naptight
Well-Known Member
Dang I didn't even realize HAP40 isn't stainless.
Thoughts on Sukenari SG2 Gyuto
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Dan-
Senior Member
It's stainless enough. I have a HAP40 270, and my wife uses a ZDP189 santoku. Both have handled being left dirty overnight without rust. I live near the ocean as well. The ZDP is easier to sharpen than the HAP40. SG2 (mine is a Kobayashi, but still SG2) is easiest of all.
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Dirty...but not wet? I know people near the ocean that can rust magnacut and it's one of the most stainless steel ever.
Regardless yeah, not stainless, but more stain resistant compared to a simple carbon steel. I would feel fine leaving it wet for 20-30 minutes after it has a patina
Regardless yeah, not stainless, but more stain resistant compared to a simple carbon steel. I would feel fine leaving it wet for 20-30 minutes after it has a patina
Dan-
Senior Member
Dirty and wet. Here… it’s about 9pm on the east coast.
It's like I'm looking at my knife after coming back from break.
No worries.
Which chaeper knives are you getting?
FWIW, I love my KU Shiro Kamo AS as an affordable but good performing cheaper knife. The HT of AS is a bit softer. Still has decent edge retention. It takes a very keen edge and is pretty nice to sharpen.
Neither is ZDP-189.
Both are semistainless. But as long as you are sensible, semistainless knives are easy to care for.
In fact my favourite Sukenari steel is YXR7, which is semistainless. Almost as easy to sharpen as carbon, almost as stainless as stainless and as tough as nails. Unfortunately, not easily available ATM.
naptight
Well-Known Member
Dan-
Senior Member
8am today
And just to be clear I deliberately did this.
And just to be clear I deliberately did this.
Yoshi
Shindo Maniac
Is that a rust spot on where the tomato was?
Dan-
Senior Member
No, the only slight discoloration was toward the tip, which was just water. After rinsing with water and wiping with a paper towel, sorta like you’d do with a carbon knife to prevent marks, everything was gone.
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I've never seen rust on mine. I was surprised how fast the Hap40 takes a patina, but no rust. I love them -- tough, nice high performance grinds without feeling delicate, and the edges hold as well as anything I have tried.
naptight
Well-Known Member
I like this a lot. No matter how careful I am, I'm not.
naptight
Well-Known Member
I got a Dau Vua 52100 petty and a CCK HK1302 cleaver. I've got a little more money to spend on another knife or two. I'm considering something in the Fujiwara Nashiji line, so I have something with white steel. Maybe the 165 nakiri.
I'll check out the KU Shiro Kamo AS. Do you have any other recs?
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Right...that's called stainless san mai?
Regardless I also don't think it's an issue for most. I use ZDP, rex121 and s90v and they stain a bit but never got rust on them. I know people in very humid texas that they absolutely need full stainless for though, they get rust spots on aebl and magnacut as it is.
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If learning to sharpen, maybe don't start with TF. Anecdotes abound of overgrinds. These will just confuse you as you learn to sharpen.
I think you are asking whether I have other recommendations for a cheapish carbon steel knife? The Shiro Kamo blue2 is also probably a good bet. Many vendors have cheapish blue2 or white2 knives but I can't comment on most of them.
Sharpening a cleaver is a little different to Sharpening a gyuto due to the extreme height. A petty is a bit closer. I don't know how Dao Vua's HT of 52100 is. Good HTs of 52100 are amongst the best to sharpen steels out there. Poor HTs are sometimes said to feel "gummy".
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naptight
Well-Known Member
@Nemo oops I had more than a few typos in that post.
I read that about TF. But also he made a lot of enthusiasts' favorite.
The DV was bought and returned to **************. So they did their sharpening service and sold it at a discount. It was like a 90/10 edge. I don't know if that was on purpose or what. But I evened it out on the sg500, followed by the sg2000 and diamond strop. It feels way sharper now. It was fun. I was really slow, but pretty steady. I think it's an awesome knife. Extremely rustic, but with a nice handle. Only 1.6mm at the thickest part of the spine and 0.5 mm 10mm up for the edge at the heel. It doesn't seem very flexy for how thin it is. But it does has some weird low spots on both sides about 30mm from the tip.
I read that about TF. But also he made a lot of enthusiasts' favorite.
The DV was bought and returned to **************. So they did their sharpening service and sold it at a discount. It was like a 90/10 edge. I don't know if that was on purpose or what. But I evened it out on the sg500, followed by the sg2000 and diamond strop. It feels way sharper now. It was fun. I was really slow, but pretty steady. I think it's an awesome knife. Extremely rustic, but with a nice handle. Only 1.6mm at the thickest part of the spine and 0.5 mm 10mm up for the edge at the heel. It doesn't seem very flexy for how thin it is. But it does has some weird low spots on both sides about 30mm from the tip.
Yoshi
Shindo Maniac
How's the edge retention on the 52100?
It's similar to most fairly simple carbon steels. IME, it's better than white paper steel, worse than blue paper steel.
A bit more acid resistant than both.
