US v Japan, and what is it with the gyotos?

[Adrian]

As a relative newcomer to this forum, I have some questions for the knife aficionados and collectors out there. As a Brit, until this year I was totally unaware of American artisan kitchen knives. My J knife experience was limited to commercial stuff (Kasumi and Shun) followed in recent years by a growing interest in various Japanese single bevels bought on my visits to Japan, plus a few imported to the UK.

This site clearly has a lot of people who focus a lot on American knives. So Q1: what do you guys see as the differences between Japanese smithing/forging and US smithing? As an amateur I have made few knives in Japan, in traditional small workshops, but have not got a clue how the US guys differ in methodology.

The other thing that really strikes me about this forum is that many currently active members are highly focused on Gyutos. Many of you guys have lots of them in different sizes from a bunch of makers. My own modest knife collection (excluding the German stuff and commercial factory J knives) consists of a range of different blade styles and I use different knives for different jobs. So Q2: what is it with the Gyutos? Why are they so universally popular here?

The only knife I have that I would regard as Gyuto is a Misono UX10. What am I missing?

Adrian

 

[MadDurrr]

So Q2: what is it with the Gyutos? Why are they so universally popular here?

The only knife I have that I would regard as Gyuto is a Misono UX10. What am I missing?

Adrian

A gyuto IS a chef's knife. They are the most utilized knife in the kitchen...usually.

 

[Sabaki]

I think because the "Gyuto" is very commonly produced, many makers are trying to make their's the best possible and out of curiosity many members are more than willing to try these out!

But what is a "good" gyuto...? it's definitely not the same for everyone but i guess many can refer to this type of knife:eyebrow:

 

[KitchenCommander]

Many Japanese makers (possibly all) seem to be forging their knives.
American makers seem to be using a mix of forging and stock removal depending on who makes the knife. Some people really like forged blades, some don't mind as long as it is good quality, others just like to support fellow American smiths. Many Japanese brands can be had at a lower price than American made knives because Japanese knives are made in shops with multiple workers, while many American makers are single person, or small team operations.

I do not put much emphasis on method of manufacture because I think forging and stock removal can both yield equally high end products. That being said, most of my knives are Japanese because they are cheaper than US makers. I do have one custom US made small chef knife that I picked up early in my quest. It is awesome, but not the perfect profile for me because I had not found my way yet.

Also I like Gyuto's because they are the most versatile and I use them most often. Having 2 or more of any other type would mean 1 of them would hardly get any use. Where having 3-4 Gyutos means I can rotate them daily and only sharpen once every few months (if that).

 

[Bill13]

1. Many of the Japanese makers are like Murray Carter (which makes sense) they can crank out a lot of quality knives and put less emphasis on the handles, sometimes a lot less. With the exception of Shig's (there may be others I am unfamiliar with like Kato's) there can be some variation in quality too. American makers, and I will include Will Catchside in this group, see knife making more from a more artistic view point. Yes functionality is important but so it the overall look if the knife. The handle will usually have as much care put into it as the blade.

2. One can never have to many gyuto's:laugh:. I own 8 at the moment ranging from 225 to 255 and even accounting for the different sizes they are all very different. Profile, thickness, steel, handle shape, all make a big difference. They are so popular because they are so versatile - it's the easy go to knife. I do need to rebalance my portfolio by adding a couple of sujihiki's.

 

[Mucho Bocho]

One can never have to many gyuto's:laugh:. I own 8 at the moment ranging from 225 to 255 and even accounting for the different sizes they are all very different. Profile, thickness, steel, handle shape, all make a big difference. They are so popular because they are so versatile - it's the easy go to knife.

Absolutely my thought. Took the words right out of my mouth. My gyuto count isn't quite as high, I do have several Suiji's though.

 

[brooksie967]

Good questions. I do see a lot of American knives being displayed here but many of them seem to command a very high price point yet use steel that I'm less familiar with.
IMO it's hard to compete with the Hitachi steel used in J-Knives.
I've also seen too many "damascus" "knives" being turned out by "blacksmiths" in North America that have no real experience with heat treatment/forging etc. but get into the knife game to try and make a buck.
Blacksmiths in Japan seem to be more specialized in their practices and often have a family heritage of the trade.

