The Custom Knife Myth

[malexthekid]

I want to thank Chris and Devin for their input. I hope this puts it in perspective.
As a pro Chef, I understand what it's like to be undervalued and how the majority of people outside of BOH operations think that cooks and chefs can just produce food (any food) by magic.

Here here. Thanks for the comments and totally agree.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

I want to thank Chris and Devin for their input. I hope this puts it in perspective.
As a pro Chef, I understand what it's like to be undervalued and how the majority of people outside of BOH operations think that cooks and chefs can just produce food (any food) by magic.

You are very welcome sir. If I manage to step outside of what is acceptable within the rules, please delete it immediately.

 

[chinacats]

Just for a change of pace...I really enjoy being able to work with a maker that I trust to bring me a knife that is made to my specs. I mostly use J-blades but my favorite knife is definitely a full custom and while a big part of that is that the profile is exactly what I wanted (the grind was left to the maker), another part as pointed out by many is that I was able to play a small role in it's design.

 

[Noodle Soup]

Cris, in my former life I constantly did hear from custom knifemakers how I owed them the support to make a living at their chosen occupation. They also felt it was my job to convince (con) the general public they couldn't field dress a deer, survive a night in the woods or cut an onion without a $1000+ blade. Some went as far as to suggest I should pay them to be allowed to write about or photograph their blades. Way too many of them want to make what they want to make and the public should just suck it up and buy it at their price. After all they need that money to keep doing what they want to do. My point is if you really want to do this you need to find a way to produce a product at a price point where there is a demand and a reasonable profit margin. I've been in enough forges to know most knifemakers don't hammer out one blade after another all day long. They would rather you think it takes 2 weeks for every single blade. Sorry, I know better.

 

[malexthekid]

Noodle Soup,

Where did anyone say they hammer one blade after another. There is available economy with grouping together. And your argument is rubbish. Why should we pay you to write or take photographs... or why shoukd we pay $50 for that meal.

If they did what was required to lower the price point you would whinge because they are just making mass products knives where all they do is out the final edge on a machine made knife.

You can't have it boths. You either pay the price for the labor intensive specialty tool. Or you pay less for a more mass produced tool. It is your choice, but it is just wrong to attackb these guys on charging what they set as a price point to make a living (especially when there is a market at that price). Feel free to disclose your current profession because chances are I can use the same argument to make out that you ate overpaid and ripping people off. ( not a personal attack just a true observation, i can, and do, use the same against myself).

 

[malexthekid]

Oh and noodle soup, as for your comment about some exchanges with makers. You unfortunately can't get rid of the arrogant SOBs. They are in every industry.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

Cris, in my former life I constantly did hear from custom knifemakers how I owed them the support to make a living at their chosen occupation. They also felt it was my job to convince (con) the general public they couldn't field dress a deer, survive a night in the woods or cut an onion without a $1000+ blade. Some went as far as to suggest I should pay them to be allowed to write about or photograph their blades. Way too many of them want to make what they want to make and the public should just suck it up and buy it at their price. After all they need that money to keep doing what they want to do. My point is if you really want to do this you need to find a way to produce a product at a price point where there is a demand and a reasonable profit margin. I've been in enough forges to know most knifemakers don't hammer out one blade after another all day long. They would rather you think it takes 2 weeks for every single blade. Sorry, I know better.

I understand. I also don't completely disagree. The custom knife market in MANY areas is pretty skewed. Nick Wheeler is a good friend of mine...and what he gets for a bowie/hunting knife is insane. Dan Sullivan of DSK Tactical is another very good friend. He makes folders that go for $700-$1200 and they sell before they're even made (he doesn't take custom orders anymore). As a matter of fact, Dan auctioned off a custom slot recently. It went for $3800. JUST the slot. I love Dan to death, but his knives wouldn't open a cardboard box. They're HUGELY thick. The edge bevel is thicker than many kitchen knife grinds are over the choil!! If you actually carried one in your pocket you'd need suspenders lol. The fact is, he has a market, and they willingly pay his prices. Oh also, he has another full time job as a respiratory therapist. Nick is also not a full time maker anymore.

Anyway though, that's why some makers I know gravitated to the custom kitchen knife market. To have a customer USE your knife 8-12hrs a day...day after day after day after day...that's a testament to your abilities. You're contributing to the quality of someone else's life. That is INVALUABLE...hopefully to both parties. Same goes for the custom razor market. These are tools people use every day of their lives!! That in itself is its own reward, and Devin is right to say that if it could be done for free...by many makers, it would.

On the knives taking two weeks thing...I just asked a custom bladesmith friend of mine's log book information for his last three knives.

