That which shall not be named

[spaceconvoy]

spaceconvoy, it looks like dave was forthcoming and completely honest about the whole situation. im not sure why exactly you decided not to trust him, and it seems to me like youre on a witch hunt.
you claim to love this site because of the valueable information that can be found here, unfortunately all that youve decided to contribute is mudslinging and all around trolling.

It's not that hard to understand, so why does no one seem to get it? Seems like you guys are blinded by loyalty and are just seeing what you want to see. Let me spell it out in chronological order:

- Dave carries the Takenoko
- Dave starts selling the Arashiyama
- In Japan, I find out (from MetalMaster, actually) that they're the same stone
- I tell Dave about this via PM
- Dave tests and confirms they are the same stone
- Dave does the stand-up thing, tells everyone the story, and offers to refund people who bought both
- Dave says "I've decided to only continue to sell the Arashiyama 6k version as this seems the more honest thing to do."
- At some point later, he switches back to selling the Takenoko, without any indication that it's the same stone as the Arashiyama

Michael, this is not the same thing as someone selling one bad knife. It is the same as Mark claiming something that's not true just to make a profit. I'm not saying this is what Dave does all the time. I'm also not defending Mark's shady business practices. This is the extent of my argument, so stop putting words in my mouth.

I generally agree that Mark sells overhyped and overpriced crap to the uninformed consumer, who is fooled into believing they're worth more based on his rock bottom prices for widely respected items... But Dave has used his formerly well-earned reputation to convince the kool-aid drinkers of this forum that he sells unique stones and his competitor's products are worse than they are in reality.

And here's why I think this isn't off topic. We're talking about why we can't discuss a certain brand of stones on this forum. The majority have claimed it's because Mark is evil and they're probably crap stones because he lies all the time. My argument is it's because of a personal grudge between Dave and Mark, and Dave's own lies have poisoned this forum against everything that Mark sells, deservedly or not.

 

[labor of love]

if youre waiting for all the oohs and aahs and gasps you think are about to commence because of your phony bombshell, you really need to grow up alittle. nobody cares if dave rebands a stone or not, all thats important is tht he stands behind his products. rebranding of stones is pretty common anyway.
so how are you not a troll again? this thread is supposed to be about stones mark carries, yet youve seem to found it necessary to bash dave and his business, the reason being he may or may not rebrand stones? your inability to stay on topic leads me to believe your motives here are to sling mud. and for what? how about you get off your pedistal before you lose what little credibility you have left.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

- At some point later, he switches back to selling the Takenoko, without any indication that it's the same stone as the Arashiyama

It only seems to me that this would be an issue IF he sold both stones to the same person after beginning to offer the other stone again...which personally I don't believe he would do. I have had very little interaction with Dave, and one of those interactions some people would consider negative. The one negative interaction was simply Dave enforcing the rules of the forum...of which I wasn't aware at the time. In all of the other times we've had contact, he's been honest, open, and friendly.

When I owned my racing engine business...we became vendors for two separate brands of high end forged aluminum pistons. When the first order from the second company came in...we saw that they were the SAME pistons, and I verified through BOTH of my reps that the first company (the manufacturer) sold the blanks to the second company, and even lasered their name on them for them. Thing is...the second company gave us an INCREDIBLE price break, and so I did the majority of my business through them. Some customers however REQUIRED the first companies pistons, despite our assurances that they were the same. So in those cases I gave them what they wanted. And yes...on our website, we still offered both. Being able to increase the listed offerings on your store will often bring in more customers who are searching for one particular item, that you may have missed otherwise. When someone ordered a set of the first manufacturers pistons, I ALWAYS followed up (before charging) with an email offering the second piston at the lower price after explaining the situation.

So my friend, what you're complaining about is pretty much a common sense business practice.

 

[spaceconvoy]

if youre waiting for all the oohs and aahs and gasps you think are about to commence because of your phony bombshell, you really need to grow up alittle. nobody cares if dave rebands a stone or not, all thats important is tht he stands behind his products. rebranding of stones is pretty common anyway.
so how are you not a troll again? this thread is supposed to be about stones mark carries, yet youve seem to found it necessary to bash dave and his business, the reason being he may or may not rebrand stones? your inability to stay on topic leads me to believe your motives here are to sling mud. and for what? how about you get off your pedistal before you lose what little credibility you have left.

