What are the most sought after gyutos now?

[DF18]

He's got the videos to prove it!

This is my new favorite cutting video (I didn’t have any old favorite cutting video). Surgical beater, I love it and I want one.

 

[Bico Doce]

but will they outperform my Gengetsu by a factor of 4? Or even a noticeable amount?

I think the key word here is “noticeable”. This hypothetical knife may cost twice as much but because of diminishing returns it will not increase performance (how ever that is subjectively defined) by 2 X. Refinement and nuance is what you find at the top, whether or not that is noticeable will come down to the user. Some will say it is worth the money but others may take a hard pass (this probably depends most on how much money you have to blow on knives)

edit: added "by 2 X", i failed to finish my thought

 

[Eloh]

The best performimg kitchen knives are made by small operations (imo)

On the other hand there are super expensive artisanal kitchen knives that perform worse than a cheap semi production knife.

But there is everything in between and you need to know what you value the most.

 

[Logan A.]

But you can quantify the subjectivity somewhat.

Western makers command more $/knife than their Japanese counterparts. Many reasons have been suggested, I don't think it matters why so much as that it is.

From makers that have spent time here as sponsors it could be easily argued that Haburn and Bloodroot are the most sought after - their spec knives sell as soon as they are put up and their wait lists are 5+ years. And both turn out a respectable amount of product.

By this measure Marko and Devin are right up there as well. (Though I don't know if Hoss is actually producing new knives at this time) Martell's knives are certainly coveted. And I'm sure there's many that I'm not thinking of or not aware of.

I believe western makers will generally cost more than their Japanese counter parts, but I’ve yet to find a Japanese maker producing Damascus blades (not pre-clad) at a fair price. If the Japanese maker does in house cladding then they will charge often times a thousand+ dollars. Kisuke manaka is one example.
I find that for Damascus blades, especially non-clad ones then you can’t beat the price of western makers.
Just an interesting observation I’ve personally found in pricing. Damascus or not obviously has nothing to do with performance.

 

[Jeff]

There's no objectivity involved. Simple market forces. For performance it is really hard to beat factory produced Japanese knives. But they are boring and not that pretty and readily available. So there's a demand for artisan produced knives and a limited number of artisans to produce them. It doesn't mean that a $1000+ Raquin is going to chop your onions any better than a $120 Mac Pro.

Is a Rolls Royce going to get you to the grocery store any better than a Chevy P/U truck?

 

[Bico Doce]

Is a Rolls Royce going to get you to the grocery store any better than a Chevy P/U truck?

Depends if you want to enjoy the ride. That’s what you pay a premium for.

 

[daddy yo yo]

Depends if you want to enjoy the ride. That’s what you pay a premium for.

Correct. And „enjoying“ is a very subjective thing…

 

[user 16756]

Is a Rolls Royce going to get you to the grocery store any better than a Chevy P/U truck?

I mean objectively?

well, from a certain perspective yes actually.

Rolls NVH, ride quality, the quality of the materials you interact with, the smoothness of the transmission and engine, etc. are all obviously far better than in a Chevy pickup.

even in terms of just getting there safely, since we're specifically talking about a Chevrolet, Id probably take my chances in a Rolls long before a Chevrolet if I am going to get in a crash.

returning to the Raquin versus Mac thing, I actually disagree there is no inherent difference between the two that justifies the Raquin's higher price. Raquin uses more expensive materials and spends more time per knife than Mac. Granted if you wanted to make 1 single Mac knife from scratch it would cost you more than a boat because of the tooling costs, but in the long run the amount of human labor represented by a Mac is simply lower than a Raquin because the latter is a product designed for easy production.

'performance' is the biggest red herring out there IMO. while it's true you can hedge and say things like money is fake or it's all subjective while these are nominally true in practice it's not so simple. gold is just shiny metal that Europeans really liked to pick up off the ground in South America but you will find most folks are literally incapable of seeing it as not having some sort of intrinsic value. so tl;dr a lot of things we think are subjective are not as subjective as we think, and a lot of things we think arent subjective are more than we suppose, it's just easier to identify the latter case

 

[ChrisCrat]

I'm the one who opened this can of worms which derailed the topic a bit, sorry for that.