205mm gyuto, 50hrs
200mm gyuto, 33hrs
270mm gyuto, 28.5hrs

No one said two weeks, though those hours may in fact be spread over two weeks, or two months depending. Often more than one knife is being made at once...but the total hours are the total hours.

 

[Eric]

Look ther are knives that perform period, regardless of fit and finish. My tanaka and takeda gyutos are my best performers per dollar by far. However some of my knives like my HHH, Raders etc are great knives that are also functional art. There really is no comparison,

 

[easy13]

An issue I have with custom makers is one of delivery of purchased goods and quality of said goods. I have experienced personally and seen on here many instances of people putting up their hard earned money (customers also work hard to make their money, some through multiple jobs, no inheritance money sitting in the bank) and not receiving the product they purchased at the time guaranteed; sometimes having to wait ridiculously long periods with large amounts of money already paid out. Health issues aside, I find this poor commitment to delivering a purchased product bad business an inexcusable. Along with that, of the multiple custom/semi custom knives I have purchased, 3 have come with major flaws that would be noticed with slight attention. I am not including other issues experienced like scratched blades & unfinished handles. Sure, a small time maker cant compete price wise with a Konosuke, shoot, I have $160 Itinomonns that perform equally/better, but when it comes to something like customer service and delivery of quality product there should be equal, even better service provided. This is not applied to all makers out there and I am not applying this to proper "wait list" protocol, but it is a repetitive issue I have experienced and have seen others.

 

[malexthekid]

Easy13 this is a valid complaint. And one that can be levelled at all makers. At least the QC issue. People excuse it at the lower japanese end because you are paying less and it is coming from a market where those flaws don't matter to the majority of their market so QC of those items aren't a priority.

The other complaint is one in many industry of poor business skill. The best engineer doesn't make the best manager of director of an engineering firm. Just like the best knife maker doesn't make the best knife making business/customer.

It is an unfortunate part of the human psyche that it seems the default for the gifted doers is to over promise and under deliver.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

It is an unfortunate part of the human psyche that it seems the default for the gifted doers is to over promise and under deliver.

This is CLASSIC...and unfortunately accurate more often than not when it comes to delivery times...even for the best of the makers. It's definitely NOT excusable...but unfortunately it's a reality.

 

[oldcookie]

Putting on my business hat for a bit.

Some common pricing strategies.

1. Cost plus pricing: which is we are talking about when we talk about hours, material, etc. These generally works with contracts, one-off purchased, etc. It good of the seller cause it straight forward, but doesn't really take the consumer's value system into account. For a consumer, if they can get a product they think is similar at half the price, they would, because cost is not their concern. This is effectively what people are talking about when they talk about price-performance ratio. If a custom maker choose this pricing strategy and market their products accordingly, it will invite the type of arguments we see in the thread.

2. Market pricing: Which is when the product is priced based on competitors offering and pricing, e.g. pricing based on what Japanese knives cost. If one can't make money with at market price, one either get out of the market or differentiate by making something significantly different, for a different market segment, so it's hard to do direct comparison.

3. Value based pricing: Set price based on the value created for the customer. This works only if the value you create for the customer exceeds the price they are being charged. A knife cut things, so there needs to be other intangible values created to justify this, like scarcity, pride, identity, etc. This is where Kramer is probably.

Due to the difference in level of demand, buyers buying customs with expectation of cost/market based pricing will likely be disappointed. That's the nature of the market. Buyers who buys based on the other added values, and understand what those values are to them will be happy.

This whole thread seems to indicate a mismatch between what the buyers think they are buying, and what the makers think they are selling.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

Putting on my business hat for a bit.

Some common pricing strategies.

1. Cost plus pricing: which is we are talking about when we talk about hours, material, etc. These generally works with contracts, one-off purchased, etc. It good of the seller cause it straight forward, but doesn't really take the consumer's value system into account. For a consumer, if they can get a product they think is similar at half the price, they would, because cost is not their concern. This is effectively what people are talking about when they talk about price-performance ratio. If a custom maker choose this pricing strategy and market their products accordingly, it will invite the type of arguments we see in the thread.

2. Market pricing: Which is when the product is priced based on competitors offering and pricing, e.g. pricing based on what Japanese knives cost. If one can't make money with at market price, one either get out of the market or differentiate by making something significantly different, for a different market segment, so it's hard to do direct comparison.

3. Value based pricing: Set price based on the value created for the customer. This works only if the value you create for the customer exceeds the price they are being charged. A knife cut things, so there needs to be other intangible values created to justify this, like scarcity, pride, identity, etc. This is where Kramer is probably.

Due to the difference in level of demand, buyers buying customs with expectation of cost/market based pricing will likely be disappointed. That's the nature of the market. Buyers who buys based on the other added values, and understand what those values are to them will be happy.

