Whetstone Sharpening - what went wrong?

[drew4392]

Hi everyone--

Let me first say, I've read a TON and watched many videos before attempting my first sharpening. I thought I had it all figured out, but something went awry. Hoping you might be able to shed some light on my little issue.

Before taking my Shun knives to the Shun (1000/6000) stones, I bought a crappy $6 santoku from Target to practice on. Stones soaked, did my best to maintain the angle, sharpened each side for ~4 minutes on #1000 stone, and this thing was just as dull as before I started.

Ugh.

So... either I wasn't applying enough pressure (about 2-4lbs), didn't do it long enough on 1000 stone, or this knife is too crappy to be sharpening on a stone (packaging said it was high carbon steel). In the numerous videos I watched, chips were remedied with #1000, so I thought this was more than fine for a new blade.

One other thought is that I didn't feel a burr after completing the one side. Not sure if that's an indicator of anything. I read that is usually a sign that a side is finished.

Should I use a "proper" kitchen knife that is dull, or was the cheap-o santoku not tahe culprit?

thanks, all!!

 

[gaijin]

I'm a newbie, but I started with a King 1000/3000 stone and some old IKEA knives... never got a burr, never got them sharper. Then I bought the cheapest real carbon j-knife I could find on eBay, a Tojiro Shirogami - and I got the burr, and then a little later: sharpness very easy on the same stone...

I've seen the reports about cheap stainless knives being bad to practice on, and perhaps we both discovered that the same way.

 

[foody518]

Color the edge and above it with Sharpie. Keeps you from grinding away at stuff blindly. If you didn't get a burr it's possible you didn't get to the edge, and also 1k grit on a cheapo knife factory edge might not even totally take out the grind marks of whatever set the primary bevel. I sharpen other people's cheap stainless with some regularity, but end, not start, on a 1k-ish stone

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

Trying to learn to sharpen on a cheap stainless knife is a sure way to frustration, as you are discovering.

If you have not raised a burr, you have not reached the apex of the edge. This could be because you are holding it at too shallow an angle, or that the cheap stainless is really resistant to abrasion. Try a steeper angle and see if that lets you raise a burr.

My suggestion is to take gaijin's advice and get an inexpensive carbon knife to learn on. Or bite the bullet and learn on your Shuns.

Rick

 

[Krassi]

Yep had this frustration when is sharpend some cheap Stainless knifes for my friend.. It was pure hell! i cut in my stones nothing happend and i wanted to throw everything out of the window!
If this would have been my first try i would have been frustrated forever. so with a Carbonknife it worked as intended.

Seeya, daniel

 

[drew4392]

I'm a newbie, but I started with a King 1000/3000 stone and some old IKEA knives... never got a burr, never got them sharper. Then I bought the cheapest real carbon j-knife I could find on eBay, a Tojiro Shirogami - and I got the burr, and then a little later: sharpness very easy on the same stone...

I've seen the reports about cheap stainless knives being bad to practice on, and perhaps we both discovered that the same way.

Breath of fresh air when I read this. Thanks for sharing. Yea, I'm going to find a 'real' knife and start over.

Color the edge and above it with Sharpie. Keeps you from grinding away at stuff blindly. If you didn't get a burr it's possible you didn't get to the edge, and also 1k grit on a cheapo knife factory edge might not even totally take out the grind marks of whatever set the primary bevel. I sharpen other people's cheap stainless with some regularity, but end, not start, on a 1k-ish stone

Admittedly, I read but didn't use the sharpie method. I will, next time. Thanks. Are you suggesting that a rougher stone be used on the cheaper stainless knives, regardless of condition on edge? 200? 400? If so, I'll order one to keep on hand.

Trying to learn to sharpen on a cheap stainless knife is a sure way to frustration, as you are discovering.

If you have not raised a burr, you have not reached the apex of the edge. This could be because you are holding it at too shallow an angle, or that the cheap stainless is really resistant to abrasion. Try a steeper angle and see if that lets you raise a burr.

