be a nice 400/1000 double face then (or 800-3000). My price dilemma is still intact though: should I stay below 50$ (fearing that I might damage or use too much wear with unproper technique) or should I disregard price as a factor?

Any suggestion?

 

[Jovidah]

Now that's a tough one. You're essentially asking 'how far will I take this hobby'.
Better stones make sharpening faster, more fun and easier. But you can get good edges off all these stones (even cheapo King stone) if you're patient enough. Unless you use it as a hammer or drop it you'll normally damage a knife long before you ever manage to break a stone - soaking mistakes aside. But the question to ask yourself is how much time, money and effort am I willing to invest in this?

Also, stay away from the stones made by knife brands. They aren't....so you usually pay a lot more for a stone that is often mediocre and often overpriced. So no Kai, Wüsthof, Zwilling or Tojiro...

Maybe a bit of a backwards way to go around it, but maybe it helps to actually see what it's all about to see if its for you?
These two playlists really helped me a lot in learning how to sharpen and understanding what I was doing. They might help you in figuring out whether this sharpening business is something you'd enjoy or not.

The one from Japanese Knife Imports: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB
The one from Korin: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsSxXLQSZIe__A5THcrFGto9_PSkXWiN6

Some parts of it are less relevant as they're about specific (specialized) Japanese knives, but a lot of it applies to your knife as well. It doesn't help you with the dilemma of the stones, but it might help you with the dilemma of how deep to dive into the rabbit hole.

 

[ynot1985]

I did not buy the Four Star, but the Zwilling Pro, does that make any difference ?

I thought they were the same except the four star has the plastic handles but blade should be the same

 

[endautrestermes]

I thought they were the same except the four star has the plastic handles but blade should be the same

I feared; they are really vague/emotional on their website rather than factual/technical.

Now that's a tough one. You're essentially asking 'how far will I take this hobby'.
Better stones make sharpening faster, more fun and easier. But you can get good edges off all these stones (even cheapo King stone) if you're patient enough. Unless you use it as a hammer or drop it you'll normally damage a knife long before you ever manage to break a stone - soaking mistakes aside. But the question to ask yourself is how much time, money and effort am I willing to invest in this?

Also, stay away from the stones made by knife brands. They aren't....so you usually pay a lot more for a stone that is often mediocre and often overpriced. So no Kai, Wüsthof, Zwilling or Tojiro...

Maybe a bit of a backwards way to go around it, but maybe it helps to actually see what it's all about to see if its for you?
These two playlists really helped me a lot in learning how to sharpen and understanding what I was doing. They might help you in figuring out whether this sharpening business is something you'd enjoy or not.

The one from Japanese Knife Imports: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB
The one from Korin: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsSxXLQSZIe__A5THcrFGto9_PSkXWiN6

Some parts of it are less relevant as they're about specific (specialized) Japanese knives, but a lot of it applies to your knife as well. It doesn't help you with the dilemma of the stones, but it might help you with the dilemma of how deep to dive into the rabbit hole.

Thanks for the guidance, nice food for thoughts.

I'll do my homework and will report once I have a shortlist ! Thanks everyone !

 

[endautrestermes]

OK I just decided to put my Zwilling Pro's on sale. Anyway, the meat slicer was not the most needed, and I already had a utility Wusthof. So all I needed really is a quality chef. Since I got this Zwilling set on a flash sale on Amazon for 100EUR, I'm confident to sell it quick (maybe on a profit).

I think I'll get a Tojiro DP Chef 8" and the King 1000/6000 for a start, seems like a nice value beginner's kit.
(unless anyone advises me for another Chef knife that is on a budget and easy to start learning sharpening it, as I heard this one might be chipping easily)

Anyway, you guys are awful :biggrin:

 

[Jovidah]

Oh my god what have we done...
I wouldn't just throw everything out just like that simply because a few knife snobs on a forum consider it inferior. You know, there are certainly better knives and steels around but that doesn't mean the Zwilling is completely worthless... For a Western knife they Zwilling Pro's are actually pretty nice because they don't have the big fat bolsters on them - so they're rather easy to sharpen.

You can't really go very wrong with the King stone; even in Europe it's generally cheap and while it may not be the greatest stone it's still one that can get you great results if you're patient enough and willing to learn. All you need to go with it is something to flatten it (and maybe a stone holder). You can do that with drywall sandpaper (in Dutch: 3M schuurpapier voor stuc- en pleisterwerk en gipsplaat).