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If you want inexpensive and easy to learn how to sharpen on then dive in all the way. Iron cladding is generally not nearly as problematic as it is made out to be. Not by a long shot. If you're going to let your knife sit dirty overnight then yeah, it ain't for you but I'd argue neither are most higher-end, thin-edged knives.
I used to fear carbon cores let alone iron clad and now it is almost all I own. Most of my knives can sit, even after an onion or tomato for five or so minutes with no issues. They might be able to go longer I just don't let them.
You can have a very good knife for not a lot of money that will let you learn and still be quite functional.
TF is polarizing around here with those who swear by the steel and are willing to overlook the numerous other issues those knives have and those of us who won't. I wouldn't own one if you gave it to me. Others see his work as the pinnacle of Japanese knives. But either way, I 100% agree with @Nemo that it isn't a good starting knife.
I say go here:
https://knifejapan.com/
Find something you like and go for it.
But if not, that's cool. I'll see ya in a couple years when you convert.
I used to fear carbon cores let alone iron clad and now it is almost all I own. Most of my knives can sit, even after an onion or tomato for five or so minutes with no issues. They might be able to go longer I just don't let them.
You can have a very good knife for not a lot of money that will let you learn and still be quite functional.
TF is polarizing around here with those who swear by the steel and are willing to overlook the numerous other issues those knives have and those of us who won't. I wouldn't own one if you gave it to me. Others see his work as the pinnacle of Japanese knives. But either way, I 100% agree with @Nemo that it isn't a good starting knife.
I say go here:
https://knifejapan.com/
Find something you like and go for it.
But if not, that's cool. I'll see ya in a couple years when you convert.
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I love TF, but it's a lot to pay before you know what you like. There are lots of affordable options. If you want AS, what about Moritaka? They cost a fraction. If white steel is okay -- I think it has a great combination of sharpenability and toughness -- what about Munetoshi? For a Western handle, I love Masahiro
naptight
Well-Known Member
Lol. Aside from corrosion resistance and price, what's the difference between stainless clad high carbon and iron clad? Are they not more or less the same edge retention, sharpenability and sharpening experience?But if not, that's cool. I'll see ya in a couple years when you convert.
Absolutely no impact on edge retention. The real difference comes when you want to thin and/or polish. Iron clad is just nicer to work with than stainless clad.
The other thing is just restricting your options.
In no way am I trying to talk you out of stainless clad, just trying to dispel some of the fear mongering and internal apprehension that often surrounds iron cladding.
Stainless clad obviously improves corrosion resistance over the majority of the blade. It doesn’t patina, which could be good or bad, depending on your preferences. It isn't as easy to grind when thinning but this is not a biggie (it's low carbon, so quite soft). It definitely limits your polishing options but it generally gives s pretty nice contrast between the core and cladding, especially once the core steel patina or if you use a stone that generates contrast. Forcing a patina of the core steel with an acid etch will highlight the lamination line dramatically.
Ironclad knives patina fairly quickly. Once patinated, they are somewhat less reactive. There are a few ironclads that are known to be quite reactive (some Mazakis and early Tanaka blue2 damascus come to mind) but the significant majority will just patina rapidly in use as long as you don't leave them wet for ages.
As @HumbleHomeCook said, no effect at all on the cutting edge.
FWIW, maybe 2/3 of my carbon knives are ironclad. In my case, this is because I don't really mind either way. My main interests are the metallurgy of steels/heat treatments and how the knives perform in food, so I just buy knives according to grinds or smiths and sharpeners that I want to try.
If I was an avid polisher, I'd have more ironclad knives.
I don't treat my ironclad knives any differently to my stainless clad or fully stainless knives: I do a quick rinse off under running water, then a quick dry on a tea towel after cutting acidic ingredients (onion, lemon , tomato) or if I'm not going to be using the knife in the next few minutes. A full wash and dry at the end of prep (with a little air drying before putting the knife away, just to be sure).
Ironclad knives patina fairly quickly. Once patinated, they are somewhat less reactive. There are a few ironclads that are known to be quite reactive (some Mazakis and early Tanaka blue2 damascus come to mind) but the significant majority will just patina rapidly in use as long as you don't leave them wet for ages.
As @HumbleHomeCook said, no effect at all on the cutting edge.
FWIW, maybe 2/3 of my carbon knives are ironclad. In my case, this is because I don't really mind either way. My main interests are the metallurgy of steels/heat treatments and how the knives perform in food, so I just buy knives according to grinds or smiths and sharpeners that I want to try.
If I was an avid polisher, I'd have more ironclad knives.
I don't treat my ironclad knives any differently to my stainless clad or fully stainless knives: I do a quick rinse off under running water, then a quick dry on a tea towel after cutting acidic ingredients (onion, lemon , tomato) or if I'm not going to be using the knife in the next few minutes. A full wash and dry at the end of prep (with a little air drying before putting the knife away, just to be sure).
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naptight
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all your help and feedback! In the end I decided to just get a refund on the sukanari and spend it on a custom AEB-L from Matt Sicard. At the end of the day I just don't do enough cooking to need some super steel wedge retention. And getting a little more practice sharpening isn't a bad thing either.
I also got four other cheap iron and stainless clad knives.
This is a lot of fun!
I also got four other cheap iron and stainless clad knives.
This is a lot of fun!
