The Washita Thread

[cotedupy]

The difference between a colored Washita and a soft Ark can be almost impossible to tell apart from a photo. I thought at one time that the colored stones were not Washita's at all. They are different from the vintage ones but they are also different from the soft arks.

Washita, soft, washita, soft.


[url=https://flic.kr/p/2n67bDK]

Of the two reddish coloured stones on the right, I'd be interested to hear if the Washita was notably harder than the soft ark in terms of friability. As I mentioned above; something I associate with Washitas is porosity combined with hardness of structure - like a sponge made out of Hard Arkansas material. My red stripy soft ark is far softer and more friable than any Washita I have, even ones of identical SG.

But I've never had a modern stripy Washita, so it'd be interesting to know if that thinking held true for them too.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

We're at the cutting edge of scientific thinking here on the Washita thread!

Forgive my momentary wandering...

Once upon a lifetime ago, my freshman science teacher was Doug Cooper. Now, to say that school was not a high priority for me at that time would be a gross understatement but I liked and respected Mr. Cooper. My family knew him and he was a volunteer firefighter in my dad's battalion. So, I made an effort to go to his class.

I don't remember the lead in anymore but I remember Mr. Cooper trying to get us to understand how you could tell what a goblet weighed without weighing it, or something like that. Twenty-odd, mostly pre-cable, let alone internet, 14 year olds, wracked our brains but clearly gave incorrect answers. So Mr. Cooper asked what happens when you sit in a bathtub. Getting wet, warm, clean, etc were not the answers he was looking for and while I don't remember the actual term he used for our lack of mental acuity, I do remember the sentiment. He went on to explain how the water rises, or displaces, and how math can get you a weight.

Now, me and math get along like lions and hyenas and my relationship with school was even worse. So, I managed to scrape out a diploma and join the military.

Fast forward some decades, and as nearly impossible as it would've seemed to anyone back then, I now work in a highly scientific job with some brilliant minds. I'm not one of them. But I found myself as the project leader of a new product that required Archimedes to determine specific gravity and I fondly remembered Mr. Cooper's lesson.

The water rises.

Anyways... Washita stones...

 

[ethompson]

Next time I’m at my parents’ place I’m going stone hunting (Hot Springs general area, got some family and friends with land that could have novaculite deposits). Already got some antique stones heading my way from asking around with some of our older family friends if they had anything in the shed etc. If I ever find anything worthwhile I’ll do a mass drop or host people for a “mine your own” party

seriously though, I never appreciated until a few months ago that I grew up just down the road from a sharpening Mecca.

 

[cotedupy]

Forgive my momentary wandering...

Once upon a lifetime ago, my freshman science teacher was Doug Cooper. Now, to say that school was not a high priority for me at that time would be a gross understatement but I liked and respected Mr. Cooper. My family knew him and he was a volunteer firefighter in my dad's battalion. So, I made an effort to go to his class.

I don't remember the lead in anymore but I remember Mr. Cooper trying to get us to understand how you could tell what a goblet weighed without weighing it, or something like that. Twenty-odd, mostly pre-cable, let alone internet, 14 year olds, wracked our brains but clearly gave incorrect answers. So Mr. Cooper asked what happens when you sit in a bathtub. Getting wet, warm, clean, etc were not the answers he was looking for and while I don't remember the actual term he used for our lack of mental acuity, I do remember the sentiment. He went on to explain how the water rises, or displaces, and how math can get you a weight.

Now, me and math get along like lions and hyenas and my relationship with school was even worse. So, I managed to scrape out a diploma and join the military.

Fast forward some decades, and as nearly impossible as it would've seemed to anyone back then, I now work in a highly scientific job with some brilliant minds. I'm not one of them. But I found myself as the project leader of a new product that required Archimedes to determine specific gravity and I fondly remembered Mr. Cooper's lesson.

The water rises.

Anyways... Washita stones...

Excellent diversion! It reminded me of a physics teacher I once had, who was perhaps a slightly more combatative and less nice version of your Mr. Cooper.