Regarding the Tojiro...well depends on what you pay for it. They're normally the big budget recommendation around here but I find that in Europe they're generally a lot more expensive (or when shipping from Japan you have to factor in the extra customs costs). You might want to make a seperate thread for recommendations for a knife if you really want to get a new / different knife.
But there isn't really any reason why you couldn't learn to sharpen on the Zwilling. Chances are it'll be a while before you get good enough to notice the difference with a better steel.

 

[endautrestermes]

Oh my god what have we done...

You snobs ruined my life which was full of confidence in the choices made

I wouldn't just throw everything out just like that simply because a few knife snobs on a forum consider it inferior. You know, there are certainly better knives and steels around but that doesn't mean the Zwilling is completely worthless... For a Western knife they Zwilling Pro's are actually pretty nice because they don't have the big fat bolsters on them - so they're rather easy to sharpen.

I know, but I can't stand the fact that I will have to sharpen them more often and that the steel will not last as long as Japanese knives (which therefore makes a much lower price/longevity ratio). I thought I made an investment that I could keep for my entire life, which seems to be wrong, because of the structure of the steel that I would damage on the long run if I tease its edge by making it too sharp/polished. I feel that I don't need to compromise quality for attributes of coping with a careless end-user; I mean I have been religiously taking care of it so far (for no reason it appears) and was about to purchase a fine stone in that sense too.

Regarding the Tojiro...well depends on what you pay for it. They're normally the big budget recommendation around here but I find that in Europe they're generally a lot more expensive (or when shipping from Japan you have to factor in the extra customs costs). You might want to make a seperate thread for recommendations for a knife if you really want to get a new / different knife.

Found one for 55EUR on amazon, sounds reasonnable to me(?). But point taken, I'll open a separate thread if need be

Actually, a Japanese colleague is going to Japan soon and will bring me stuff back, including a King at 3x lower the price (!); so I might consider an (upgraded?) knife too, if that ratio is the same.

 

[Benuser]

Perhaps consider a carbon steel blade to learn sharpening, e.g. a basic Robert Herder.

 

[psfred]

Eh, your knives will be fine. What you need to keep them sharp during use is a smooth knife steel (not an abrasive one). German style knives are soft enough the edge bends when it hits hard things, and a smooth steel will stand it back up straight if used properly. They are very abrasion resistant, so while they won't get super sharp like a Rockwell 64 carbon knife, but the edge won't wear away very quickly.

Use that steel very lightly at the sharpening angle, just wipe it down the edge (or the edge down the steel) on both sides once in a while and you will keep the edge in much better shape for some time. You do NOT want to remove any metal, but stand the edge back up. When steeling doesn't restore the edge, it's time to sharpen on stones.

I personally prefer Japanese knives, but you don't have to rush out and get one and sell your current set. Just keep them sharp and look around for a while, somewhere or another a good knife and a good price will show up. If you can get a Tojiro at Japanese prices, it's a great knife, and since it's the best selling restaurant prep knife in Japan, they are fairly inexpensive for what you get. You will need a higher grit stone for it eventually, but the factory edge is usually pretty good and will last much, much longer than the edge on a Wustoff.

Sharpening is sharpening at 1000 grit, and German knives don't benefit much, if at all, from higher grits. You can use a Tojiro sharpened at 1000 grit, but it will be nicer when polished at higher grit.

The King stones are OK -- I still use my 6000 for most things, although I suspect I'll be using my Arashiyama more in the future. I don't care for the lower grit Kings, but they work fine on knives. Most of my sharpening is woodworking tools, and the rate the Kings dish drives me crazy on plane blades and chisels. Shouldn't be an issue with knives, a bit of convex to the bevel won't hurt, unlike a 2 inch wide plane blade -- a bit of convex there means half the edge won't sharpen on the next stone!

Peter

 

[endautrestermes]

Eh, your knives will be fine. What you need to keep them sharp during use is a smooth knife steel (not an abrasive one). German style knives are soft enough the edge bends when it hits hard things, and a smooth steel will stand it back up straight if used properly. They are very abrasion resistant, so while they won't get super sharp like a Rockwell 64 carbon knife, but the edge won't wear away very quickly.

Thanks Peter, I'm glad to hear.

By smooth knife steel, do you mean something like this ?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B002YK1RAQ

Would a leather strop or just newspaper on top of a whetstone work as well?

If keeping my Henckels, I could still buy a King 1000/6000 and solely use the 1000 side, correct? Or would I also need a lower grit?

