Unpopular opinions
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HolyDiverScallop
Not too smart, but at least I’m ugly.
Good news, my beautiful and kind friend! I can help you recover your moneys for a small up-front retainer!
And then you get that fact that he sold a knife with a cracked handled at full price and didn't disclose it. Wasn't very impressed opening that box. His only comment about it? It's epoxied and won't move.
I'm old school. Still have a bridge to sell you. .
Not sure I understand that correctly but if I were to spend that kind of money on a yanick I would expect something well above average each and every time.
And if disappointed 1st time, I surely wouldn´t get another.
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I don't think you would be disappointed, I've had 3, and kept 2. Only sold one because it was an impulse buy (my first chance to buy one new) and I just preferred having a normal heel height of my first one (this one was 65mm tall lol).
I think most people would agree that everything he has put out for quite awhile has been well above average.
Not all knives are the same by the same maker. Yanick has different profiles, only few but still, slightly different grinds like some lower and higher bevels and then there is also the thing with the dimensions and also I might not like the handle aesthetically as much. Unless you have templates and only offer stuff like a model building kit like Kamon there will always be some variations. This is why I appreciate Kamon's stuff a lot I know what I will get and I know it will be good.
Personally for me Raquin is one I will have to go through quite some to get the right one. There is always stuff I like about the knives but some specs don't totally suit me. Had one I maybe should have gotten reground sightly and also modified the handle slightly but putting in more money and then having a harder time reselling it if it still won't fit is not great. Really like the feel of his handles but they are always too long and usually bordering too big. Have one right now which is a bigger one will have to test drive it more. Didn't really manage to do that the last few months, had too many knives to test and PAs. Might end up on soon or later WTS might also be a keeper. Got too many knives so it needs to fit me, pretty much only buying Customs.
This is probably a complicated topic and people might have different views. Here is my view:
1. There will always be variance on both the knife side and the user side. The type of kitchen knives we care about here are mostly hand made. There are variances among different units of the same knife in the same batch (if made in small batches). Potentially larger variances among different units of the same knife in different batches. Most likely bigger differences among similarly designed knives in different batches. Now you add different steel, different design and other attributes into the mix, you will have different knives from the same maker.
2. On the user side, everyone is different. There have been knives that I liked very much but people I trust didn’t and vise versa.
3. Are any knives made by popular (and market tested) makers straight up bad? It is possible, but the chance is not high. Could the “wrong user” get the “wrong knife” from a popular maker, it is also possible.
4. There are people chasing the “last 5%”. That last 5% can be things that are personal preferences. For example, there are people who go through multiple copies of a particular Japanese production knife made in the same era which should have much less variances than average.
5. Not suggesting any of these makers will make knives that are “below average” which is hard to define in the first place. It is still objectively possible and more possible subjectively based on a single individual’s preference.
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Uncle Danny
Professional kung-fu sound maker
Or, the maker could elaborate on the performance and what you could expect from at specific knife.
It’s a lot of cash and hours for the bladesmith, it would be mutual beneficial for both parts
It’s a lot of cash and hours for the bladesmith, it would be mutual beneficial for both parts
To @JayS20’s point, copy variance can be reduced using different process. Even with Ben’s process, I imagine some variances are still there, just low. People who are also into photography would know this - there are quite a bit copy variances in high end lens. Those high end lens are made with very high precision in factory and would go through a lot of QC steps.
I actually think this is part of the fun - finding a knife that’s meant for you.
A whole lot of the custom knife market is about "look at me" and likes over the actual performance of the knife. In my mind, if I pay over $400 and it doesn't cut like a dream then it's a faulty product and never again. There's no excuse for having to have high end knives reground to get good performance. Different or tailored performance fine, but not good. And if they are going to have variation, then yeah, they should give good dimensions and at least a snippet of a description about what to expect. Side shots, a nice stamp, pretty finishes and fancy handles don't cut the stuff on my board.
I don't know why some folks are so quick to make excuses for some of these guys.
That experience @esoo shared with all of us about Joel Black was enough right there to ensure I'll never own anything from that guy. Folks can say it is a one-off incident and only one side of the story but that was egregious as hell! There would've been three pages of rants if that was a $250 knife from a vendor.
I don't know why some folks are so quick to make excuses for some of these guys.
That experience @esoo shared with all of us about Joel Black was enough right there to ensure I'll never own anything from that guy. Folks can say it is a one-off incident and only one side of the story but that was egregious as hell! There would've been three pages of rants if that was a $250 knife from a vendor.