My suggestion is to take gaijin's advice and get an inexpensive carbon knife to learn on. Or bite the bullet and learn on your Shuns.

Rick

Yep, definitely getting a proper knife to practice with. I don't have the cojones to take my Shuns to the stone, quite yet. My buddy practiced on his miyabis first time around, and turned out great. Ain't happenin' with my Shuns I used an inclinometer to ensure angle was correct, so that shouldn't be an issue. Think it was the s***ty knife I was using.

Yep had this frustration when is sharpend some cheap Stainless knifes for my friend.. It was pure hell! i cut in my stones nothing happend and i wanted to throw everything out of the window!
If this would have been my first try i would have been frustrated forever. so with a Carbonknife it worked as intended.

Seeya, daniel

Absolutely my first thought. Back and neck were sore from bending over and tense as if I was performing surgery for the first time... then nothing! Dull as heck. Was about to dump it all in the trash.





Couple general questions, if you guys don't mind:

What sort of pressure should I be applying? I'm right around 2-3lbs.

Is the presence of a burr the key indicator as to when I should switch sides? I've seen videos suggest anything from a few minutes per side, up to 10.



Thanks!
Andrew

 

[foody518]

@drew4392 the Sharpie trick is exceedingly helpful to building your skills and awareness early on. I've sharpened new cheap knives and seen that the grind marks can be pretty coarse.
At the time I started sharpening, hadn't seen the advice out here to not start on a coarse stone early on for beginners, but I also think that was why I managed to get a burr on thick cheap stainless knives, usually thick behind the edge as well. Bottom line for me is that for such knives, it sucks but you can do it. Thinking about the time it took on my 500 grit stone, it would have been a nightmare doing that on a 1k
You should work to getting the burr and before switching sides. Go at a really obtuse angle to quicken the process if you want, just to speed up getting that burr and understanding the look and feeling
How were you ascertaining 'correct angle' on the practice knife?

 

[Benuser]

Pressure is OK fairly behind the edge, but not at the very edge.

 

[CompE]

The first knives that I sharpened were cheap stainless knives. Even if you do everything right, don't expect to get the knife sharper than new; if you manage to improve the edge at all, don't expect that to last for more than the first cut. I don't think that learning on cheap stainless is completely worthless; you can start getting an idea of what it feels like and sounds like on the stone when you are hitting the right angle, and you can start developing some muscle memory at low risk.

With a 1K stone you should be able to create a burr that you can feel, even if it is a cheap stainless steel knife. Use a sharpie on the edge bevel to make sure that you are hitting it down to the edge. It's possible that you formed a burr but just don't know how to feel it. Another possibility is that some stones need to be flattened before they because usable in order to remove the "crust". Can you see any swarf on the stone as you sharpen?

 

[chinacats]

All advice is excellent. Stop paying attention to time...it's the least relevant factor. Decent steel and a couple of passes at the correct angle and you'll raise a burr. I believe the Sharpie would be most valuable.

 

[WingKKF]

I think if you are sharpening cheap stainless knives, you should start with a coarse stone - 500 grit or lower or better yet, a belt grinder. I personally start with a 500 grit on all my knives irregardless of steel though others who are particular would disagree and only touch up with higher grits. If it's a $6 knife from Target and it says high carbon steel, you can take it to mean high carbon stainless steel. Generally they don't make carbon steel knives for the mass market anymore.

 

[drew4392]

How were you ascertaining 'correct angle' on the practice knife?

I have a magnetic inclinometer that I used to verify angle, and I just find the height on my thumb and maintain the distance between the stone and the spine of the blade.

Can you see any swarf on the stone as you sharpen?

Nada. Folks were saying it is tough to sharpen a cheapie knife and don't let is discourage me... and it's easier on a real, carbon steel knife. But... after seeing a couple of videos and other people on the forum saying it's not the knife, in fact, has me banging my head against the wall. I'll the post the discouraging videos below.

