Which Guyoto to buy

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by MartinAV, Jun 18, 2019.

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums by donating:

  1. Jun 18, 2019 #1

    MartinAV

    MartinAV

    MartinAV

    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2019
    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Norway
    Hello! Hope this is the right place to post.

    Yes, I know this is probably a title you have seen a thousand times before, and I have seen through a couple of threads, but I need more specific answers. I have some special requirements, so I hope it's not a huge problem.

    LOCATION
    What country are you in?
    Norway


    KNIFE TYPE
    What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
    Pretty set on a Guyoto.

    Are you right or left handed?
    Right

    Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
    Not a must, but i like the look of Japanese handles.

    What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
    210-250 mm.
    Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
    Not sure.
    What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
    Don't know my absolute maximum, but I was thinking about 200-300$. If a knife has value in longevity I might be able to extend my budget.


    KNIFE USE
    Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
    At home.

    What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
    Mostly slicing and chopping vegetables, slicing cooked and uncooked meats without bones.

    What knife, if any, are you replacing?
    Victorinox Santoku and chef knife.

    Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
    Pinch grip.

    What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
    I think i both push and pull cut.

    What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

    Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
    I like simple aesthetics, I don't like layered Damascus. If they look a bit rustic as well, I don't mind. I want to pay for quality, not aesthetics.

    Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
    Light knife, I want a thin blade, I think a bit forward balance is preferable, but not a must.

    Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
    Ease of use is very important. All of the above, but some reactivity would be okay.

    Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
    Some edge retention would be good, but I only use it at home, so I don't think it's the most important factor.


    KNIFE MAINTENANCE
    Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
    Wood.
    Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
    Not yet.
    If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
    Yes.
    Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
    Yes.

    I like profiles that are straight for the first half, then more curved in the second half.
    I also like them to be a bit tall.

    Takeda knives sound right for me. Thin blade, easy to sharpen (straight edge?), the right aesthetics.
    The problem here is the price tag, and something i read about the quality reducing in recent years. What do you guys think about Takeda? Is there anything like Takeda out there, just a bit cheaper, and not unstable in quality? (If that's true). I also looked at Shibata Kotetsu knives, but I'm a bit unsure about the profile being so straight, it seems like a great performer though.

    I'm also curious about the amount of maintenance of the knife I'm buying.

    Anyways, if the knife is right, the budget is flexible.
    Here are the brands available to me from an online store in Norway:
    Sorry for my English, and thank you so much for taking the time to read this.
     
  2. Jun 23, 2019 #2

    Nick112

    Nick112

    Nick112

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    73
    Location:
    Sweden
    Hi martin , hope some of the more knowledgable forum members can advice :)
     
  3. Jun 23, 2019 #3

    Elliot

    Elliot

    Elliot

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2019
    Messages:
    404
    Location:
    Washington
    Welcome.

    So, of the brands you linked, I really like Shibata's R2 line (https://www.skarpekniver.com/21cm-kokkekniv-r2-shibata-kotetsu.html/)
    Be advised, it is thin and definitely in "laser" territory. However, stainless so ease of maintenance and the R2 steel will hold an edge for an incredible amount of time.

    That being said, a couple other options to consider, as getting into sharpening is a whole different ballgame and, for some, more fun than the knives themselves. A GREAT starter gyuto would be the Munetoshi from JNS (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/munetoshi-kurouchi-gyuto-240mm/). Well within budget and if you hit a certain amount, Maksim ships for free. It also happens that his 1000 grit whetstone is, at least in my opinion, best in class. A really basic sharpening set up can be just that 1k stone and a strop. White #2 steel is one of the easier to sharpen steels, so that will help with your learning curve there.

    And lastly, keep an eye on BST (https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/forums/buy-sell-trade-knife-only.33/), as you there are deals to be had. As an example, @preizzo (one of the nicest dudes on the forum) is currently selling a Munetoshi and also has a Toyama up for sale. Toyama is, again just one guy's opinion, the best sub-$500 gyuto on the market. Blue #2 steel will have more edge retention than white, but still probably a little easier to sharpen than R2.

    Hope that helps.