He'd do stuff like - arrive to the class, shout "How many blind Piano Tuners are there in Greater London?", and then sod off for a cup of coffee in the staff room. Returning only for the final ten minutes to tell us how we were all idiots who couldn’t think straight, and bark “What garbage!” “UTTER ROT!” a few times.

Nevertheless I rather liked him. Though it was so well known that he didn’t touch even on the fringes of the curriculum, that our class had to have a second physics teacher to take half the lessons, and actually get us through the exams.

 

[BoSharpens]

If all the above isn't confusing, I don't know what confusion is.

I simply use what stones I've collected over decades and they sharpen or hone ... or not.

It is very interesting to me all the types of natural stones and comments on use, but I've got to get the work out ... so ... back to work.

 

[Desert Rat]

Of the two reddish coloured stones on the right, I'd be interested to hear if the Washita was notably harder than the soft ark in terms of friability. As I mentioned above; something I associate with Washitas is porosity combined with hardness of structure - like a sponge made out of Hard Arkansas material. My red stripy soft ark is far softer and more friable than any Washita I have, even ones of identical SG.

But I've never had a modern stripy Washita, so it'd be interesting to know if that thinking held true for them too.

The Washita is friable the soft ark not so much. Soft arks are very good at glazing over compared to Washita's. The feedback on the soft is softer than the Washita but the Washita is more friable.

I suspect you are going to tell me that is how your soft is?

 

[Desert Rat]

Forgive my momentary wandering...

Once upon a lifetime ago, my freshman science teacher was Doug Cooper. Now, to say that school was not a high priority for me at that time would be a gross understatement but I liked and respected Mr. Cooper. My family knew him and he was a volunteer firefighter in my dad's battalion. So, I made an effort to go to his class.

I don't remember the lead in anymore but I remember Mr. Cooper trying to get us to understand how you could tell what a goblet weighed without weighing it, or something like that. Twenty-odd, mostly pre-cable, let alone internet, 14 year olds, wracked our brains but clearly gave incorrect answers. So Mr. Cooper asked what happens when you sit in a bathtub. Getting wet, warm, clean, etc were not the answers he was looking for and while I don't remember the actual term he used for our lack of mental acuity, I do remember the sentiment. He went on to explain how the water rises, or displaces, and how math can get you a weight.

Now, me and math get along like lions and hyenas and my relationship with school was even worse. So, I managed to scrape out a diploma and join the military.

Fast forward some decades, and as nearly impossible as it would've seemed to anyone back then, I now work in a highly scientific job with some brilliant minds. I'm not one of them. But I found myself as the project leader of a new product that required Archimedes to determine specific gravity and I fondly remembered Mr. Cooper's lesson.

The water rises.

Anyways... Washita stones...

Lab tech?

 

[VICTOR J CREAZZI]

The Washita is friable the soft ark not so much. Soft arks are very good at glazing over compared to Washita's. The feedback on the soft is softer than the Washita but the Washita is more friable.

I suspect you are going to tell me that is how your soft is?

I just about have myself convinced that my washita is a washita and now you describe them as friable. I wouldn't describe my stone as friable at all.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Lab tech?

Manufacturing Engineering Tech and Project Manager.

 

[Desert Rat]

I just about have myself convinced that my washita is a washita and now you describe them as friable. I wouldn't describe my stone as friable at all.

It's all relative and I'm comparing it to the soft ark.

I think most of the confusion is because the manufactures have been mixing the stones up for a long time now. Washita's tagged as soft Arks (thanks Norton) and more recently even softs tagged as Washita's and that's before we bring in the colored Washita.

The colored Washita shares the splotchy pattern that is prevalent in many of the old Washita's. It's an identifier that the soft doesn't have. I think the only way to tell them apart for most is experience by handling enough examples of all kinds.

I thought I could help others sort it out but I have failed.

Carry on.......

 

[cotedupy]

.

 

[cotedupy]

The Washita is friable the soft ark not so much. Soft arks are very good at glazing over compared to Washita's. The feedback on the soft is softer than the Washita but the Washita is more friable.

I suspect you are going to tell me that is how your soft is?