This whole thread seems to indicate a mismatch between what the buyers think they are buying, and what the makers think they are selling.

This could be. It's tough to say honestly. I mean the simple answer is a kitchen knife :biggrin:. Honestly though, I think most of the makers at the level we have been discussing are selling one of three things (and on rarer occasions, some or all of the above) in no particular order. The first being performance, the second being aesthetics, the third being the experience of ordering from a custom maker and having an input in the design of the knife. The greater theme behind them all though, should be customer satisfaction. For many of these makers, I think it is. Some customers are content with a beautiful knife that was 'made for them' that wouldn't cut a banana. Others might be happy with a wonderfully performing knife that was simply different than everyone else's. Still others yet might be happy with a knife that didn't quite top either of the other two charts...but that they had an absolute hand in the design of. I think the best experiences...and the one that many customers believe they are getting with any custom purchase...is a mix of all three. To me, it's what they SHOULD get. The fact is though that that isn't always the case...which makes for the mismatch/discrepancy you mentioned.

A bladesmith I know was recently contacted by someone to ask about a knife that had ordered from another prominent maker. The maker was working outside of his comfort zone, and the result was a genuine failure on more than one account (the handle was STUNNING). My friend urged the person to not accept the knife in any way...there was no way it would be a viable blade. He was told that the maker had offered a money back guarantee and that he was going to accept the blade. My friend still urged him not to...because to anyone with experience in that type knife there was no way the blade was going to work out, and in his mind he believed the maker should have known that himself, so why allow the blade out of the shop at all? He accepted it anyhow, and yes, the knife was a failure...and I'm happy to say the maker honored his money back guarantee. He truly was simply out of his comfort zone and had no way of knowing for sure that the knife had failed. That's the kind of thing that should be the norm in these situations. That's the kind of experience (well, hopefully with a better initial outcome lol) that should be had if a situation doesn't work out between a maker and customer. I do know that unfortunately that's not always the case, which is another sore point with me in regards to western customs...and again touches on the mismatch between a customer's expectations and a maker's expectations.

 

[oldcookie]

Cris, I think you just pointed out another difference. In a production knife, the parameters are relatively well known. In a custom, often, there are experimental parameters, and sometimes no one know how things are really going to turn out.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

Cris, I think you just pointed out another difference. In a production knife, the parameters are relatively well known. In a custom, often, there are experimental parameters, and sometimes no one know how things are really going to turn out.

This is very, very true....with both eastern and western smiths. I've seen threads where people have tried to dictate specifics to Japanese smiths, and the answer they receive is 'Yes, yes! We do this!'...and the knife they get is usually just a shelf knife with a different handle (if that) lol. For western smiths, it's usually not a lot different. 'Oh yeah, I can do that!'. Generally there is at least something of an attempt to meet the demands of the customer, but often (again, particularly if the knife style or grind is out of the maker's area of comfort), the results aren't any better from the customer's viewpoint.

 

[Adrian]

The debate here is in some ways peculiar. Prices for custom knives, by and large, must be affected by the price of a high-end artisan Japanese knife or a good commercially made manufactured knife. This will tend to put a ceiling on the value many buyers perceive from custom makers. Buyers who seek art will have a different price point and they may perhaps sacrifice functionality for the sake of the art.

The peculiarity to me, as a businessman, is that custom knife makers seem to be in a bind when it comes to pricing. Very often, good makers have a waiting list that stretches out for months or even years. This suggests that demand greatly exceeds their ability to supply. It also suggests that they could charge more. Some sales would then fall away, but they would make more money from fewer knives. Price elasticity may be required to recover demand at some point and this can be a risky game to play for the small business. They could of course seek to adopt a more efficient business model, where some work is undertaken by apprentices or paid skilled staff, and the artisan concentrates on the elements that add most value – of which one is definitely dealing directly with the customers.

I like making things too – but I would not dream of doing it for a living. For me the real “business” problem with custom knife making is that it is not scalable and the business does not acquire capital value either. The craftsman is selling his skills attached to his name: and when he stops work, his business is over and all that is left if the residual value of used machinery. Thus this field presumably attracts people who enjoy making knives, but who are not necessarily interested in making a lot of money.

Probably cheffing is much the same. Some superstar chefs manage to leverage their brand with multiple restaurants, TV deals, books etc. The vast majority don’t though. I see it as quite similar to knife making in that sense.