My intention was not to discuss by which margin artisan makers' knives are better than industrially made ones. I understand the principle of diminishing returns and that 'functional' value for money goes down as price goes up. A Rolex will not tell the time any better than a Casio.

What had my interest is why knives from the listed makers are more sought after than similar(ly priced) knives from other makes.
Someone mentioned that Wat's are excellent but readily available. Would the latter be a reason for them not to be as desirable as their equals from smaller makers? Collectors will chase after / pay more for a rare knife, even if it is similar in construction, material and performance to the readily available knife?
Going by most answers I have read so far I am guessing this is the case, rather than that (any of) the coveted makers have discovered ground breaking forging techniques or shape with unparalleled geometry?

 

[user 16756]

Going by most answers I have read so far I am guessing this is the case, rather than that (any of) the coveted makers have discovered ground breaking forging techniques or shape with unparalleled geometry?

well, it's not so simple.

you can go on IG and find tons of people who make knives at a small scale by themselves that dont see much of the hype that some of the makers here do. many of them, frankly, do not make good kitchen knives for one reason or another.

everyone mentioned in this thread is a seriously good knife maker. I would argue that irrespective of anything else, the market does actually recognize that these folks are very skilled at making knives.

Watanabe makes a very fine knife. they are not finished to the same level as many of these Western makers. if they were, I suspect the prices would be a bit closer.

so it's a combination of rarity, hype, quality, artistic prowess. they all come together and that's why some of this stuff sells for twice as much as new in minutes.

 

[big_adventure]

I mean objectively?

well, from a certain perspective yes actually.

Rolls NVH, ride quality, the quality of the materials you interact with, the smoothness of the transmission and engine, etc. are all obviously far better than in a Chevy pickup.

even in terms of just getting there safely, since we're specifically talking about a Chevrolet, Id probably take my chances in a Rolls long before a Chevrolet if I am going to get in a crash.

returning to the Raquin versus Mac thing, I actually disagree there is no inherent difference between the two that justifies the Raquin's higher price. Raquin uses more expensive materials and spends more time per knife than Mac. Granted if you wanted to make 1 single Mac knife from scratch it would cost you more than a boat because of the tooling costs, but in the long run the amount of human labor represented by a Mac is simply lower than a Raquin because the latter is a product designed for easy production.

'performance' is the biggest red herring out there IMO. while it's true you can hedge and say things like money is fake or it's all subjective while these are nominally true in practice it's not so simple. gold is just shiny metal that Europeans really liked to pick up off the ground in South America but you will find most folks are literally incapable of seeing it as not having some sort of intrinsic value. so tl;dr a lot of things we think are subjective are not as subjective as we think, and a lot of things we think arent subjective are more than we suppose, it's just easier to identify the latter case

Eh, gold DOES have some intrinsic, objective value. It's a spectacular conductor, it's stupidly stable (reacting with nearly nothing), it's incredibly ductile. Gold is a very useful metal, jewelry aside.

Most of the value of a given knife is subjective. The fact that it's made of more expensive steel or made using more expensive techniques doesn't make the knife automatically, definitively superior for cutting an onion. I might prefer to use the much "nicer," much more high-end blade, but that preference is absolutely going to be informed by what I know about the knife, more than it's pure performance. And price, exclusivity and appearance all do a lot of informing.

Anecdotes... there was a huge wine tasting done a while ago in France with the goal of seeing how much of the preference of experts was informed purely by taste, and how much was informed by other factors. Basically, the end result was that these 100 experts, which included top level sommeliers and winemakers, were absolutely ass-pulling some things and didn't at all realize they were doing it. Two tests stuck out: the tasting was "blind" but it was, er, massaged a bit. In the first memorable test, they tasted 3 wines. The bottles were wrapped in foil, but you can tell a lot about a wine from slight shape differences. Here, they used one clearly expensive, high end bottle, one mid-tier bottle, and one low-end bottle. Obviously there were several of each to serve 100. However, they put the same wine in all three bottles. Something like 3 of the 100 experts recognized that it was the same wine. The others mostly put the expensive bottle of wine on top, the mid tier second, and the low end third. Recall: this was the exact same wine in all three bottles, and these people are supposedly experts at identifying and qualifying wines. The second test was even more abusive: they put out two red wines. Unfortunately, one of the wines was a white wine that they had colored red. I believe 2 of the 100 testers recognized that something was up. The other 98 identified the white wine + color as a red. Experts - but even expertise in this case is screwed up by subjetivity: notably that an expensive wine is better than a cheap one, regardless of actual taste, and that red looking wine must in fact be a red wine.

