Takada no Hamono vs. Ashi?

[Choppin]

I'm specially interested in the 240 gyutos. How do they compare, specially in terms of grind (thickness, stiffness, board feedback, cutting performance)? Anyone here tried both and could compare? I understand someone at Takada used to work at Ashi so there probably are similarities.

Spine thickness at heel:
Takada: 2.5 - 3.1mm (from different retailers that list it)
Ashi: 2.2 - 2.3mm (Gesshin Ginga at JKI)

So the Ashi seems is a bit thinner, but that doesn't take distal taper into account. Weight seems similar when you consider the difference in handle materials.

PS: basically I'm looking for an excuse to stop looking for a Takada and just grab an Ashi and save some $$ lol. Not really interested in the upgraded finish / handle on the Takada, just performance.

Best,
Vitor.

 

[myguidingmoonlight]

You can get some plainer versions of Takada over Tsubaya. I like Takada's grind more than the Ashi Ginga grind, a bit thicker at the heel with more taper.

 

[Choppin]

You can get some plainer versions of Takada over Tsubaya. I like Takada's grind more than the Ashi Ginga grind, a bit thicker at the heel with more taper.

Price is good, height not so much - 45mm for the 240 gyuto. The Ashi at JKI is 48.5mm tall. But yeah, I like the idea of a slightly thicker grind.

 

[gentiscid]

Can’t go wrong with either or. Whatever your instinct tells u. In such cases the answer is “get both” lol.

 

[Cliff]

I have the 270 Gesshin Ginga in stainless, and, while thin, it's no wallflower. I love it.

 

[Choppin]

Can’t go wrong with either or. Whatever your instinct tells u. In such cases the answer is “get both” lol.

the KKF way!

I'm strongly inclined towards the 240 carbon Gesshin Ginga yo-gyuto... the yo handle adds some heft, which is nice. And I can later sell it to fund a Takada if I find a taller one at a reasonable price.

 

[Choppin]

I have the 270 Gesshin Ginga in stainless, and, while thin, it's no wallflower. I love it.

wa handle?

 

[Cliff]

wa handle?

Yes. Install is great, but I'm thinking of swapping it out for a Kono burnt chestnut I just got. I tend to like bigger handles. In terms of weight, I find Ashi on the solid side of the laser category.

ETA - I was too late to joint the Takada party. I have the JNS Tanaka B1, which I also love. They tend to come in stock more often.

 

[esoo]

Part would depend on if you're a lefty or not - Ashi's are right biased (from what I've handled), while the Takeda's I've handed were neutral.

 

[Choppin]

Yes. Install is great, but I'm thinking of swapping it out for a Kono burnt chestnut I just got. I tend to like bigger handles. In terms of weight, I find Ashi on the solid side of the laser category.

ETA - I was too late to joint the Takada party. I have the JNS Tanaka B1, which I also love. They tend to come in stock more often.

oh the Tanaka looks fantastic... I love the specs, 50mm height on the 210, profile looks sweet also

Is the Tanaka also on the "solid side of laser"? Or more lasery laser?

 

[Choppin]

Part would depend on if you're a lefty or not - Ashi's are right biased (from what I've handled), while the Takeda's I've handed were neutral.

I'm right handed, but good point...

 

[gentiscid]

the KKF way!

I'm strongly inclined towards the 240 carbon Gesshin Ginga yo-gyuto... the yo handle adds some heft, which is nice. And I can later sell it to fund a Takada if I find a taller one at a reasonable price.

Get it! I would go for a 50-53 mm tall gyuto. Not sure how tall cheaper Takadas are, but saw one gyuto 46 mm tall which sounded more like a suji to me lol.

 

[Choppin]

Get it! I would go for a 50-53 mm tall gyuto. Not sure how tall cheaper Takadas are, but saw one gyuto 46 mm tall which sounded more like a suji to me lol.

Yeah the cheaper Takada I have seen are like 45mm tall for the 240. The taller ones, like Bernal recently sold, are 50mm, sound great to me. Both ˜230mm long.

The 240 Ashi at JKI is 48.5mm tall which I also like but could ask Jon for the tallest one.

BTW the cheaper 210 Takadas are like 190x40 which would make a killer line life IMO... specially the Ginsan version.

 

[gentiscid]

BTW the cheaper 210 Takedas are like 190x40 which would make a killer line life IMO... specially the Ginsan version.