Devin’s post was salutary and his points well made. I respect artisan knife makers for their craft and I admire their skill and artistry when they deliver that craft well. I wish I had that skill but I lack both talent and time sadly. Despite respecting their skill, in my case I am rarely willing to pay a premium price for a custom product, as for me function (at a given level of excellence) is what I value most. This will be the case for the vast majority of people as, this forum aside, most of the population buy knives as tools of necessity and do not attribute much special value to them.

All this said, I am glad that there are people out there who are willing ad able to make custom knives. It adds to the variety available to us and it sustains a craft into the future. Society has lost too many creative skills as so many of us stare at screens, clicking keys or fondling our smartphones. :running:

 

[CrisAnderson27]

You make some interesting points my friend.

The debate here is in some ways peculiar. Prices for custom knives, by and large, must be affected by the price of a high-end artisan Japanese knife or a good commercially made manufactured knife. This will tend to put a ceiling on the value many buyers perceive from custom makers. Buyers who seek art will have a different price point and they may perhaps sacrifice functionality for the sake of the art.

Why do you believe the prices are related at all? I actually think they aren't...and if it weren't for a select group of people here who try to tie the two together, they wouldn't be perceived that way by anyone. I know very few US makers who are influenced by the Japanese knives...other than perhaps general profiles and/or handle shapes. For some, this is to their detriment. For others...it's a very big benefit. Often, being influenced by a product already established boxes a person into a way of thinking. It limits them in a way, opening some doors while painting others over in such a way that they are never seen. To me, it's better to come at something fresh, without preconceptions. Focus on it as a problem with a myriad of solutions, and see which solutions you can blend into the most effective answer to the problem. I ask my 8 and 9yr old's opinions on real world issues I face on a regular basis. Not because I believe that they will hold the answer, but because they have NO PRECONCEPTIONS, and will often hold the key to an answer I would never have come to on my own. This has served me in my various careers, as well as in other ways...since they learned to speak.

I guess my point though is that other than for select people in places like this forum, where Japanese knives are the staple and standard that everything else is compared to...most people have no clue what a gyuto even is. For the better educated of that lot, the gold standard Japanese knife is a Shun santoku. I promise you though, thanks to places like Facebook and Instagram, along with Pinterest and other social media centers...they do know what a custom kitchen knife is, and many are even prepared for the price tag that goes along with it. One maker I know, with over a year waiting list...told me most of his customers come from Instagram and Facebook, with only a handful coming from here. Oddly, those customers are still full time food preparation/service professionals of various levels. They apparently don't balk at a $900 250 gyuto either...and value performance as highly or higher than the people complaining about the high pricing of customs on these forums.

The peculiarity to me, as a businessman, is that custom knife makers seem to be in a bind when it comes to pricing. Very often, good makers have a waiting list that stretches out for months or even years. This suggests that demand greatly exceeds their ability to supply. It also suggests that they could charge more. Some sales would then fall away, but they would make more money from fewer knives. Price elasticity may be required to recover demand at some point and this can be a risky game to play for the small business. They could of course seek to adopt a more efficient business model, where some work is undertaken by apprentices or paid skilled staff, and the artisan concentrates on the elements that add most value – of which one is definitely dealing directly with the customers.

Pricing is absolutely a struggle for many makers....particularly initially. Also, and I want you to think about this...overpricing is far better for many of them than underpricing. One can always hold a 'sale'...or give a 'break' to a potential client for whatever reason. But the second you raise your prices based on overhead or demand or ANYTHING else, you're a dirty no good selfish greedy jerk who's just out to take people's money.

Seriously.

I like making things too – but I would not dream of doing it for a living. For me the real “business” problem with custom knife making is that it is not scalable and the business does not acquire capital value either. The craftsman is selling his skills attached to his name: and when he stops work, his business is over and all that is left if the residual value of used machinery. Thus this field presumably attracts people who enjoy making knives, but who are not necessarily interested in making a lot of money.

Probably cheffing is much the same. Some superstar chefs manage to leverage their brand with multiple restaurants, TV deals, books etc. The vast majority don’t though. I see it as quite similar to knife making in that sense.

Don't tell that to Murray Carter . Honestly though...I think it's more scalable than one might think...but on average you're probably right. A maker can always make the choice to do what Murray has. Establish a name, create a small factory environment, and start breaking labor up like the Japanese do...so no one person knows enough to branch off and take your business from you. That's a business that could carry a family name, and have value beyond the bladesmith that started it.

Devin’s post was salutary and his points well made. I respect artisan knife makers for their craft and I admire their skill and artistry when they deliver that craft well. I wish I had that skill but I lack both talent and time sadly. Despite respecting their skill, in my case I am rarely willing to pay a premium price for a custom product, as for me function (at a given level of excellence) is what I value most. This will be the case for the vast majority of people as, this forum aside, most of the population buy knives as tools of necessity and do not attribute much special value to them.