Price point drives what I can afford and there's no way I can afford a knife from a top American maker and for the price I can pay to get a konosuke, takeda, etc I'm getting way more value than if I threw $300 at an American maker.

 

[chefcomesback]

Curios to see what knives do you own ?

 

[Adrian]

The odd thing for me in a way (having owned a restaurant for a while and worked in a pro kitchen from time to time for a good many years) is that Gyutos, especially with a western handle, feel in use a lot like the German knives I used to use (I have quite a few Gustav Emil Ern's bought maybe 30 years ago, some Henckels, Wusthof etc), whereas a single bevel J knife made for a specific job is a completely different animal. In my various travels in Japan I didn't see a hell of a lot of western style knives in use, though the prep is of course usually very different. Maybe I need to try a few more gyuto profiles.

The point about US makers liking to remove material is interesting, because I have not really seen that in Japan. The workshops I have been in generally produced most of the shaping in the forge and on the anvil, then putting a bevel on, on a rotary waterstone, followed by final sharpening and handle fit. So, US makers presumably do much more of the shaping on a grinding wheel? I don't really get the western fascination with fancy handles, though I can see that if a knife is for display rather than use then it is a nice thing to have. I quite like the Japanese utility aspect of a Ho handle. When it is past its best you knock it off and burn another one on. The cultural differences that affect the tools are really interesting.

 

[Timthebeaver]

I love J-knives, but holding up Takeda as an example of great value for money is laughable.

 

[limpet]

Regarding gyutos: gyuto = chef's knife = very versatile. My favorite size = 240 because it's not super big, but big enough for some slicing and also big enough to show some substantial differences in profile/geometry when comparing different makers. As a crazy knife collector, I value the gyuto 240 the most because of these differences. I think I have about 19 Gyuto 240s now and it would be very boring if they all looked and behaved the same.

Compared to that, I have 5-6 nakiri knives but they are mostly in different sizes. I don't think it would be as much fun to own 19 Nakiri 165s.

 

[brooksie967]

I love J-knives, but holding up Takeda as an example of great value for money is laughable.

Not to get off topic but I'm not sure why it's not good value. It comes as advertised. Sharp OOTB, laser thin, straight as an arrow and great heat treated aogami super.

 

[chinacats]

Not to get off topic but I'm not sure why it's not good value. It comes as advertised. Sharp OOTB, laser thin, straight as an arrow and great heat treated aogami super.

Badass knives, but grind has been somewhat inconsistent with his earlier pieces having the more sexy grind imo.

 

[Timthebeaver]

I used to have a Takeda, purchased 7 years ago when they were half the price and generally made (ground) to a higher standard.

Rough KU "rustic" knives (not that I have a problem with that) with very inconsistent grinds, poor fit and finish. I'd go as far as to say that there are comparatively few J-knives which are such poor value for money. If you covet Laser performance get an Ashi Hamono Ginga for close to a third of the price.

 

[Adrian]

I think that's a bit harsh. In Europe we have been able to by Takeda knives at sensible prices. I don't know if this is still the case ( I am talking a couple of years ago I suppose) but when I bought a couple, some while ago, they were cheap. I regarded them as "rustic" knives.

 

[JohnnyChance]

Takeda or not, I will agree with the statement that your dollar goes farther with a Japanese made knife, in general. Knives from American smiths are more a boutique item and while you may be getting your money's worth from a materials/uniqueness/craftsmanship standpoint, it does not mean you are getting your moneys worth from a performance standpoint.

 

[easy13]

I will agree with the statement that your dollar goes farther with a Japanese made knife, in general. Knives from American smiths are more a boutique item and while you may be getting your money's worth from a materials/uniqueness/craftsmanship standpoint, it does not mean you are getting your moneys worth from a performance standpoint.

I'll second that thought with handle difference being a major factor. As for Takedas, I got a Sasanoha about a half a year ago and after spending 30 mins easing the shoulders on it, the knife works real nice. I probably got lucky getting a decent ground one and I shouldn't have to do sh*t to a knife out the box that costs that much, but its a great piece now

 

[Zwiefel]

Many Japanese makers (possibly all) seem to be forging their knives.
American makers seem to be using a mix of forging and stock removal depending on who makes the knife. Some people really like forged blades, some don't mind as long as it is good quality, others just like to support fellow American smiths.