    Elliot
     
    Carl Kotte likes this.
  4. Jun 23, 2019 #4

    JaVa

    JaVa

    JaVa

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,157
    My top picks from your list would be:

    Depending on your preference of size the Takamura R2 210 is a ridiculous performer for the money. It is THE laser and a long time forum favourite. Usually can micro chip in the beginning but after couple sharpenings will settle down. Holds an edge really well, reasonably easy to sharpen too. Though no straight first half / flat spot in the edge profile, but a slight gradual curve. Super light too, The benchmark laser!

    Many call the Shibata Kotetsu "the 240 version of Takamura R2". Yeah it's a K-tip with a Japanese handle, but the edge retention, lightness and laser performance is there. So if you want a bigger version of the Takamura, the Shibita get's you close.

    Have a look at the Yu Kurosaki. Another solid R2. Not a laser though, more of a middleweight. Another gradually curved edge profile.

    The Tanaka Damascus VG10 is great too. I know it's only VG10 and some frown upon that, but Tanaka knows his way around that steel and really squeezes the best possible properties out of it with his heat treat magic. I love his convex grind. Cut's smooth like a laser with middleweight food release. Fit and finish can be a bit rough at times and will have the most belly in it's edge profile of the group. Kinda overpriced at that store. The same knife with a western handle can be found at a better price from Knives and Stones.
    http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-vg10-damascus-gyuto-240mm-western-handle/
     
  5. Jun 24, 2019 #5

    chinacats

    chinacats

    chinacats

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2012
    Messages:
    6,771
    I would steer you to the JNS website. Japanesenaturalstones.com

    As to the Takeda they can be a bit hit or miss... I'd suggest it for a later purchase.

    I think you should think a bit more about stainless requirements...basically don't prep your meal, eat and clean your knife after or you should get stainless. My preference is non stainless and good sanitation.
     
  6. Jun 24, 2019 #6

    McMan

    McMan

    McMan

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2018
    Messages:
    664
    "I want to pay for quality, not aesthetics."
    Good!--and Good news--there's no shortage of good solid performers in your budget of $200-300.
    You said that you wanted a “light” knife, so this takes a handful off the table and leaves you somewhere in the land between laser and midweight.

    I like Wakui as a first gyuto. Available at Cleancut.se. They only have the iron-clad not the stainless-clad in stock in 240; if you want stainless cladding, you’ll have to go to K&S (see below). I like Wakui for a first knife because the edge is thin but there is still a bit of meat to the spine, so the grind has a nice convex, and is not overly delicate. He’s not a “hot” maker anymore, and fell of the radar in terms of popularity, but I’ve never seen any complaints on the boards about consistency or quality. Great value. Amidweight not a lightweight, though.

    Shibata, also at Cleancut, has a strong reputation as a laser. I haven’t used one so can’t comment; others here have good things to say.

    Tanaka Ginsan Lite is another good fit, especially because it’s stainless. It’s available from K&S (Knives and Stones) and with a few different handle options. Ginsan is nice stainless, which Tanaka does a good job with. I like Wakui’s knives more than Tanaka, but I think I’m in the minority here…

    Is it imperative that you buy from a vendor in Norway?
     
  7. Jun 24, 2019 #7

    Carl Kotte

    Carl Kotte

    Carl Kotte

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    341
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
  8. Jun 25, 2019 #8

    MartinAV

    MartinAV

    MartinAV

    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2019
    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Norway
    Thanks for answering everybody! It's possible for me to buy from foreign websites, but this would include a 25% toll fee for me in Norway. Skarpekniver is quite expensive though, but i like the idea of supporting a speciality store in Norway, they are quite rare to come by.

    For which knife to buy, I'm doing research on the options recommended. Thanks for responding!
     
  9. Jun 25, 2019 #9

    daddy yo yo

    daddy yo yo

    daddy yo yo

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,401
    Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think you would have to pay +25% toll if you purchase within the EU (japanesenaturalstones, cleancut, dictum, and many, many more).
     
  10. Jun 25, 2019 #10

    Carl Kotte

    Carl Kotte

    Carl Kotte

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    341
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    No EU for Norway, but I also thought that Norway had a sweet deal in terms of a Free Trade Agreement with the EU countries. Am I mistaken?
     
  11. Jun 25, 2019 #11

    Tristam Douglas

    Tristam Douglas

    Tristam Douglas

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    England
    Norway is not a member of the EU the political institution but are members of the EU single market. No import duties from other single market country.
     