Damn, sounds super worthy! And u mean Takadas, right?

 

[Cliff]

oh the Tanaka looks fantastic... I love the specs, 50mm height on the 210, profile looks sweet also

Is the Tanaka also on the "solid side of laser"? Or more lasery laser?

I have the Tanaka in 210 and 270. They are the knives I pull out when I want to pay attention. The 210 is pretty tall, and mine came with a big, high-quality, 50mm long d-shape handle.

 

[Choppin]

Damn, sounds super worthy! And u mean Takadas, right?

ops yes, Takada...

 

[zizirex]

The reason the Tsubaya was shorter is that Japanese people tend to use shorter heel knives, while for the export version to demand this forum etc, want more heel height.

The Japanese one tends to be slightly thicker on the mid-blade and heftier, hence a bit better food release.

 

[Choppin]

I have the Tanaka in 210 and 270. They are the knives I pull out when I want to pay attention. The 210 is pretty tall, and mine came with a big, high-quality, 50mm long d-shape handle.

Do they feel fragile / too thin? I'm looking for a more practical laser, on the solid side of things...

 

[Cliff]

Do they feel fragile / too thin? I'm looking for a more practical laser, on the solid side of things...

More fragile than Ashi for sure, less so than Shibata or the Yoshi SKD I have, my version of the latter is particularly thin behind the edge.

 

[Choppin]

More fragile than Ashi for sure, less so than Shibata or the Yoshi SKD I have, my version of the latter is particularly thin behind the edge.

that's helpful, thanks!

 

[Cliff]

I really don't worry about my Ashi for basically anything. I'm pretty careful with the Tanakas -- not sure if they need it, but that's how I use them. I have Munetoshi, Kanehide, a Misono dragon if I'm cutting through crusty bread, dealing with nuts, banging things out in a hurry. I wouldn't think of using Shibata or Yoshi for those kinds of things.

 

[superworrier]

Takadas are definitely biased. I owned 2 and the back side is definitely near flat. In fact, they were originally choil rounded for righties. You can see a pretty clear bias in the choil shot

 

[thebradleycrew]

One persons opinion here: I've used multiples of both makers so have some decent feedback. Here you go.

Overall, I'd go Ashi over Takada any day. They are less flashy, less money, and work just as well. To boot, I believe they can take more abuse for regular cooking. If you are looking to use it a lot and not baby it, go Ashi.

Takada was influenced in terms of grind and they are somewhat similar in that regard. Both on the "thin" or "laser" side of the equation. Both have very good food release for being thinner at the spine knives and both have good, subtle convexity to the grinds. The Takada's I've had are a tiny bit thinner behind the edge (subjectively - not measured). But they FEEL a lot more fragile on the board to me. I've never, ever chipped, broken, or damaged an Ashi. Despite them being so thin. They are just a really nice balance of HT and grind/thinness. The Takada are thinner and perhaps on softer foods have an easier cutting feel. But I get the feeling that it has to be more babied.

In the 15 or so knives between the two makers that I've personally handled, in multiple steel types, I've seen more right-specific Takada than right-specific Ashi. In fact, almost all of my Ashi have been 50/50 grind (and I mean that by not just looking at the choil, but rather the grind along the blade). Some earlier Takada had a very pronounced right-specific choil grind that was terrible to use left handed.

Not sure if that covers things, but happy to elaborate.

 

[esoo]

As the comments on swinging both ways, just to clarify my comment - I had a Takada Ginsan gyuto and Blue 1 nakiri that were basically neutral, and my Hitohiro Tanaka x Yohei is left ground (judged by using a card all along the grind on both sides), but had a right ground choil (which I had to do some work on).

 

[Choppin]

One persons opinion here: I've used multiples of both makers so have some decent feedback. Here you go.

Overall, I'd go Ashi over Takada any day. They are less flashy, less money, and work just as well. To boot, I believe they can take more abuse for regular cooking. If you are looking to use it a lot and not baby it, go Ashi.

Takada was influenced in terms of grind and they are somewhat similar in that regard. Both on the "thin" or "laser" side of the equation. Both have very good food release for being thinner at the spine knives and both have good, subtle convexity to the grinds. The Takada's I've had are a tiny bit thinner behind the edge (subjectively - not measured). But they FEEL a lot more fragile on the board to me. I've never, ever chipped, broken, or damaged an Ashi. Despite them being so thin. They are just a really nice balance of HT and grind/thinness. The Takada are thinner and perhaps on softer foods have an easier cutting feel. But I get the feeling that it has to be more babied.