Another: I know an ex-chef in Paris. She had a set of... some Japanese factory made knives. Can't remember which, but a big brand. She replaced the knives with Vic fibroxes, and she's a die-hard advocate for them now. She prefers one of those to any of the tools I have hanging on my wall.

tl;dr - everything is subjective. That doesn't make it bad to prefer the "nicer" product. We have the right to like and love and hate and despise what we wish.

 

[timebard]

I believe western makers will generally cost more than their Japanese counter parts, but I’ve yet to find a Japanese maker producing Damascus blades (not pre-clad) at a fair price. If the Japanese maker does in house cladding then they will charge often times a thousand+ dollars. Kisuke manaka is one example.
I find that for Damascus blades, especially non-clad ones then you can’t beat the price of western makers.
Just an interesting observation I’ve personally found in pricing. Damascus or not obviously has nothing to do with performance.

This also seems to be true for Honyaki/differentially hardened blades. Western makers tend not to charge much of a premium for them, while a Japanese smith might ask 2-3x as much as their sanmai offerings. There are differences in approach/technique but my understanding is that the result is pretty much the same.

 

[user 16756]

Eh, gold DOES have some intrinsic, objective value. It's a spectacular conductor, it's stupidly stable (reacting with nearly nothing), it's incredibly ductile. Gold is a very useful metal, jewelry aside.

Most of the value of a given knife is subjective. The fact that it's made of more expensive steel or made using more expensive techniques doesn't make the knife automatically, definitively superior for cutting an onion. I might prefer to use the much "nicer," much more high-end blade, but that preference is absolutely going to be informed by what I know about the knife, more than it's pure performance. And price, exclusivity and appearance all do a lot of informing.

the people I mentioned it think it has intrinsic value as money. I appreciate what you're saying but we're not talking about exactly the same thing here IMO

also while more expensive materials, longer hours invested, paying back time spent to learn the techniques etc. may not matter to some nominal version of "performance", the "value" of things is related to how much labor they represent. not in totality of course but it is. this is exactly my point about "performance" being a red herring. to get so focused on it doesnt make any sense at all to me.

 

[Migraine]

Eh, gold DOES have some intrinsic, objective value. It's a spectacular conductor, it's stupidly stable (reacting with nearly nothing), it's incredibly ductile. Gold is a very useful metal, jewelry aside.

Most of the value of a given knife is subjective. The fact that it's made of more expensive steel or made using more expensive techniques doesn't make the knife automatically, definitively superior for cutting an onion. I might prefer to use the much "nicer," much more high-end blade, but that preference is absolutely going to be informed by what I know about the knife, more than it's pure performance. And price, exclusivity and appearance all do a lot of informing.

Anecdotes... there was a huge wine tasting done a while ago in France with the goal of seeing how much of the preference of experts was informed purely by taste, and how much was informed by other factors. Basically, the end result was that these 100 experts, which included top level sommeliers and winemakers, were absolutely ass-pulling some things and didn't at all realize they were doing it. Two tests stuck out: the tasting was "blind" but it was, er, massaged a bit. In the first memorable test, they tasted 3 wines. The bottles were wrapped in foil, but you can tell a lot about a wine from slight shape differences. Here, they used one clearly expensive, high end bottle, one mid-tier bottle, and one low-end bottle. Obviously there were several of each to serve 100. However, they put the same wine in all three bottles. Something like 3 of the 100 experts recognized that it was the same wine. The others mostly put the expensive bottle of wine on top, the mid tier second, and the low end third. Recall: this was the exact same wine in all three bottles, and these people are supposedly experts at identifying and qualifying wines. The second test was even more abusive: they put out two red wines. Unfortunately, one of the wines was a white wine that they had colored red. I believe 2 of the 100 testers recognized that something was up. The other 98 identified the white wine + color as a red. Experts - but even expertise in this case is screwed up by subjetivity: notably that an expensive wine is better than a cheap one, regardless of actual taste, and that red looking wine must in fact be a red wine.