All advice is excellent. Stop paying attention to time...it's the least relevant factor. Decent steel and a couple of passes at the correct angle and you'll raise a burr. I believe the Sharpie would be most valuable.

Definitely doing the sharpie trick next time around. Thanks!




So.... it was pointed out to me that the crappiness of the knife isn't the culprit. Ugh. And there's video proof to prove it.... this guy sharpens a $1 knife to razor status.

[video=youtube;7dFFEBnY0Bo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dFFEBnY0Bo[/video]



And good 'ol Bobby Kramer makes it look like a walk in the park. This video has me intrigued because if it only takes 5 minutes as he says, I'm stoked. But... the fact that I got nowhere after more than double that has me royally discouraged. Maybe a lower grit, rougher stone is what's needed for the crappy knife?? Just to get the edge and burr I need, before taking it to the 1k and 6k.

[video=youtube;kFhMGJYhYpU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFhMGJYhYpU[/video]

 

[Krassi]

Hi!

The knife is not dull from Start , he starts with coarse stones below 1000 i think (dondt have those)
Actually the only proof is cutting 3 bottles what he did.. well wow not ..
So it will not help you in your kitchen and its not the idea to get a show edge that is wrecked after some cuts.

.... check this guy! he uses a "mushashi katana" and even cuts more bottles https://youtu.be/f_oTUVtUqcM?t=92
Well i dondt think he uses something that is really sharp.

Oh and Mr Kramer also uses some of his own nice Carbon knifes that work wonderful on his stones and he is making a nice touch up but not a full regrind.
And he is a real pro in sharpening with may years of experience!

So please be not be to much impressed with videos!
Also flying a plane looks easy in a video, but if you dondt have any experience it will end not really good

As mentioned with some 70s molybdenum Solinger knifes i was starting to scream because that damned mono steel was resistent like a tank.
Seeya , daniel

 

[jessf]

Try practicing on your good knives as each knife will give different feed back. If you're worried about damaging your good knives then start with the higher grit stone and use the sharpie idea mentioned before. 20 passes each side using a 6000 grit stone will do less damage than a coarser stone if you catch my drift. Once you've got the feel for the angle that erases the sharpie, go back to the 1000 grit and start to actually sharpen. Time is the real culprit, if it was kind of sharp when you started and it's no sharper after 5 mins then stop and adjust your technique because more time spent doing the wrong thing will just damage the knife. Once you've got it, it will take more time to get the stones out and soaked than it will to freshen up an edge.

 

[Nemo]

First thing is to be certain you are hitting the edge. Do use the sharpie trick (get some acetone to take off residual sharpie afterwards).
Second thing is to try to maintain a consistent angle. Watch Jon's videos on "how to hold a knife while sharpening". The way he holds it helps to maintain a consistent angle. Right hand holds the angle, left hand moves the knife over the stone.

Which angle to use? As long as you are hitting the edge, the exact angle isn't so important.

 

[Marek07]

@drew4392 - excellent advice here.

Stainless is a hard route when starting and starting on a 1k stone is p***ing in the wind. I'm only so-so but was constantly frustrated when asked by friends to sharpen their basic stainless knives. My basic set up was Naniwa Chosera set: 400, 1k, 3k. The 400 seemed good a good start to me on my knives but even a lot of time and effort on cheap SS produced minimal results.

Recently I bought the Watanabe 220 for repair work. Took it to a stainless and finally got results I thought I'd need a grinder for. Increasing the angle initially also helped my cause. Bottom line - as many have pointed out, starting out with SS knives is seriously frustrating and will definitely not produce quick results.

 

[Nemo]

Recently I bought the Watanabe 220 for repair work. Took it to a stainless and finally got results I thought I'd need a grinder for. Increasing the angle initially also helped my cause. Bottom line - as many have pointed out, starting out with SS knives is seriously frustrating and will definitely not produce quick results.