What if you could have a knife that outperformed your Japanese knives?...and looked like a million bucks doing it? In addition, the draw most people (outside these forums as you said) have towards customs is to the appearance of the knife. The outstanding performance comes as a complete and often unexpected side benefit to them. One maker I know recently sold a $1350 (LOTS Of options on the knife) 270 gyuto-hiki to a private person in California as a gift to his girlfriend. When asked what she was going to use it for, the gentleman's reply was 'to cut watermelon, she always complains she doesn't have a knife big enough'. No joke. After a small period of getting used to it, it's become the only knife in the house she uses, and the gentleman signed onto the smith's books to get one for himself.

Again...many people in these forums tend to think of this as being the only world in which custom kitchen knives are popular. It's not. As a matter of fact, surprisingly enough (even to a bladesmith), it's only a smallish facet of their customer base. Perhaps 30%. Chefs from all over the world have never even heard of this place, and yet they are still all over the internet looking for things that catch their attention...and that doesn't even take into account the home users.

Please do not misunderstand that comment. I'm not belittling the role places like this play in the custom knife world. Places like this one and the people ordering knives on them are INVALUABLE to a smith truly looking to improve his work. This assumes though that he receives HONEST FEEDBACK, both positive and negative, and is REQUIRED to do that work to your satisfaction! The custom kitchen knife world is definitely large beyond these forums...but you guys absolutely have the power to steer it, if you just took advantage of it. If you spend $1k on a 'pretty' custom that won't cut butter, and told the gentleman making it you wanted a knife that could cut butter...TEACH HIM how to make a knife that cuts butter by forcing him to give you what you paid for!! If you do not, the fault is your own. We teach people how to treat us, truly. The more you do this, the more value your purchase money has, and the more value future purchases will have as well...because later you might want a knife that cuts butternut squash, and if he's had enough time in between with other outspoken and educational customers like you, he'll have it down to a science by the time you make your next order.

All this said, I am glad that there are people out there who are willing ad able to make custom knives. It adds to the variety available to us and it sustains a craft into the future. Society has lost too many creative skills as so many of us stare at screens, clicking keys or fondling our smartphones. :running:

Me too!!

 

[Adrian]

Cris

I am at work now (it is almost 7am here in the UK) and so will be brief.

I don't necessarily see Japanese and western knives as having a price relationship, I am simply arguing that the educated or aware buyer is likely to draw value comparisons. Forums such as this one tend to encourage that. if a Shigefusa is aspirational for many, they may perceive little additional value in a US custom at three times the price. In any event, custom knife makers, Murray Carter excepted) seem to operate in a fairly similar price bubble. It makes me think they look at each other and price their wares based on what they perceive as competition. This is appropriate in a commodity market, but artisan knife makers should surely seek more differentiation than that?

Murray Carter is one of few artisan knife craftsman who has leveraged his name as a brand, with both commercial spin offs and second tier lines. Others have said he was in the right place at the right time and this cannot be replicated now. I don't know. I have met a grand total of three artisan western knife makers in the ten years or so that I have been buying knives of this ilk (and several more Japanese). I have yet to meet a western maker who knows how to run a truly profitable business as well as make knives. Perfectionism costs money and some artisans value their craft (and hence devote time to it) more than the customer does. This reduces profitability.

My point about pricing is simple. I have heard craftsmen in this field and others (guitars) bemoan their long waiting list and the effort required to meet custom orders. Generally they are selling too cheaply but resist testing that by putting prices up to test the market harder.

As regards my Japanese knives - I would happily buy a knife that out performs them. I am not that bothered by the knives actually - I am just interested in the culture of Japan and this extends across other fields, including especially garden design. Most of my knives I have bought in my various travels in Japan, just because I was interested in the maker or the market.

I have listened to a few people say "send it back" (a variant on the teach him how to make a knife that cuts butter point you made) - but I doubt I would bother. There are three reasons: there is a limit to how much time I am willing to spend; I have residual concern that the maker is losing money by accommodating my whims (this is irrational but it factors in to dealing with craftsmen, as it can feel a bit exploitative); and finally I can just sell the knife and move on.

The thread is philosophically interesting as it explores why some people value custom knives so much. There is probably a cultural element as the highly figured damascus (as opposed to basic damascus) and the fetish for fancy handles was almost entirely unknown to me until I happened across this forum. I have never really seen it in Europe and, other than a few fancy show knives in a few shops, very little in Japan. Perhaps it is mainly an American phenomenon.

Adrian

 

[aboynamedsuita]

I find Japanese vs American pricing comparable.