Another: I know an ex-chef in Paris. She had a set of... some Japanese factory made knives. Can't remember which, but a big brand. She replaced the knives with Vic fibroxes, and she's a die-hard advocate for them now. She prefers one of those to any of the tools I have hanging on my wall.

tl;dr - everything is subjective. That doesn't make it bad to prefer the "nicer" product. We have the right to like and love and hate and despise what we wish.

I remember reading that a lot of these stories about sommeliers being bamboozled by wines are greatly exaggerated or outright made up.

http://sciencesnopes.blogspot.com/2...nces are you've heard,had them rate the wines.

Quick bit of googling brings up a snopes article about the experiment you seem to be referring to.

 

[big_adventure]

I remember reading that a lot of these stories about sommeliers being bamboozled by wines are greatly exaggerated or outright made up.

http://sciencesnopes.blogspot.com/2...nces are you've heard,had them rate the wines.

Quick bit of googling brings up a snopes article about the experiment you seem to be referring to.

I read the story in two different French newspapers back in the day - early 2000's sounds correct. I cannot vouch for the veracity of the story or the quality of the reporting beyond that.

That said, the article you published is NOT from Snopes. Rather it's from a private blog from a wine enthusiast, and said enthusiast created the blog just to refute this story,years after the fact.

 

[ModRQC]

Most sought after gyutos should be the ones you want, nor what markets dictate for prices and criteria to be "better". If that is a rarer more coveted unit of absurd prices and legendery criteria, have at them. Before spending 1K on a Shig or twice for a Kato I'd contact one of the custom maker around these parts for sure.

Unless it's BST value you're after. Seems there's a good racket into it.

 

[zizirex]

The Tier List

 

[ChrisCrat]

That list is interesting. Is there a more complete version with say, Doi, Kagekiyo, Watanabe, Masamoto, etc?

 

[Migraine]

I read the story in two different French newspapers back in the day - early 2000's sounds correct. I cannot vouch for the veracity of the story or the quality of the reporting beyond that.

That said, the article you published is NOT from Snopes. Rather it's from a private blog from a wine enthusiast, and said enthusiast created the blog just to refute this story,years after the fact.

You are quite right, I should've looked more closely.

This seems a more balanced take and mostly backs the idea winetasters aren't much cop:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis

 

[Perverockstar]

Now wait, I've now tried the Kato santoku (lowers head in shame) and it isn't a better cutter than the Kramer Zwillig FC61 mass produced santoku. I'd even say the handle isn't as nice (both westerns). But my 6.8 sun Carter is significantly better than the Kei Kobayashi SG2 210 mm at the same length. And the 240 mm Wat (post Carter resharpen) is better in almost all ways than the Ryky 240 "burrfection knife" (again head hangs in shame) I purchased. The only way it is worse is reactivity, being blue #1 vs Aus8. So there is some value added for the "maker's mark" in those cases. The more interesting comparison is to the Wootz or Muteki knives I own from not as well known makers. The Muteki (Alex Horn) I have is very nice.

Quite interesting, specially since I have been looking at the Kei Kobayashi 210mm damascus Gyuto.

So, you think it is not worth the asking price?

 

[WiriWiri]

Quite interesting, specially since I have been looking at the Kei Kobayashi 210mm damascus Gyuto.

So, you think it is not worth the asking price?

Not if performance is your aim - it’s basically the same lazer knife and profile in a variant of the same R2 steel, likely to come in the form of a slightly different pre-laminated billet for Kobayashi to grind and shape, If you like the looks then go for it, but the swirly pattern seems to be the main reason behind the price difference.

 

[DanielC]

An enlightening thread. Lots of good info. I will take notes one day

 

[big_adventure]

You are quite right, I should've looked more closely.

This seems a more balanced take and mostly backs the idea winetasters aren't much cop:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis

Hey, I admit I had a pang of fear when I saw what you posted. I read the blog post, and it even sounded reasonably done. I checked the comments, however, then looked around for other useful info on the site and found... not a lot.