I've explained why I think my arguments are on topic. You're the one who is ignoring what I say, putting words in my mouth, and resorting to personal attacks.

 

[chinacats]

I've explained why I think my arguments are on topic. You're the one who is ignoring what I say, putting words in my mouth, and resorting to personal attacks.

I disagree, you are the one resorting to personal attacks. If not, why didn't you just pm Dave and see if he has what you would consider to be a reasonable explanation rather than slamming him behind his back over one stone. Mark has bs'd people over every item he sells and will continue to do so--to try to equate one with the other is less than honest.

 

[Paradox]

I disagree, you are the one resorting to personal attacks. If not, why didn't you just pm Dave and see if he has what you would consider to be a reasonable explanation rather than slamming him behind his back over one stone. Mark has bs'd people over every item he sells and will continue to do so--to try to equate one with the other is less than honest.

I'm sure that Dave can chime in if he feels he needs to. Openly making this discussion on his forum is not anything like slamming him behind his back. Dave's a big boy and can speak for himself though. Now compare that to the attacks you make at Mark whenever he is mentioned, THAT is attacking behind the back. At least spaceconvoy is playing in Dave's own sandbox.

Clearly you guys are missing the fact that the continued Mark bashing at every mention of him and his stuff from the same usual suspects here on KKF is hurting the credibility of KKF as a whole. I'm not even a player in any of this and I get PMs from people on other boards asking about it all. LOL!

 

[Frater_Decus]

Clearly you guys are missing the fact that the continued Mark bashing at every mention of him and his stuff from the same usual suspects here on KKF is hurting the credibility of KKF as a whole. I'm not even a player in any of this and I get PMs from people on other boards asking about it all. LOL!

+1!

 

[mhlee]

Uh . . . you've obviously missed how complaints of Mark or his products are criticized by the moderators of other forums (several are Mark's fanboys - see KKF (Antonio Luiz) and Foodie Forums (MadRookie)) and how those threads are modified or deleted. I've personally seen a member on KKF be strong armed into accepting blame for an issue, the title of his thread changed from being critical to praiseworthy of Mark, and critical posts deleted.

This forum has way more credibility than the other forums. The fact that so many members from other forums come here to learn how to fix Mark's deficient knives says enough about by his forum.

 

[mhlee]

I generally agree that Mark sells overhyped and overpriced crap to the uninformed consumer, who is fooled into believing they're worth more based on his rock bottom prices for widely respected items... But Dave has used his formerly well-earned reputation to convince the kool-aid drinkers of this forum that he sells unique stones and his competitor's products are worse than they are in reality.

And here's why I think this isn't off topic. We're talking about why we can't discuss a certain brand of stones on this forum. The majority have claimed it's because Mark is evil and they're probably crap stones because he lies all the time. My argument is it's because of a personal grudge between Dave and Mark, and Dave's own lies have poisoned this forum against everything that Mark sells, deservedly or not.

You blaming Dave for this is stupid. I have enough personal experience with Mark to never trust him or buy anything from him ever again and I will openly say as much to anyone who asks me. Dave didn't cause me to feel this way about Mark; Mark did.

Many other members feel the same way. Do some research. Get a brain.

 

[Timthebeaver]

+1!

Excellent early posting.

Why does shyte like this always result in no-marks coming out of the woodwork?

 

[labor of love]

go run and play at the cktg forum already. no one hear is crying over marks hurt feelings.

 

[Dave Martell]

This is why I think this topic is important - I want this to continue to be the place you're describing, but it takes effort to point out the bull and keep things honest. When I see so many people bash a knife they've never used, based on biased reviews from people with an axe to grind, it bothers me. This place can be just as much a fan-boy echo chamber sometimes, when it comes to certain products.

And btw, does anyone remember this? http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/850519/



So by his own admission, Dave apparently doesn't mind "duping" his customers now? - http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Takenoko-sharpening-stone-8000x-8k-p/tak8000.htm

This, combined with the self-serving censorship and hyperbolic negative reviews of anything Mark sells, is why I have lost almost all respect for him. I might get banned for this, but so be it - either way, I think people should know that it's not as cut and dry as Dave=good, Mark=evil. Dave is just the lesser of two evils.