For a 240ish gyuto-esque knife from a custom maker at say $3.00/mm would be $720USD. I recently ordered (from Japan) a 240mm Honyaki mirror polished gyuto with friction fit saya and standard Hō wood handle. The cost excluding the (custom) handle was ¥107,000JPY (roughly $890USD based on the current exchange rate).

From past readings and lurkings, I know there is a custom maker who can make Honyaki and priced similarly to the former quote, which is much less than the latter. I'm also going to pay ~$200 for a custom handle, whereas I could have gotten some standard upgrade choices with the custom maker (although you could easily go all out with handles for either choice at an additional cost).

When all is considered, I don't the prices aren't unreasonable. If people do find them unreasonable, don't buy them because someone else will; either to use or to admire. I see elements of fit to use and fit to purpose in this regard.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

Cris

I am at work now (it is almost 7am here in the UK) and so will be brief.

I don't necessarily see Japanese and western knives as having a price relationship, I am simply arguing that the educated or aware buyer is likely to draw value comparisons. Forums such as this one tend to encourage that. if a Shigefusa is aspirational for many, they may perceive little additional value in a US custom at three times the price. In any event, custom knife makers, Murray Carter excepted) seem to operate in a fairly similar price bubble. It makes me think they look at each other and price their wares based on what they perceive as competition. This is appropriate in a commodity market, but artisan knife makers should surely seek more differentiation than that?

Murray Carter is one of few artisan knife craftsman who has leveraged his name as a brand, with both commercial spin offs and second tier lines. Others have said he was in the right place at the right time and this cannot be replicated now. I don't know. I have met a grand total of three artisan western knife makers in the ten years or so that I have been buying knives of this ilk (and several more Japanese). I have yet to meet a western maker who knows how to run a truly profitable business as well as make knives. Perfectionism costs money and some artisans value their craft (and hence devote time to it) more than the customer does. This reduces profitability.

My point about pricing is simple. I have heard craftsmen in this field and others (guitars) bemoan their long waiting list and the effort required to meet custom orders. Generally they are selling too cheaply but resist testing that by putting prices up to test the market harder.

As regards my Japanese knives - I would happily buy a knife that out performs them. I am not that bothered by the knives actually - I am just interested in the culture of Japan and this extends across other fields, including especially garden design. Most of my knives I have bought in my various travels in Japan, just because I was interested in the maker or the market.

I have listened to a few people say "send it back" (a variant on the teach him how to make a knife that cuts butter point you made) - but I doubt I would bother. There are three reasons: there is a limit to how much time I am willing to spend; I have residual concern that the maker is losing money by accommodating my whims (this is irrational but it factors in to dealing with craftsmen, as it can feel a bit exploitative); and finally I can just sell the knife and move on.

The thread is philosophically interesting as it explores why some people value custom knives so much. There is probably a cultural element as the highly figured damascus (as opposed to basic damascus) and the fetish for fancy handles was almost entirely unknown to me until I happened across this forum. I have never really seen it in Europe and, other than a few fancy show knives in a few shops, very little in Japan. Perhaps it is mainly an American phenomenon.

Adrian

I understand, and I agree. On the 'send it back' thing...you literally echoed a good friend of mine that I was telling the same thing I said to you last night. He pretty much word for word quoted your response lol...before you said it.

I find Japanese vs American pricing comparable.

For a 240ish gyuto-esque knife from a custom maker at say $3.00/mm would be $720USD. I recently ordered (from Japan) a 240mm Honyaki mirror polished gyuto with friction fit saya and standard Hō wood handle. The cost excluding the (custom) handle was ¥107,000JPY (roughly $890USD based on the current exchange rate).

From past readings and lurkings, I know there is a custom maker who can make Honyaki and priced similarly to the former quote, which is much less than the latter. I'm also going to pay ~$200 for a custom handle, whereas I could have gotten some standard upgrade choices with the custom maker (although you could easily go all out with handles for either choice at an additional cost).

When all is considered, I don't the prices aren't unreasonable. If people do find them unreasonable, don't buy them because someone else will; either to use or to admire. I see elements of fit to use and fit to purpose in this regard.

I know one smith (maybe the same guy?) who's pricing on a 240 honyaki gyuto is $3.50/mm, including a full on custom octagonal wa handle with any of the standard price stabilized burl woods. Add a tooled leather saya and it's $3.90/mm. He's not taking orders anymore, but the pricing was my point. Total with saya and custom wa handle comes to $936. His upgraded handles run $50-$75 for different profiles, and $50-$75 for upgraded materials (the $100 a block plus stuff and exotic spacer materials)...so they'd still fall within your $200 additional mark and be comparable.

I was going to bring up some shelf type honyaki knives I've seen from Japan that were in the $2k range...but I couldn't remember the name, so I didn't.