Generally, people who "know" wine are very much against being told that they might not be as incredibly awesome as they think they are at identifying different products. This obviously applies to winos, and that applies to many knife nerds as well. People commenting that, for example, TF's heat treat of AS is better than X's. It might be - I don't pretend to know exactly what combo of factors TF or "X" use in that example. But comparing one knife by one maker to completely different knife by a completely different maker means that we are dealing with different profiles and edge geometries, plus we are probably only comparing one example of each. It's not exactly scientific. And of course, if we just paid 1500 for a knife, we are going to really, truly want to believe that said knife is better than the 200 dollar knife next to it, so our subjective opinions can't really be trusted.

 

[thebradleycrew]

The Tier List

View attachment 162642

This is a really good stab at things, IMO. One needs to factor in things like total # made, total # available, ability for a maker to continue making more, etc. I think this does so pretty simply. Most western makers are still actively producing blades regularly, so over time, they become less rare, not more. Ashi honyaki and Okishiba and River Jump are either no longer being made or made in such small numbers that demand will outstrip supply. I think Jiro and Kaiju still have a long production life ahead of them.

 

[Eloh]

True.... On the other hand there are a few parameters that are quiet easy to judge with kitchen knives. For example i remember handling two knives off that tier list above that i couldnt get through root celery without massive force. Those would be disqualified as a chef knife for me

It's not exactly scientific. And of course, if we just paid 1500 for a knife, we are going to really, truly want to believe that said knife is better than the 200 dollar knife next to it, so our subjective opinions can't really be trusted.

 

[Perverockstar]

Not if performance is your aim - it’s basically the same lazer knife and profile in a variant of the same R2 steel, likely to come in the form of a slightly different pre-laminated billet for Kobayashi to grind and shape, If you like the looks then go for it, but the swirly pattern seems to be the main reason behind the price difference.

Well, I mean the Kobayashis in general, compared to other stuff. I know that the main difference with the non damascus one is the look.

 

[talcum]

Quite interesting, specially since I have been looking at the Kei Kobayashi 210mm damascus Gyuto.

So, you think it is not worth the asking price?

Depends what you want. As a cheap laser, the Kei is good but i would argue the damascus I got is fluff. If all you are about is the cut, then the SG2 without the frills might be an acceptable laser at that price point.

 

[Perverockstar]

Depends what you want. As a cheap laser, the Kei is good but i would argue the damascus I got is fluff. If all you are about is the cut, then the SG2 without the frills might be an acceptable laser at that price point.

Thank you for your opinion. It's precisely the reason I'm considering it, for being a laser, as well as the Sujihiki.

So I guess it is not terrific value.

 

[big_adventure]

True.... On the other hand there are a few parameters that are quiet easy to judge with kitchen knives. For example i remember handling two knives off that tier list above that i couldnt get through root celery without massive force. Those would be disqualified as a chef knife for me

Oh, yeah, there are knives, even really "desirable" knives, which are designed and made in a way that simply doesn't sing to me or won't sing to you. Hell, my own relatively unrefined tastes have changed numerous times in the last couple of years.

I have more free time than most, so every single knife on my rack is kept sharp enough to glide through basically anything. A couple of them came a bit thick (Shig and Denka - go figure) so they received extensive thinning to make them better. One of my knives, a Hinoura AS, is what most on here would call unreasonably thick behind the edge: it's 1.5mm 1cm up from the edge at the heel, at the center, and 2cm from the tip. Yet... it cuts really, really well. It takes a brutally sharp edge easily, and holds it really well - I brought it to HHT4 once, cut up 3 freaking butternut squash, and still passed that test. Hell, I just tested it now, and it's currently at HHT3, without me actually trying to make it so. Release and separation are great. I've never really had any issues with wedging. I could thin it, but it has amazing ku over a great nashiji and I don't want to screw that up. So, it stays the way it is.

 

[sumis]

Thank you for your opinion. It's precisely the reason I'm considering it, for being a laser, as well as the Sujihiki.

So I guess it is not terrific value.

to add to the impressions of KK: i have a 240 gyuto (migaki, not dama) and i find it excellent. really thin, cuts thick carrots without a whisper, easy enough to sharpen, holds the edge well, and i don't find it fragile (with my edge at least). f&f is excellent. but the properties that makes it really good to me have very much to do with it being a 240 gyuto specifically (length, weight, balance, profile, grind, nimbleness, etc). i'm personally not really interested in a shorter version, a nakiri or a petty, say, of the same make.

.