The OP was not looking for a minivan. They were looking for higher end nice looking sporty car. They just want to only put gas in the tank once a year.
Which Knife Should I Buy?
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LOL much better analogy.
The best gift for your wife, in my opinion, would be for you to get her a nice knife and commit to learning basic sharpening skills so she can always have a sharp knife. It’s not rocket science, and you don’t have to be the best to keep a working edge on a kitchen knife. The way to learn is practice (and YouTube), so something like VG-10 that’s both forgiving relatively easy to sharpen (albeit needs a little more attention) would be the way to start I think.
I bought a carbon knife (AS), and then bought another less expensive with softer steel to learn to sharpen on. What I learned is that the definition of sharp changes dramatically when you open your eyes to what’s possible. I doubt that you would be satisfied with a once or twice a year, but you might be with every month or every other month.
So basically what I’m saying is, if you refuse to learn basic sharpening skills then don’t buy expensive knives, and don’t take that first bite from the tree of knowledge. Buy cheap and buy often, like Victorinox with a Chef’s Choice blade grinder. This will give you a moderately sharp knife consistently but without expense or flair of fine cutlery, and no learning curve or discipline needed.
I bought a carbon knife (AS), and then bought another less expensive with softer steel to learn to sharpen on. What I learned is that the definition of sharp changes dramatically when you open your eyes to what’s possible. I doubt that you would be satisfied with a once or twice a year, but you might be with every month or every other month.
So basically what I’m saying is, if you refuse to learn basic sharpening skills then don’t buy expensive knives, and don’t take that first bite from the tree of knowledge. Buy cheap and buy often, like Victorinox with a Chef’s Choice blade grinder. This will give you a moderately sharp knife consistently but without expense or flair of fine cutlery, and no learning curve or discipline needed.
PaulE
Member
So after way more research than I thought I'd put into this, I decided to go with a nice set from Costco I saw on sale because it included a self-sharpening knife block. Kidding.
My wife bought a Shun as a gift for someone in the past. So part of my search is a need to one-up her, in a way, with this gift. I do want to make her knife use more enjoyable and prolong time to dullness. As mentioned, I'd like the sports car assembled by hand that only needs annual refueling (and I'm ok if its top speed declines from 200 to 100 over the year). I think I'll be ok with sharpening once-a-year (mail-in vs drive) and I might try some minor upkeep every few months if I won't be able to do much damage (eg "balsa strop loaded with 1 micron diamond compound").
I think I would feel more confident buying something at this point if there was some agreed-upon knife or stainless metal that has superior edge retention and high toughness. Looking at knifesteelnerds.com made me think "MagnaCut" would be the obvious choice, but no one mentioned it. SG2 and VG10 look equivalent, but VG10 seems harder to find. ZDP-189 is the hardest stainless but might be not tough enough. Rex45/Hap40 is harder than SG2/VG10 and has about the same toughness but it's not stainless.
For all those who recommended the different metals, would you say get SG2 for stainless and Hap40 if I want to risk rusting? More specifically, I'd love to know what kind of usable life I can get with SG2 before it really needs sharpening. If it can still slice tomatoes at 1 year, I'm sold. If only Hap40 can slice tomatoes at 1 year, I'll go that route.
Again, thank you all for your input.
For anyone following along, here are the list of suggested knives (except some that are out of stock).
Myojin Riki SG2/R2 HRC62 -nice blade, handle options, Myojin sharpener/maker [tostadas, Cliff, mpier]
Sukenari SG2/R2 HRC63 -brushed blade, rosewood handle [Cliff, Justinv, Delat]
Blazen Ryu SG2 HRC? -clad/brushed/Nashiji blade, walnut handle [Cliff]
Kagekiyo Ginsan Silver3 HRC? -nice blade, walnut handle, unknown metal & HRC [Cliff]
Yoshida [sounds so cool but cannot find in stock] [Justinv]
Gihei Zuika ZDP-189 HRC66 -plain clad blade, plain handle, metal maybe too brittle, couldn't find Hap40 [Justinv]
Yoshikane SKD HRC? -cool blade but will patina, chestnut handle, unknown metal [mpier]
Messermeister Kawashima SG2 HRC65 -plain clad blade, western handle but good they left out the bolsters, free mail-in sharpening, weight not listed [mengwong, rstcso]
Hattori Forums FH VG10 HRC60 -plain blade, bolsters on handle, heavier [MrHiggins]
My wife bought a Shun as a gift for someone in the past. So part of my search is a need to one-up her, in a way, with this gift. I do want to make her knife use more enjoyable and prolong time to dullness. As mentioned, I'd like the sports car assembled by hand that only needs annual refueling (and I'm ok if its top speed declines from 200 to 100 over the year). I think I'll be ok with sharpening once-a-year (mail-in vs drive) and I might try some minor upkeep every few months if I won't be able to do much damage (eg "balsa strop loaded with 1 micron diamond compound").