 

[sharptools]

I think saying "custom" doesn't necessarily equate to performance isn't really the right way to look at it.

What some have an issue with are a couple of things

1. A more expensive knife doesn't necessarily mean better performance.

2. It is perceived that people equate things like F&F to performance.

3. Comparisons seem to be made with the upfront cost of a custom/semi vs stock and any additional time/effort (thinning, rehandling, polishing spine/choil, reprofiling) to the stock knife isn't added back to the upfront cost.

I think that the "custom myth" referred to in this thread really is because of 1. This applies to pretty much all things when generalized. Is an Apple laptop better than a Lenovo? People willing to pay for an Apple laptop and are happy with it and people who don't want to pay for an Apple will be happy with a Lenovo. People probably don't necessarily equate bling and F&F to performance but to value which easily gets generalized into "better". To each group, what they like IS better to them.

 

[user 1925]

Some people value performance.

Some people value the art & craft.

Some people value both.

I am the latter.

I used to own dozens of production knives, most stamped and with high quality steel/heat treats. Absolutely nothing wrong with them and they represent good performance for the money. However, there are aspects of say a custom knife by certain makers that really elevate the knife for me in both use and aesthetics. Seeing as I use my knives I would rather have 1 custom gyuto/chef's that works like an extension of my hand than 5 or 10 mass produced knives. Again, personal preference, but my philosophy has always been quality over quantity. For those who feel the same but are on tight budgets, a mass produced Misono, Masamoto or whatever will do anything you ever need to do in practical terms.

 

[Asteger]

I think there's a bit of vagueness at the centre of the discussion, at least if I look a bit at the recent posts above. Much Bocho, who started this, didn't completely define the discussion as Japanese vs The Rest, but it did take on those tones (including with me) and MB did contribute to this saying, '... too many knife consumers equate fit and finish with performance. There is this myth that because the knife "has a custom handle and is polished all shiny and is photographed well, it must be a good cutter right ... " .. I've personally been underwhelmed with several custom makers (mostly US) that make super pretty and shiny knives that are middle of the road performers or worse. Just because their using gold leaf, Bog oak, ZDP clad in Damascus that are thin behind the edge and thick on the spine'

I guess by definition, 'custom' makers can live anywhere, including Japan. They're merely people who take custom orders. 'Not-custom' doesn't necessarily mean 'mass-produced'

 

[CrisAnderson27]

Some people value performance.

Some people value the art & craft.

Some people value both.

I am the latter.

I used to own dozens of production knives, most stamped and with high quality steel/heat treats. Absolutely nothing wrong with them and they represent good performance for the money. However, there are aspects of say a custom knife by certain makers that really elevate the knife for me in both use and aesthetics. Seeing as I use my knives I would rather have 1 custom gyuto/chef's that works like an extension of my hand than 5 or 10 mass produced knives. Again, personal preference, but my philosophy has always been quality over quantity. For those who feel the same but are on tight budgets, a mass produced Misono, Masamoto or whatever will do anything you ever need to do in practical terms.

I think there's a bit of vagueness at the centre of the discussion, at least if I look a bit at the recent posts above. Much Bocho, who started this, didn't completely define the discussion as Japanese vs The Rest, but it did take on those tones (including with me) and MB did contribute to this saying, '... too many knife consumers equate fit and finish with performance. There is this myth that because the knife "has a custom handle and is polished all shiny and is photographed well, it must be a good cutter right ... " .. I've personally been underwhelmed with several custom makers (mostly US) that make super pretty and shiny knives that are middle of the road performers or worse. Just because their using gold leaf, Bog oak, ZDP clad in Damascus that are thin behind the edge and thick on the spine'

I guess by definition, 'custom' makers can live anywhere, including Japan. They're merely people who take custom orders. 'Not-custom' doesn't necessarily mean 'mass-produced'

These are interesting points. Both of them. I think the frustration for me lies in the very generalized implication in this thread (as well as on the forum in general for the most part) that expensive high end custom knives...particularly those of US origin, but including other countries of origin as well...can't be or aren't high performance knives also. I would love to hear Anton's more 'in depth' thoughts on how the US and Australian knives he mentioned compare...without going into who the makers are. I think it's best if we keep that aspect of the conversation very general.

I know many of the well known and sought after US makers of the level we're discussing here don't make high performance knives...but that is not the case across the board by any stretch. Though I have never handled one, my understanding is that Devin's knives alone prove that.