I might get a stone like this for thinning western SS. Is it a soaker or S&G?

 

[Marek07]

I might get a stone like this for thinning western SS. Is it a soaker or S&G?

Definitely a soaker - and a thirsty one at that. But it's become an important part of my arsenal. If you add his #2 AI #1000 stone (a very good S&G IMO), you've got most SS covered. You can then leave the Choseras and Jnats for important tasks.

As @foody518 posted - "I sharpen other people's cheap stainless with some regularity, but end, not start, on a 1k-ish stone."

 

[GeneH]

I did a lot of work on cheap stainless with a whetstone, using water after getting the oil out of it. Friable as heck, and you can easily see on the knife how your bevel is doing because of the massive scratches. SiC cuts pretty fast. Also will teach you how not to scratch the heck out of your good knives.

Try those cheap plastic clip on guides to get a consistent angle until you get some muscle memory and can feel the bevel with out the guide.


Carbon Forgecraft knives are fun and will give you a fantastic edge. Go abuse them by chopping firewood and have more fun cleaning up the edge.

 

[milkbaby]

As everybody said, use the sharpie to see where you're sharpening. Don't sharpen blindly for minutes at a time but check where you're hitting after just one or two passes on the stone. The sharpie will clearly tell you what's going on. You can reapply it as often as you want just let it dry before going back to the stone.

To get sharp, you must remove enough metal to form a clean apex at the cutting edge. If you never get to the apex, then you will never get the knife really sharp. A burr forms when you get to the apex and make a small fatigued edge bend over from the pressure. Technically, you don't need to form a burr, but it's the easiest way to know that you've sharpened down to the edge and are ready to work on the other side.

For cheapo knives that are dull, I like to start with some inexpensive carborundum or silicon oxide stones that I got for $2.99 at the Asian market.

 

[Unstoppabo]

Also likely that you're changing the angle of the bevel so there's probably a lot of tough steel to remove before you get to the edge. I like a fine diamond plate (~800 grit) for resetting bevels on stainless. Coarser stones work too but when working with something tough, they dish before a bevel can be formed.

Just hold whatever angle feels most natural and go till you feel a burr. SS burr will probably not break off by itself so it should be easy to tell when you're there.

 

[psfred]

Cheap knives are not always a good way to start. I've seen some that had amazingly bad edges (90 degree inclusive very rough edge, flat grind) that required power tools to get anywhere near a proper angle. Most of them need some considerable work on a belt sander before you can actually sharpen them, and typically the steel is pretty soft so the edge fails very quickly when you do get one.

You would do much better to find a well made carbon steel knife on eBay (even the rather rough looking Korean hand make ones) to learn on. Grinding a basic bevel by hand may persuade you to quit before you learn how. All the major Japanese makers produce fairly inexpensive knives that will be similar to your Shun and let you learn much more easily.

I would personally recommend Tojiro DPs over Shuns, they are the same material, are much cheaper, and are always very well made. Not pretty, but very good knives for the price. If you already have them, the point is moot, though.

Peter

 

[KimBronnum]

It takes several hours of practice to be able keep the right angle all along the blade.
In my experience you should take care not to use too much pressure. At the beginning you should focus on learning about the basic motorics (is than an English expression?).
When you are able to hit the right part of the blade fairly consistently, you will be able to create a burr. When you have an even burr all over the edge, you are able to sharpen the blade. The rest comes with experience. I have probably seen all of Jon´s and Maksim´s videos about 10 times. Each time seeing more and more details. In the beginning I used 1-1,5 hours to sharpen a Global gyuto. My coarsest stone was a 1000 grit
- Kim

 

[Benuser]

Just on a side note: the Global is probably the worst to start with as it isn't easy to raise a burr on -- certainly with a 1k -- and even more difficult to get rid of it.