    Carl Kotte likes this.
  12. Jun 25, 2019 #12

    Carl Kotte

    Carl Kotte

    Carl Kotte

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    341
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Great!
     
  13. Jun 25, 2019 #13

    Tristam Douglas

    Tristam Douglas

    Tristam Douglas

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    England
  14. Jun 25, 2019 #14

    Carl Kotte

    Carl Kotte

    Carl Kotte

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    341
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Oh, I am not OP - and I live in Sweden so all EU for me. Still, a lot of VAT anyway since it is hard to resist looking at what is offered outside the EU...
     
  15. Jun 25, 2019 #15

    MartinAV

    MartinAV

    MartinAV

    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2019
    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Norway
    It's the VAT I am talking about, just was not sure about the translation. It's 25%.. I'm 100% sure about this, I do live here. It's on used items as well as new. I am not sure if stores like Skarpekniver.no has to pay VAT. If that's the case, I might as well order from an online store, because it will be included in the price.
     
  16. Jun 25, 2019 #16

    gstriftos

    gstriftos

    gstriftos

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2018
    Messages:
    72
    Location:
    Athens, Greece
    All shops that make retail sales and are based in EU (or EU single market, like Norway) are obliged by EU laws to display prices inclusive VAT of the country they reside.
    So yes bying inside EU you do not have to pay extra VAT as it has being accredited and is included in the value of a product.
    Note: Switzerland, though geographically is inside Europe is not a part of the Union so all imports are going though customs procedures (I do not know if this is the case for Germany and Austria since they used to have a no customs agreement on CIF value of goods somewhere around 150 euro, probably German members can enlighten on on that).


    On a general note, I see that cutlery related items (knives, stones, etc) tend to be much more expensive in UK, Norway and Greece (Greece I can tell you first hand that there is not a lot of buying power or demand for quality knives, so shops offer what the customers want) even if you take into account the difference in VAT per country.
     
  17. Jun 25, 2019 #17

    Tristam Douglas

    Tristam Douglas

    Tristam Douglas

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    England
    Exactly you only pay your VAT not VAT in the country you are buying from.

    Because the pound is so weak atm it is pushing up prices here in the UK.

    Another issue is that when the pound plummeted after the 2016 referendum a lot of EU customers took advantage and cleaned out huge amounts of stock from the UK. When you are dealing with hand crafted knives you just can't restock at the drop of a hat.
     
    Carl Kotte likes this.
  18. Jun 25, 2019 #18

    gstriftos

    gstriftos

    gstriftos

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2018
    Messages:
    72
    Location:
    Athens, Greece
    Eh, nope you pay the VAT of the country where the shop resides. For example if I buy a product from Germany and pay 100 euro (including VAT 19%) the same product in Greece, in equivalence to VAT 24%, should cost 104.20 euro ( net value of the product is the same).
     
  19. Jun 25, 2019 #19

    idemhj

    idemhj

    idemhj

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    144
    Location:
    Denmark
    Yes, if your country is a member of the EU and the shop is also locatede in the EU, but Norway is not EU
     
  20. Jun 25, 2019 #20

    Tristam Douglas

    Tristam Douglas

    Tristam Douglas

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    England
    That makes more sense. Thanks fo
    Norway is part of the single market.
     
  21. Jun 25, 2019 #21

    idemhj

    idemhj

    idemhj

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    144
    Location:
    Denmark
    Well yes, so perhaps I’m simply wrong. International VAT is a PITA to figure out. Anyway, this tread has already been derailed plenty, so I will leave it at that... :rolleyes:
     
    Carl Kotte likes this.
  22. Jun 25, 2019 #22

    MartinAV

    MartinAV

    MartinAV

    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2019
    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Norway
    "When ordering items from foreign online stores, in most cases you must pay 25 per cent VAT when the item arrives in Norway. If you are buying clothes, you also have to pay duty."

    - https://www.toll.no/en/online-shopping/

    This is the case in Norway. I don't know the rules connected with the EU and so on, but this is just the case. I believe it's for the sake of not weakening the Norwegian economy. Norway is quite expensive compared to most other countries, but the salaries are high as well. If it was not for the 25% VAT in toll, everybody would buy everything they could from online stores outside of Norway.

    I live here, so I have firsthand experience.
     

Share This Page