Yep! My coloured soft is quite friable with a slightly sandy feel. It's pretty quick, certainly comparable to a fast P-N Washita, though can't be made to finish as fine because it's not as hard.. My Norton Soft is very different; much slower, less friable, and feels like a very glazed Washita even to begin with. They also have very different SGs, which I'll post below.

In use the coloured stone acts more similarly to a P-N Washita, though the Norton Soft looks more like one, and I certainly prefer the coloured one even though I imagine it's quite a cheap stone. In my mind (and seems to be confirmed by what you've said) my coloured 'soft' is the kind of Calico stone that some companies sell as Washitas.

It's all relative and I'm comparing it to the soft ark.

I think most of the confusion is because the manufactures have been mixing the stones up for a long time now. Washita's tagged as soft Arks (thanks Norton) and more recently even softs tagged as Washita's and that's before we bring in the colored Washita.

The colored Washita shares the splotchy pattern that is prevalent in many of the old Washita's. It's an identifier that the soft doesn't have. I think the only way to tell them apart for most is experience by handling enough examples of all kinds.

I thought I could help others sort it out but I have failed.

Carry on.......

You know all these US stones far better than I do, but FWIW - this is basically exactly the conclusions I've come to.

It's probably a little reductive to try to draw very hard definitions and distinctions between stones that are all effectively the same thing and exist on spectrums of porosity and hardness. There's so much in Griswold about this kind of thing, and the massive variation in Ouachita stones anyway.

Frankly I think anyone should call the stones whatever they fancy, as you say - the companies all did. And other companies have every bit as much right to call a stone a 'Washita' as P-N did.

---

@VICTOR J CREAZZI - If you don't have one, would you like an old P-N Washita sometime, so you have something to compare...?

For a variety of reasons they're far, far more common to come across in Aus and the UK than they are in the US. I'm probably going to keep all the ones I have atm, but I find them often, so will have more to move on at some point, and can give you a shout if you'd like? Also shipping to the US from Aus isn't all that bad.

 

[captaincaed]

Not a looker!? Take that back! She's beautiful. And also looks like she'll have some of that mottled oil appearance I mentioned above.

If ever you want to sell or swap it, you know where to come .

 

[cotedupy]

Excluding Washitas I only have a handful of 'Arkansas' stones, so this isn't a particularly exhaustive example, but there are a couple of interesting things to see.

Norton Soft Arkansas - 2.47
Norton Hard (Translucent) Arkansas - 2.62
Norton Hard (Black) Arkansas - 2.66
Natural Hones Co. Soft Arkansas - 2.14

Well the first thing that jumps out at you here is wild difference between the two Soft Arks, though having used them it doesn't surprise me - the stones very different beasts. For reference; the Natural Stones Soft has an SG that would be pretty low for a P-N Washita, while the Norton Soft probably exceeds the high end of their range. One of the reasons I've stopped trying to strongly define Washitas and Soft Arks is because these two stones are more different from each other, both in use and SG, than each of them is from a P-N Washita.

The Hard Ark SGs did surprise me though - that Black reading is very high. I'd never much bought into the idea that the finest Black Arks were finer than Translucents, to me these stones are indistinguishable in use. But the SGs are probably different enough that a more expert razor-person I imagine could tell that the black was marginally finer.

It also highlights something that I've said elsewhere - SG readings are useless you're comparing two stones of the exact same type. The SG reading of the translucent would be at the lower end of Turkish Oilstones, which probably average around 2.63, but no Turkish is as fine as a translucent ark. SG comparisons even between two novaculites are pretty meaningless as a gauge for how fine a stone is, unless they are the same type. Because there are all sorts of other factors involved as well as density.

 

[ables]

Hello thread. I have a few washita stones too, they are by far my favorite knife stone. To my hands nothing beats the perfect steel ripping friction on a fresh washita for most blades.

Here are a few of mine. Norton LW and a once dirty stone I degreased which is a bit bigger and faster. The bigger one is used most in my house and shreds knife steel.

This one below was a "Keen Kutter Lily White Grit" and is almost identical to the norton in feel and dimensions.