The topic of forged vs stock removal has been hashed over a few times, in some detail, on this forum...there are a couple of good threads on it....I recommend reading them for perspective on what to expect from each from a performance perspective.

RE: jKnives and stock removal...I'm not sure what the % is across the industry...but I do know that Suisin has a variety of knives made from Inox with the stock removal method and that the SIH is a fantastic knife, with quite a high level of craft, performance and consistency....I would guess, perhaps to my own embarrassment, that JKI's Ginga series are also made this way (and this is the product I would consider the primary competitor for the SIH, with a considerably higher value, but perhaps slightly lower performance).

 

[pkjames]

Culturally, I see the Japan (china, korea) being strictly rule-following, teamwork, hierarchical, which really prevent you from standing out in the crowd; compare to the western culture of emphasizing on individuality and personality. In terms of kitchen knives, western makers tend to really work with the clients to make sure they get what they want that really reflect their personality / taste compare to the traditional Jknives being rather a tool to get the job done.

This partly explains why many Japanese brands (suisin, konosuke, nenohi) with a lot of cool products that we the western consumers like, are rather overseas focused. Those domestic oriented brands (masamoto, aritsusgu, takayuki) in contrast, have a very strong mid-tire product line ($200-$300) but not many super fancy stuff.

 

[JDA_NC]

Takeda or not, I will agree with the statement that your dollar goes farther with a Japanese made knife, in general. Knives from American smiths are more a boutique item and while you may be getting your money's worth from a materials/uniqueness/craftsmanship standpoint, it does not mean you are getting your moneys worth from a performance standpoint.

I think this is fairly true for most knives above the $300 price range. Regardless of where the knife is made. There are a lot of factors on why we do justify these purchases (steel, grind, profile, 'feel' etc) - but let's be honest. There are less expensive knives that will get the job done.

The only knife I own by an American maker also happens to be my favorite knife in my kit. It's a Marko 260mm S-Grind gyuto in 52100. It cost me only slightly north of $400 and I think it's a stupid good deal. I'm not one for bling handles or damascus and I love this knife for its performance alone. He's obviously heavily influenced by Japanese knife makers but I think it's a little bit of a disservice to say American/Western craftsmen don't care about performance.

 

[Asteger]

Culturally, I see the Japan (china, korea) being strictly rule-following, teamwork, hierarchical, which really prevent you from standing out in the crowd; compare to the western culture of emphasizing on individuality and personality. In terms of kitchen knives, western makers tend to really work with the clients to make sure they get what they want that really reflect their personality / taste compare to the traditional Jknives being rather a tool to get the job done.

I don't think such generalisations are that valid and actually are cliché. Yes, the first time I started looking in knife shops in Japan (and noticing) I was sort of amazed how all knives looked the same, with the same handles, etc, and wondered why there wasn't more variety. Maybe someone who's worked in restaurants in J can fill us in, but my impression is that, along with the practicality and economy of the design, that a cook doesn't want to show up at work with showy blades because, well, does he imagine he's some sort of super cook? Not to mention that if you go shopping, you don't really see the showy sort of knives that some at KKF are into. So, yes, there's some sort of conformity thing going on.

On the other hand, I don't think things would be that different if everyone in the kitchen showed up with tatoos on their arms and damascus blades with custom burl handles. Conformity of a different sort. In that case, the way to stand out would be to be less showy and have more J-style knives with traditional handles. (Would save you $ too.)

This is all getting away from the original questions, including why gyuto are so popular. But I guess these issues may be related.

 

[MAS4T0]

I find that variety is useful with gyuto as with them being multi-purpose there are advantages and drawbacks to each knife whereas with most task specific knives I generally find that one knife is simply better or worse than another rather than having it's own niche. When I have more than one of any other knife I find that one of them gets used 100% of the time and the other never gets touched. Another factor is that I prefer to work with as few knives as possible at a given time so if I can get away with just using a gyuto instead of a nakiri and a slicer I'd take the gyuto every time.

 

[jklip13]

I think that Gyuto are so popular because for most people they are the most used knives. If you do decide you want to own 15 knives, it makes the most sense for them to be the shape you get the most use out of. For instance if you had 8 different Deba and only broke fish down once a week, you would get very little use of each knife and maybe the differences would be less apparent.