 

[psfred]

The King will work fine, and the combo stone is a good choice if you think you may move up to Japanese knives eventually. It won't hurt your German knife, but the 6000 grit side will produce an edge that only last a few cuts. The 1000 side will work fine unless you use the knive to chop stones or something and knock chunks out of the edge. By the time you need a coarse stone to thin it, you will be using a japanese knive, I suspect.

As far as a steel goes, you do NOT want an abrasive one, you want a smooth one made of (wait for it) hardened steel, or if you are feeling very frisky, borosilicate glass. A strop is also not what you want for continuous maintenance of the edge, either newspaper or a stone will remove metal, and that's the opposite of what you want to do on a German (or softer carbon steel) knife. The smooth steel re-aligns the sharp edge, anything abrasive will REMOVE the edge since it's bent over. The smooth steel stands it back up straight until it finally breaks off or wears down. German steel is VERY abrasion resistant, so the edge wears slowly -- it bends over instead if you hit a cutting board or bone with it.

Stropping works great on harder knives, save it for a Japanese one.

Peter

 

[Mrmnms]

Fwiw, I first sharpened the recent set of Henkels I recently did 26 years ago. They belong to a great friend and former kitchen manager. Although they were overdue, they were pretty well maintained . Finished at 500 grit, they will give him up to a year of use steeling lightly between use. He loves these and dies not share my enthusiasm for all these crazy knives. He make awesome food.

 

[krx927]

OK I just decided to put my Zwilling Pro's on sale. Anyway, the meat slicer was not the most needed, and I already had a utility Wusthof. So all I needed really is a quality chef. Since I got this Zwilling set on a flash sale on Amazon for 100EUR, I'm confident to sell it quick (maybe on a profit).

I think I'll get a Tojiro DP Chef 8" and the King 1000/6000 for a start, seems like a nice value beginner's kit.
(unless anyone advises me for another Chef knife that is on a budget and easy to start learning sharpening it, as I heard this one might be chipping easily)

Anyway, you guys are awful :biggrin:

Despite everybody comforting you with your Zwilling I think this is the best decision to take! Tojiro will be much better knife and will hold the edge much longer. When I still had my Henckels it was dull after a couple of months of home use. Japanese knives hold the edge much much much longer.

I just recommended same Tojiro to my cousin who was asking for advice. It's great value on Amazon and with the fee shipping to Belgium even better.

In regards of the stones, like people are saying; for Zwilling 250 to 1000 is enough. Really no need to go to higher grit. For Tojiro you will need higher grit to get the benefit of better steel.

And also be prepared for what Jovidah was saying: 'how far will I take this hobby'. Many of us were like you, first buying Zwilling/henckels and thought we have the best knife in the world. Mine is now in the drawer used occasionally as a beater to cut through some bones or if I ned to cut some wood with it In between I spent $$$ on good Japanese knives and stones

 

[Benuser]

I do hesitate a bit about the Tojiro. Core steel is VG-10, and needs careful abrasion of the burr with a slow progression. Not my first choice for a novice sharpener.

 

[endautrestermes]

I do hesitate a bit about the Tojiro. Core steel is VG-10, and needs careful abrasion of the burr with a slow progression. Not my first choice for a novice sharpener.

In PM, KRX actually kindly advised me on a Tojiro white, which is Carbon. It looks like very good value. Any take on that?
http://www.**************.com/toitkshwa21.html

 

[endautrestermes]

Some forum member advised me something that looks like exactly what I'm looking for in terms of low price and ease of sharpening (yet carbon: the Tojiro white.

http://www.**************.com/toitkshwa21.html

Any take on that?

 

[Benuser]

At that price point expect poor grinding, warps and other issues. Fun as a project. By the way, with shipping from the US, local VAT and handling costs you pay the same as for a perfect Herder 1922.

 

[Jovidah]

Ordering from CKTG isn't really a viable option for you since you're in Europe. First, the shipping costs would be too high and second, (probably for that reason) he doesn't even ship to Europe. Either way, anything you buy from a US vendor would become a whole lot better.
Cannot really comment much about the knife but it's usually described as 'you get what you pay for'. Very reactive cladding, crappy fit & finish and considered a bit of a hobby project.

So like Benuser said; after adding in shipping and VAT you'll end up at a far higher price tag for which you can get better options. I'm not sure I'd recommend the Herder 1922 though. Personally I'd be really annoyed by the fact that it has a big fat bolster.
You're really rather on the lower end of the budget where there aren't a whole lot of 'great' options...and you've already heard most of the low budget ones.
Weren't you the one who had a friend who goes to Japan soon? Because if you could buy in Japan that'd be a whole lot cheaper.