 

[ables]

@Desert Rat I have been wondering about the small slurry stone. It is wider than the thuri and completely a different colour.

@SirCutAlot I have got a nice edge on a W2 knife with the thuri but definitely quite hard. I want to have a play with some chisels and plane blades at some stage.
View attachment 164349View attachment 164351View attachment 164352

The large black slate looks to have been cut down at different times as there is 3 types of cut marks on it, I'm thinking it's been around for a while. It seems harder than the thuri but I need to have some more play time with it. I need some scissor finishing stones so these are all going into the collection.
View attachment 164345View attachment 164346View attachment 164347View attachment 164348
I'm hoping to get some washita's soon! (might be SiC though)

Im not sure if you figured it out, but I am 95% certain that the small slurry stone you have here is a Frictionite barber hone "rubber stone" for cleaning/refreshing the stone. Or atleast an American hone company rubber stone. Here is mine I got out of a barber mixed lot.


It actually is a fantastic slurry stone and works great on softer stones such as coticule/thurigan which don't have a matching stone. In the barbers lot I got thats what the old barber used it for as it was covered in coti slurry. It doesn't seem to spit harmful grit and will work up a slurry decently quick.

 

[bsfsu]

Im not sure if you figured it out, but I am 95% certain that the small slurry stone you have here is a Frictionite barber hone "rubber stone" for cleaning/refreshing the stone. Or atleast an American hone company rubber stone. Here is mine I got out of a barber mixed lot.
View attachment 168241View attachment 168242

It actually is a fantastic slurry stone and works great on softer stones such as coticule/thurigan which don't have a matching stone. In the barbers lot I got thats what the old barber used it for as it was covered in coti slurry. It doesn't seem to spit harmful grit and will work up a slurry decently quick.

That looks exactly like mine! Thanks @ables. It does make a nice slurry on naturals.

 

[rocketman]

So today, I dug around in the shop, and exposed three Norton 313 sharpening stone sets.. These are the ones 11.5" long, with three stones involved.
I do not remember where the stones came from, but instead of the normal 1/2" thickness, I have three 1" thick stones...The other two tri hones are normal
India, and crystalon stones I actually cleaned them up, as all of the c

lean stones y

ou guys are showing are embarrassing me.

Arkansas images enclosed.

 

[Desert Rat]

So today, I dug around in the shop, and exposed three Norton 313 sharpening stone sets.. These are the ones 11.5" long, with three stones involved.
I do not remember where the stones came from, but instead of the normal 1/2" thickness, I have three 1" thick stones...The other two tri hones are normal
India, and crystalon stones I actually cleaned them up, as all of the cView attachment 168348lean stones yView attachment 168347ou guys are showing are embarrassing me. View attachment 168349 Arkansas images enclosed.

Those are some impressive arks. I would love to have a go on them.

 

[captaincaed]

I keep hunting for those tri hones with Arks but they're not common. Great looking bit of kit!

I was lucky enough to find an NOS black Ark, Queer Creek and mystery natural in a used tool shop today. Curious to see if the queer creek is any good at polishing/kasumi

 

[deltaplex]

I keep hunting for those tri hones with Arks but they're not common. Great looking bit of kit!

I was lucky enough to find an NOS black Ark, Queer Creek and mystery natural in a used tool shop today. Curious to see if the queer creek is any good at polishing/kasumi
View attachment 168688

Since it's sandstone, like the hindos, I would think it wouldn't be half bad for polishing. Whenever I end up with one, that's what I plan on using it for.

 

[cotedupy]

Im not sure if you figured it out, but I am 95% certain that the small slurry stone you have here is a Frictionite barber hone "rubber stone" for cleaning/refreshing the stone. Or atleast an American hone company rubber stone. Here is mine I got out of a barber mixed lot.
View attachment 168241View attachment 168242

It actually is a fantastic slurry stone and works great on softer stones such as coticule/thurigan which don't have a matching stone. In the barbers lot I got thats what the old barber used it for as it was covered in coti slurry. It doesn't seem to spit harmful grit and will work up a slurry decently quick.

This is interesting. Would I be able to use a regular BH in the same manner? Or is this different material?