You can embrace the wabi sabi of handmade stuff!
Or do what ashy does and go on a epic ( and I imagine costly) quest to find the perfect tanaka.
Or do what ashy does and go on a epic ( and I imagine costly) quest to find the perfect tanaka.
I love wabi sabi. My knife racks are full of it. But that's not the same as shoddy work.
Despite my small sample pool of 5 JBs, everyone of them cut like a dream for me. Do I think other people may have different views? Yes. If it happens, I think it likely has a lot to do with copy variance and personal preferences. In this particular case, my feeling is Sky is a very experienced user with more personal preferences than an average user (hope Sky is ok with this assessment).
Custom service is sort of a separate discussion. No comments there.
That incident had nothing to do with the blade but a significantly cracked handle with no notification and then a shrug of a response when confronted on it.
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What’s going on here?
Unpopular opinions.
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Uh, I see, so everything as usual…
HolyDiverScallop
Not too smart, but at least I’m ugly.
If you think so....
I don’t disagree. I think this discussion started because someone was asking about the performance of JB’s knives as the person was confused after reading Sky’s comments in the JB PA thread. I was trying to offer my experience and my take on why.
"Cutting like a dream" is probably the most useless comment someone can make about the performance of a knife.
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I don't know what to think, I haven't read it all...
Is there an executive summary?
I don't know what to think, I haven't read it all...
"Old and young people yelling at clouds. Lots of discussion about pineapple on pizza"
First of all, I was replying to @HumbleHomeCook’s comment about “doesn’t cut like a dream.” I agree “cut like a dream” doesn’t provide a lot information about why someone likes the knife. It basically means that person likes how the knife cuts very much without any information for someone else to predict whether someone else would also like it.
HolyDiverScallop
Not too smart, but at least I’m ugly.
As that guy (who was more amused than confused), it is my view that a significantly cracked handle falls into the same category as the modified attributes in the post that precipitated my comment.
All of those things are attributes of the knife as delivered by the maker, all of which required attention by someone else to modify them, after which the knife was considered a high performer and an excellent example of the original maker's work.
This does not make sense to me in any way. It may have been a wonderfully crafted knife, but it needed non-trivial modification to "come alive" and/or had mechanical/aesthetic flaws out of the box.
Is it an excellent example of JB's work, or of the person who thinned it? Or both?
I liken this to buying a Chevy, and then taking it to a speed shop to have it customized. Is the end result an example of Detroit's finest output, or of the speed shop's?
All of those things are attributes of the knife as delivered by the maker, all of which required attention by someone else to modify them, after which the knife was considered a high performer and an excellent example of the original maker's work.
This does not make sense to me in any way. It may have been a wonderfully crafted knife, but it needed non-trivial modification to "come alive" and/or had mechanical/aesthetic flaws out of the box.
Is it an excellent example of JB's work, or of the person who thinned it? Or both?
I liken this to buying a Chevy, and then taking it to a speed shop to have it customized. Is the end result an example of Detroit's finest output, or of the speed shop's?
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It's quite clear that whenever pineapple is involved one simply cannot call it pizza, and whenever pizza is involved there cannot be pineapple.
I didn’t make any comments about your incident. If what you said happened is the full story, I agree it is bad custom service and bad decision to sell the knife without disclosure in the first place.
I offered my first hand experience about my interactions with him and his knives. Your experience and my experience are not mutually exclusive.
OkayMode
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No problem, I’ll have a stab at explaining from that perspective!
There are vanishingly few craftspeople out there making knives in the style and quality you see from Joel, Bryan, Milan, Yanick etc, and this forum is one of the small number of places where weirdos like us discuss kitchen knives made by these western makers at length.
Many people probably tread a bit lightly when speaking negatively about a maker as a whole here because reputations are easily ruined in a small community, which can ultimately put them out of business.
Take it from me after that thread on my Maillet custom a few weeks ago, it’s not particularly nice to think you have contributed to damaging someone’s livelihood… Mistakes happen, and sometimes expectations between the maker and customer don’t align.
It’s completely valid that @esoo was disappointed with that handle, but does it make Joel a shoddy maker in the round? In my view, absolutely not.
In a broader sense, if I buy a knife and the heat treat, f+f, profile, distal taper, geometry, and aesthetics are very good but the grind is a bit chonky. I would still consider that a good buy if it performs great after some thinning. But I like to tinker with my knives, and I appreciate not everyone does - and that would affect your perspective significantly.
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Can it be flatbread?