Yes, he did good in the past - past-Dave was great and still has my respect. You're missing the point. Today he continues to sell the stone as Takenoko 8000, even though he said selling it as Arashiyama was the honest thing to do. Apparently he doesn't mind now if people are tricked into buying two of the same stones.

Way to completely miss the point as well. He does sell the Arashiyama, branded as Takenoko purposely to convince the uninformed that he's selling a unique stone. It's. the. same. stone.

I'm not generalizing his business practices at all. Where do I say anything like that? I'm giving one concrete reason why I personally don't trust Dave's opinion anymore

It's not that hard to understand, so why does no one seem to get it? Seems like you guys are blinded by loyalty and are just seeing what you want to see. Let me spell it out in chronological order:

- Dave carries the Takenoko
- Dave starts selling the Arashiyama
- In Japan, I find out (from MetalMaster, actually) that they're the same stone
- I tell Dave about this via PM
- Dave tests and confirms they are the same stone
- Dave does the stand-up thing, tells everyone the story, and offers to refund people who bought both
- Dave says "I've decided to only continue to sell the Arashiyama 6k version as this seems the more honest thing to do."
- At some point later, he switches back to selling the Takenoko, without any indication that it's the same stone as the Arashiyama

Michael, this is not the same thing as someone selling one bad knife. It is the same as Mark claiming something that's not true just to make a profit. I'm not saying this is what Dave does all the time. I'm also not defending Mark's shady business practices. This is the extent of my argument, so stop putting words in my mouth.

I generally agree that Mark sells overhyped and overpriced crap to the uninformed consumer, who is fooled into believing they're worth more based on his rock bottom prices for widely respected items... But Dave has used his formerly well-earned reputation to convince the kool-aid drinkers of this forum that he sells unique stones and his competitor's products are worse than they are in reality.

And here's why I think this isn't off topic. We're talking about why we can't discuss a certain brand of stones on this forum. The majority have claimed it's because Mark is evil and they're probably crap stones because he lies all the time. My argument is it's because of a personal grudge between Dave and Mark, and Dave's own lies have poisoned this forum against everything that Mark sells, deservedly or not.

Wow, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I had overlooked the admission of the two stones being (what I feel are) the same into the product description. I've corrected that....

http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Takenoko-sharpening-stone-8000x-8k-p/tak8000.htm

From my own testing I believe this stone to be the same as the Arashiyama 6k

As for why I sell the Takenoko vs the Arashiyama....it's simple it's the one that I can get easier and cheaper.

Conway, while I appreciate you bringing this oversight to my attention I would ask in the future that you might send me a Pm or email if something like this comes up again so as I might have a chance to fix the problem as I easily just did prior to you becoming so upset over nothing.

 

[mzer]

Knife Geekery does not need to be a team sport, but this forum, and frankly a good bit of this is from Dave's actions, seems to treat it as such. I really like Maxim and Jon, and they have both supplied me with great knives, great stones and even better information. I've purchased from Mark as well, mainly in the past and without the same level of service, but always happily and with good results. If this forum is actually going to be respectable then it is time to leave the petty b.s. behind and stop talking about Mark Richmond as though he was some bigger than life monster who eats the heads off of puppies. It is lame and most of the members here are better than that.

Oh, fwiw, the Dave stone thing seems like a total non issue, if we are counting hands.

 

[Dave Martell]

For those of you who are wondering why the word ******** (Nuuuuuuuuuuu Buuuuuuuuuuuuu Taaaaaaaaaaaaaa Maaaaaaaaaaaaaa, as Ken says it) has been blocked or why these stones do not get talked about here, well, the word is blocked because of links - not censorship - and the stones aren't talked about because no one has them.

 

[spaceconvoy]

You blaming Dave for this is stupid. I have enough personal experience with Mark to never trust him or buy anything from him ever again and I will openly say as much to anyone who asks me. Dave didn't cause me to feel this way about Mark; Mark did.

Many other members feel the same way. Do some research. Get a brain.

I've said it before, several times in this very thread, but apparently I need to say it again... I haven't shopped at CKTG for years, and I feel the same way about Mark as you do! I'm not blaming Dave for Mark's well deserved bad business reputation. I'm blaming Dave for exaggerated negative comments on all of Mark's products, based on a personal grudge rather than an objective review of those products.