 

[ables]

I keep hunting for those tri hones with Arks but they're not common. Great looking bit of kit!

I was lucky enough to find an NOS black Ark, Queer Creek and mystery natural in a used tool shop today. Curious to see if the queer creek is any good at polishing/kasumi
View attachment 168688

Nice stones, I have an old queer creek that I like alot. It functions so much like a 1-1.5k waterstone for me it it is shocking. Kind of a harder king stone! It self slurrys some and the slurry feels like grains of sand rolling around which is cool. It can get glazed but a quick rub on a dmt brings it back to life quick.

 

[ables]

This is interesting. Would I be able to use a regular BH in the same manner? Or is this different material?

If I had to guess this is a little piece of ceramic. I think most barber hones were some variation on fired ceramic stone. I assume the masterminds at American Hone Company made the little stone purposeful to work with the Frictionite. In the Frictionite instructions it says a normal person would never even need this rubber stone since 500! or something razors could be honed before needed haha.

As for using this stone on other naturals to make slurry, its not much different than using a diamond plate or a hard arkansas. I have a 4x1 hard norton hard arkansas with one side roughed up that I've used as a slurry stone many times if I dont have a matching stone. Works fine and hard arkansas stones laugh at most other rocks.

 

[cotedupy]

If I had to guess this is a little piece of ceramic. I think most barber hones were some variation on fired ceramic stone. I assume the masterminds at American Hone Company made the little stone purposeful to work with the Frictionite. In the Frictionite instructions it says a normal person would never even need this rubber stone since 500! or something razors could be honed before needed haha.

As for using this stone on other naturals to make slurry, its not much different than using a diamond plate or a hard arkansas. I have a 4x1 hard norton hard arkansas with one side roughed up that I've used as a slurry stone many times if I dont have a matching stone. Works fine and hard arkansas stones laugh at most other rocks.

Ah that's another interesting idea that I hadn't thought of! I have a couple of old Norton Hards; a 4x2 translucent and 5x2 black, which might work well. As you say - the fineness, and hardness / lack of friability presumably makes them very good for this.

My atoma combi is 140 x 400, and even the latter I find can leave some wayward scratches on harder stones.

 

[Greasylake]

Just got this stone in the mail, not too sure what it is yet but I'm guessing some sort of Arkansas. It feels pretty fine but has some parts that feel rougher, so not sure what that's about. It also smells like gun oil, I'll report back after some time in the degreaser.

 

[cotedupy]

Just got this stone in the mail, not too sure what it is yet but I'm guessing some sort of Arkansas. It feels pretty fine but has some parts that feel rougher, so not sure what that's about. It also smells like gun oil, I'll report back after some time in the degreaser.
View attachment 169000View attachment 169001View attachment 169002

Looks like a soft ark from here. Useful little stone I imagine .

 

[cotedupy]

Inspired by @bsfsu 's recent Turkish find I put a knife on one of mine yesterday for a few mins of bevel-polish type work and sharpening:

While I probably can't split which edges I prefer between Turkish and Washitas. The latter will definitely not do stuff like this. Maybe I've changed my mind again... Turkish really are feckin' awesome!

 

[cotedupy]

So here's an interesting thing while I'm on the subject of Turkish Oilstones...

The screenshot below is from the introduction of a 1902 Edition of Pike's 'Oil Stones: How to Select and Use Them'. This is, by at least 100 years, the first acknowledgement I've been able to find that the Turkey Stone is the same as the modern Cretan stone, and indeed Pliny's oilstone. I personally still don't buy the 'interior of Asia Minor' line... but you never know!

Curiously this specific reference to Crete as the origin of the Turkey stone is omitted from the same pamphlet published in 1905, as well as from a 1915 edition of Pike's 'History of Sharpening Stones'.

 

[KingShapton]

The screenshot below is from the introduction of a 1902 Edition of Pike's 'Oil Stones: How to Select and Use Them'. This is, by at least 100 years, the first acknowledgement I've been able to find that the Turkey Stone is the same as the modern Cretan stone, and indeed Pliny's oilstone.

Really interesting stuff!