 

[WildBoar]

Funny thing is people on the forums have been complaining about several Japanese makers whose 'stock' knives have issues such as overgrinds, too thick behind edge, etc. And many have mentioned buying through Jon or Maxsim, as they will 'screen' the knives before sending to 'make sure you get a good one'. So why is that needed if the production knives are okay? To me that says you may just wind up with a production knife that has issues you still need to deal with. Some issues may effect it being a superior cutter; heck, the production Hiromotos I have stunk out of the box, and needed good workovers by Dave Martell before they even equaled a Shun gyuto. And some issues -- like overgrinds -- may mean while it cuts well now it will be useless a year or two down the road. I personally think many stock/ production Japanese knives will be great performers, but expect to get frustrated with some of them due to the production issues.

 

[chefcomesback]

Funny thing is people on the forums have been complaining about several Japanese makers whose 'stock' knives have issues such as overgrinds, too thick behind edge, etc. And many have mentioned buying through Jon or Maxsim, as they will 'screen' the knives before sending to 'make sure you get a good one'. So why is that needed if the production knives are okay? To me that says you may just wind up with a production knife that has issues you still need to deal with. Some issues may effect it being a superior cutter; heck, the production Hiromotos I have stunk out of the box, and needed good workovers by Dave Martell before they even equaled a Shun gyuto. And some issues -- like overgrinds -- may mean while it cuts well now it will be useless a year or two down the road. I personally think many stock/ production Japanese knives will be great performers, but expect to get frustrated with some of them due to the production issues.

Good that you mentioned this because a $400+ gyuto from a japanese maker ( well regarded and seems to be the favorite of some people here ) was THE WORST KNIFE I HAVE USED , period . But again people tend oversee things if it has a history behind the product same way people don't complain about the mediocre performance they get from some customs out there

 

[Smurfmacaw]

"Custom knives suck! My off the shelf knives are so much better! American makers only make pretty handles! And it makes me SOOOOOOO mad that I can't have one because all the richers have driven the prices up!"

The food is terrible and the portions are small.

+1 We are lucky the good custom makers don't charge more for their efforts. Most of the nicer knives I see last mere minutes before being sold. Seriously, if someone doesn't think a knife is worth it then don't buy it and don't beech.

 

[mkriggen]

I probably should stay out of this, but making custom handles for the last couple of years has made me appreciate how reasonable the prices are from the quality custom knife makers. Many people probably don't understand why a custom handle should cost $200, and they would be correct. A handle I sell for $200 should actually cost about $400 if I were to account for all the time. But nobody would pay that much, so I charge $200 and just hope to make enough to buy some more cool materials. I don't think any of the custom handle makers actually make a profit, and I know none of them make a living doing it. I'm guessing the situation is similar, but an order of magnitude larger, for most of the custom knife makers. And no, a custom ordered Shig is NOT the same thing as a custom made knife from DT, Cris, Randy, Rader, or any of the other quality makers. A custom ordered Shig may have a different length or altered profile or whatever, but it's still just a variation of a Shig. A custom knife from one of the quality custom makers is just that, a custom knife. Hope this makes some kind of sense.

Be well,
Mikey

 

[Von blewitt]

Here's my most recent expierience with a US custom knife maker.
Last Friday night my time I emailed the maker asking if it might be possible to order a birds beak turning knife, when I woke up Saturday morning I had not only an answer in my inbox, but also a roughed out sketch on a knife blank with options for either 2.5 or 3 Inch.
Back and fourth emails throughout the week including me changing my mind about the length, and selecting handle material.
This morning I recieved a picture of the completed knife, less than 1 week from my first email, and I know from personal expierience with multiple knives from this maker it'll be a solid performer.
Pics in the new knife thread when I recieve it.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

I probably should stay out of this, but making custom handles for the last couple of years has made me appreciate how reasonable the prices are from the quality custom knife makers. Many people probably don't understand why a custom handle should cost $200, and they would be correct. A handle I sell for $200 should actually cost about $400 if I were to account for all the time. But nobody would pay that much, so I charge $200 and just hope to make enough to buy some more cool materials. I don't think any of the custom handle makers actually make a profit, and I know none of them make a living doing it. I'm guessing the situation is similar, but an order of magnitude larger, for most of the custom knife makers. And no, a custom ordered Shig is NOT the same thing as a custom made knife from DT, Cris, Randy, Rader, or any of the other quality makers. A custom ordered Shig may have a different length or altered profile or whatever, but it's still just a variation of a Shig. A custom knife from one of the quality custom makers is just that, a custom knife. Hope this makes some kind of sense.

Be well,
Mikey

Yep some people just like working with their hands and making cool stuff. :bladesmith:

I can't see picking on knife makers most hard to make a living doing it. Branding is the way to make money. Celebrities with their own lines made in China only their name rolling in the $$. Disney realized this early on made many fortunes on branding even though didn't make the stuff.