Clearly you guys are missing the fact that the continued Mark bashing at every mention of him and his stuff from the same usual suspects here on KKF is hurting the credibility of KKF as a whole.

Yes! This is why it bugs me so much. Bash his business practices all you want. Bash the overgrinds and terrible geometry of his knives, assuming you've had first hand experience with them... I have a problem in general with forum members who parrot the common wisdom on products they've never used. Saying "I've heard from Dave that the Artifex's aeb-l is crap" is fine. Saying "the Artifex's aeb-l is crap" without any first hand experience is not. Unfortunately, that's human nature and will probably never change.

The problem is compounded when common wisdom is being driven by someone with an agenda. I don't trust any reviews on Mark's forum, that's a given, but I also don't trust the excessively negative reviews here. That's a credibility problem. And the fact that we can't even discuss certain brands is self-defeating. It guarantees that if a noob searches for ******** on google, they will only see the skewed positive reviews. How is any of this good for the community?

 

[JDA_NC]

get over it. this forum has its own vendors that carry stones, instead of trying to figure out whether or not marks stones are a rip off, you should really just find a better vendor with better stones. shouldnt be that hard.

Relax buddy.

I am quite happy with my current stones and have already mentioned my next purchases will mostly like be some Gesshins & possibly Maxim's JNS 800. Does that make you a little less defensive?

I'm a line cook and I make line cook wages in the South. I don't base my purchases (which are part of my livelihood) off group-think or certain website's vendors. I happen to like the vendors for this website quite a bit - mostly because they have helped me become better educated about multiple things - but I have ZERO bias towards them or any other vendor. When I was down in your neck of the woods cooking a few years back, all my fellow cooks told me that CKTG was the website for knives. I have bought multiple knives, stones and bags through them - all at an affordable price, with ridiculously quick, free shipping, and everything received safely and in good condition.

I am not a fanboy. I understand completely why Mr. Martell feels the way he does - and stated each time in this thread that I respect it. That he doesn't want to send any sort of business their way makes complete sense to me. Why other people in this community don't want to spend their money there, I get that too. But for me, I have spent hundreds of dollars there and had zero problems - so I will continue to keep an open mind about their products. Simple as.

Edit: Ken Schwartz is obviously a bit of a buffoon. Just listening to him talk for more than 5 minutes or his sales pitch for his 'swordsmith' knives confirms that. And a lot of the CKTG videos are cringeworthy. But that doesn't change that I feel my Nuuubbaaaattaammma 1k stone is a very good stone or that they have a wide and affordably priced selection

 

[spaceconvoy]

Wow, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I had overlooked the admission of the two stones being (what I feel are) the same into the product description.

Dave, they ARE the same stone. Why can't you admit that straight up?

And I did bring it to your attention discretely via PM years ago. You had the chance to fix the problem, but apparently you never felt the need to tell the truth to consumers.

If this didn't reek of the same evasion and tortured truth bending as the whole JKS/Imanishi 10k debacle, I'd be much more inclined to believe this was an innocent mistake.

 

[Dave Martell]

Dave, they ARE the same stone. Why can't you admit that straight up?

And I did bring it to your attention discretely via PM years ago. You had the chance to fix the problem, but apparently you never felt the need to tell the truth to consumers.

If this didn't reek of the same evasion and tortured truth bending as the whole JKS/Imanishi 10k debacle, I'd be much more inclined to believe this was an innocent mistake.

I have never received confirmation from either of my sources of these stones that they are the same so all I can say is that they sure seem to be to me and let people do what they will with this info. I'm sorry that this doesn't work for you.

I'm not supposed to be talking about my products that I sell outside of my forum so I'll have to make this my last reply here.

 

[mhlee]

I've said it before, several times in this very thread, but apparently I need to say it again... I haven't shopped at CKTG for years, and I feel the same way about Mark as you do! I'm not blaming Dave for Mark's well deserved bad business reputation. I'm blaming Dave for exaggerated negative comments on all of Mark's products, based on a personal grudge rather than an objective review of those products.

Are you blaming Dave for causing others to write any "exaggerated negative comments" about Mark's products?

If you're just talking about Dave's opinion alone, what's wrong with that? Mark openly bashes Dave on his forum. And like Mark or his beggars would ever praise the product of someone else. Have you seen any of Jon's, Dave's knives praised there?