As for the quality and price differences between American and Japanese makers, I think it has a lot to do with the volume of their operations. Takeda Hamono (since we are on the topic) can put out about 10-30 knives in a day, and has been doing so for decades. I don't exactly know the work flow of any American makers, but It's certainly much less. Obviously this makes each knife more expensive for the American makers but it also gives them much less experience in terms of number of completed works.

In Japan the trend is to pick a style of knife making, apprentice for someone work work work work work work and then then start making your own knives, usually in a similar style with their own twist. This means before a maker has their own brand, they have a ton of experience and understanding. Not to say the Americans don't have the understanding, but for the most part they don't have the repetition or practice of their Japanese counterparts.
To put it in a cooks terms: You can understand how to butcher a chicken or fillet a salmon really well, but there is still going to be a big difference between your 8th and your 800th attempt.
In Japanese knives I think this is the most evident difference. For Konosuke grinding 40 dead straight, laser thin Gyuto with total consistency is just another day in the office.
I think what Western makers bring to the table is versatility. If you have a picture of that perfect slicer in your head, feather Damascus with 52100 core hardened to 63 (because that's what you prefer) and you want a Koa handle with 3 silver spacers and a mammoth ferrule THEY WILL DO IT. The same cannot be said for many Japanese Makers.
This is just what I think, and obviously there are exceptions.

 

[brooksie967]

Very interesting points of view you're all sharing. Jon, I think you've hit the nail on the head

 

[panda]

american focus on form
japan focus on function

obsessed with gyutos because most of us use it for 90% of our tasks and own multiple ones for variety. you only need 1 car, but if you can afford and use multiple ones why the hell not!??

personally i only have two gyutos but theyre the same knife in different lengths for practical reasons.

 

[Funkola]

I wonder if any J knife maker can forge me a 10 inch cimeter?

 

[jklip13]

I would talk to Konosuke and Takeda, both have done them in the past

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Some valid points made on this thread. I am partial to Japanese blades. Used Masamoto's, Aritsugu, Suisin mainly for years at work. They performed much better than the European mostly Forschner knives I used when I started in kitchens.

I'm not as biased as used to be. Thought any full heel bolstered knife was no more than misguided tradition. Looking for cheap carbons have restored an older Gustav Emil slicer and as of late a couple older carbon Sabatiers. Americans and Europeans were making some functional quality carbon blades in the past.

Feel that many less expensive Japanese knives have quality blades that cut well have a rough finish and cheap handles. Sometimes I think they put all the attention into functional blade and figure the owner can fix up the rough edges & handle if they like. I have no problem with that at all.

 

[spoiledbroth]

Feel that many less expensive Japanese knives have quality blades that cut well have a rough finish and cheap handles. Sometimes I think they put all the attention into functional blade and figure the owner can fix up the rough edges & handle if they like. I have no problem with that at all.

Having owned many less expensive knives I agree with this 100%. I dont think functional blade is a euphemism either, some, like my Tanaka are very very good performers.

This is a sentiment that doesn't seem to be shared by American makers as only a few I have seen offer what I would consider a less expensive knife.

 

[Adrian]

Some really interesting responses. I particularly liked jklip13's and I agree with a lot of that. Today I got up at 6am, (it is a bank holiday here) and decided to make a bunch of stuff for the freezer. Broke down 6 chickens (12 breasts, thighs went on a pie, carcasses - which is what I bought them for - made stock). Made pulled pork, bolognese, some pies, some pink pickled onions, couple of pineapples. For probably the first time in years I decided just to use one knife, my one and only Japanese gyuto, which in reality is a western handled Misono UX 10. Quite a big one (I have not measured it). Chopped about 2 dozen onions finely, plenty of mushrooms, carrot, celery etc. Misono needed sharpening half way through.

Looking back on it, as I write this, I am faster with a couple of J knives for all the veg prep work. I don't know why. I also bone faster and more accurately with a large petty than I do a gyuto. I think you can get used to anything and if you happen to use gyuto's a lot, a single bevel J knife is bound to feel strange. I also like to think of a knife as a tool - hence I don't go in for fancy handles etc: I want it to be the very best tool I can lay my hands on. I quite like the fact that Japanese knives are so plain and functional.

Still, I have decided to lay my hands on an upgraded gyuto.