In the 15 or so knives between the two makers that I've personally handled, in multiple steel types, I've seen more right-specific Takada than right-specific Ashi. In fact, almost all of my Ashi have been 50/50 grind (and I mean that by not just looking at the choil, but rather the grind along the blade). Some earlier Takada had a very pronounced right-specific choil grind that was terrible to use left handed.

Not sure if that covers things, but happy to elaborate.

thanks, that’s exactly the kind of feedback I was after

I recently got a Gesshin Ginga 180 SS yo-gyuto and I liked it so much I was considering its 240 carbon version. Not only if performs great, but also feels uncomplicated and relatively robust, despite its thinness. The extra weight from the western handle also feels nice on an otherwise thin and light blade. I'm just a home cook but I don't like to baby my knives too much (besides the usual care with carbon steel). Its also miles ahead of any yo monosteel I have tried (Misono, Sakai Takayuki, vintage kanto knives).

And then I started looking at Takada as an alternative, given the similarities. But I imagined it was actually a bit thicker than Ashi.

yeah, considering price, availability, and your feedback, I believe Ashi is the way to go.

 

[zizirex]

I don't know how many people experience it but Ashi Yo Handle is slightly thicker than Wa handle counterpart.
i have experience having the 180 petty and 240 gyuto and handling some santoku.

the Western handle tends to be thicker BTE.

 

[Heckel7302]

I can only speak to my Takada Blue 1, but happy to do a side by side comparison with @thebradleycrew ‘s Ashi Honyaki when I receive it tomorrow.

My Takada c.2020 is most certainly right biased. The left side is near flat and the right about as convex as a laser can be. Choil is fully ground over for the right hand. Food release is surprisingly good. I agree that it does feel a little delicate. Maybe because of the relatively neutral balance the knife doesn’t do as much of the work for you than knives with thicker spines.

Bangers and mash with cabbage for St Patrick’s Day tonight. Was inspired to take the Takada out.

EDIT: meant to add that my 240 is 49.5 at the heel

 

[thebradleycrew]

@Choppin - if you want to try out a Ashi 240 either in stainless or White 2, hit me up - happy to send you one to try out. Also, I have a stainless 180mm petty that I'm happy to send you to try out. I have all three on hand currently. I no longer own any Takada, FWIW.

@Heckel7302 - look forward to feedback on the Ashi honyaki!!!

 

[Choppin]

@Choppin - if you want to try out a Ashi 240 either in stainless or White 2, hit me up - happy to send you one to try out. Also, I have a stainless 180mm petty that I'm happy to send you to try out. I have all three on hand currently. I no longer own any Takada, FWIW.

@Heckel7302 - look forward to feedback on the Ashi honyaki!!!

that’s very kind of you, thanks!! I’ve been traveling like crazy for work these days but I’ll PM you once I have more time at home.

besides the 180 gyuto I also have a 180 stainless Ashi yo-petty, use it daily. very useful knife.

 

[toddnmd]

Noting the following from the OP: "I understand someone at Takada used to work at Ashi so there probably are similarities."

Takada is Mitsuaki Takada (a person) who worked at Ashi for 15ish years, then started his own shop, Takada no Hamono, in 2018. So, there are going to be a lot of similarities. Both are known for light and thin knives that cut very well.

Takada might have some help, but I think he does most of the work himself. He's a grinder/finisher, often working on blanks forged by Y Tanaka and Nagagawa, who worked for a long time under Shiraki, until he retired.

I really love both Ashi and Takada, and have knives from both, and have visited/met both For pure value, yes, I'd go with Ashi. I think Takada offers something a bit more special in terms of his grinds and finishes. Last month I picked up one of the taller blue 2 240 Gyutos from Bernal (~50mm at the heel), but haven't used it yet. Even for a typically undersized Sakai gyuto (it's in the low 230s in length), it's super light at 141 grams. Hopefully it doesn't feel too delicate/fragile. I concur with Cliff that I find my Yoshikane SKD a bit delicate and needs to be used with care (still love it! Man, that blade can cut!).