Get back to us when you see a thread praising Dave's or another KKF vendor that doesn't sell through Mark. In the meantime, get a brain.

 

[NO ChoP!]

Although Dave may take great pleasure in others slamming Mark, I feel he has resisted the temptation himself for a good while. Maybe it's true that we learn from our mistakes, and most of us know these posts don't usually end very well. For most, I don't even think the topic matters, it's more the feelings that are conjured. It's like bringing up cheating in a marriage....

 

[bahamaroot]

Get back to us when you see a thread praising Dave's or another KKF vendor that doesn't sell through Mark. In the meantime, get a brain.

I've seen Gesshin knives, Gesshin stones and David Smiths cutting boards all praised on CKTG's forum.

 

[labor of love]

Relax buddy.

I am quite happy with my current stones and have already mentioned my next purchases will mostly like be some Gesshins & possibly Maxim's JNS 800. Does that make you a little less defensive?

I'm a line cook and I make line cook wages in the South. I don't base my purchases (which are part of my livelihood) off group-think or certain website's vendors. I happen to like the vendors for this website quite a bit - mostly because they have helped me become better educated about multiple things - but I have ZERO bias towards them or any other vendor. When I was down in your neck of the woods cooking a few years back, all my fellow cooks told me that CKTG was the website for knives. I have bought multiple knives, stones and bags through them - all at an affordable price, with ridiculously quick, free shipping, and everything received safely and in good condition.

I am not a fanboy. I understand completely why Mr. Martell feels the way he does - and stated each time in this thread that I respect it. That he doesn't want to send any sort of business their way makes complete sense to me. Why other people in this community don't want to spend their money there, I get that too. But for me, I have spent hundreds of dollars there and had zero problems - so I will continue to keep an open mind about their products. Simple as.

Edit: Ken Schwartz is obviously a bit of a buffoon. Just listening to him talk for more than 5 minutes or his sales pitch for his 'swordsmith' knives confirms that. And a lot of the CKTG videos are cringeworthy. But that doesn't change that I feel my Nuuubbaaaattaammma 1k stone is a very good stone or that they have a wide and affordably priced selection

im very relaxed. thanks for asking. it doesnt matter who you are or what your background is. i was giving you advice, not insulting you. just find a vendor you can trust and use him to your advantage.

 

[labor of love]

I've seen Gesshin knives, Gesshin stones and David Smiths cutting boards all praised on CKTG's forum.

ive seen artifex, ultamatums, and richmond lasers spoken of highly here.

 

[mhlee]

I've seen Gesshin knives, Gesshin stones and David Smiths cutting boards all praised on CKTG's forum.

Do a search of Gesshin. I just did. There are 5 posts. Praise? Hardly. And no posts about Gesshin knives except for someone who owns one and listed it among the knives he owns.

If they were praised as you put it, those posts aren't there anymore.

 

[knyfeknerd]

Sometimes it burns when I pee.

 

[knyfeknerd]

Sometimes it burns when I pee.

Yep
I'll bet it's Dave Martell's fault.
If KKF didn't suck so bad, my peepees wouldn't hurt.
Screw this place, I'm a gonna go help Kenny out with the KF revival.

 

[labor of love]

kf has awesome BST deals, i still lurk there.

 

[brainsausage]

I'm gonna blame the full moon for all the craziness around here lately. It's tried and true. Maybe tomorrow this place will be back to 'normal'.

 

[chinacats]

blah, blah, blah...Now compare that to the attacks you make at Mark whenever he is mentioned, THAT is attacking behind the back...blah, blah, blah...

Just to finalize my position here...I've told Mark directly that he has a lack of scruples as well as a lack of knowledge about knives...so there.

I'm gonna blame the full moon for all the craziness around here lately. It's tried and true. Maybe tomorrow this place will be back to 'normal'.

gotta' love it...and I'm done with my current rant about the lack of quality of Mark's gear and his total ignorance of quality customer care

Cheers

 

[Frater_Decus]

Excellent early posting.

Why does shyte like this always result in no-marks coming out of the woodwork?

Excellent rude behavior. I've commented in several threads already, including an introductory post of my own, and this was my support of a comment. If you have a problem with someone writing "+1," what are you doing on a forum? There's no need to be inhospitable, especially when I'm not even bring inflammatory. Save the snark for those deserving of it, if you don't mind.