I think I would feel more confident buying something at this point if there was some agreed-upon knife or stainless metal that has superior edge retention and high toughness. Looking at knifesteelnerds.com made me think "MagnaCut" would be the obvious choice, but no one mentioned it. SG2 and VG10 look equivalent, but VG10 seems harder to find. ZDP-189 is the hardest stainless but might be not tough enough. Rex45/Hap40 is harder than SG2/VG10 and has about the same toughness but it's not stainless.
For all those who recommended the different metals, would you say get SG2 for stainless and Hap40 if I want to risk rusting? More specifically, I'd love to know what kind of usable life I can get with SG2 before it really needs sharpening. If it can still slice tomatoes at 1 year, I'm sold. If only Hap40 can slice tomatoes at 1 year, I'll go that route.
Again, thank you all for your input.
For anyone following along, here are the list of suggested knives (except some that are out of stock).
Myojin Riki SG2/R2 HRC62 -nice blade, handle options, Myojin sharpener/maker [tostadas, Cliff, mpier]
Sukenari SG2/R2 HRC63 -brushed blade, rosewood handle [Cliff, Justinv, Delat]
Blazen Ryu SG2 HRC? -clad/brushed/Nashiji blade, walnut handle [Cliff]
Kagekiyo Ginsan Silver3 HRC? -nice blade, walnut handle, unknown metal & HRC [Cliff]
Yoshida [sounds so cool but cannot find in stock] [Justinv]
Gihei Zuika ZDP-189 HRC66 -plain clad blade, plain handle, metal maybe too brittle, couldn't find Hap40 [Justinv]
Yoshikane SKD HRC? -cool blade but will patina, chestnut handle, unknown metal [mpier]
Messermeister Kawashima SG2 HRC65 -plain clad blade, western handle but good they left out the bolsters, free mail-in sharpening, weight not listed [mengwong, rstcso]
Hattori Forums FH VG10 HRC60 -plain blade, bolsters on handle, heavier [MrHiggins]
MagnaCut has a great reputation but you just don’t see it that much - it’s relatively rare like ZDP and Hap40.
You might ping @MSicardCutlery and ask him about making you something in Apex Ultra if he still has any available.
I seriously doubt anyone on this forum has used any of their knives regularly for a year without sharpening, so I don’t think you’re going to get any real anecdotal evidence. I have a couple of the knives in your list above (Myojin R2 and Yoshikane SKD) and they both have great edge retention, but I only use them maybe once or twice a month so I can’t comment on how well they’d do under your circumstances.
I will say the geometry/grind of the Yoshikane and Myojin are thin enough that they’d likely mask a dull edge quite well. Anyway, since you’re looking at R2 knives take a look at Yu Kurosaki as well - his knives are also very thin and the hammered patterns can be quite striking.
You might ping @MSicardCutlery and ask him about making you something in Apex Ultra if he still has any available.
I seriously doubt anyone on this forum has used any of their knives regularly for a year without sharpening, so I don’t think you’re going to get any real anecdotal evidence. I have a couple of the knives in your list above (Myojin R2 and Yoshikane SKD) and they both have great edge retention, but I only use them maybe once or twice a month so I can’t comment on how well they’d do under your circumstances.
I will say the geometry/grind of the Yoshikane and Myojin are thin enough that they’d likely mask a dull edge quite well. Anyway, since you’re looking at R2 knives take a look at Yu Kurosaki as well - his knives are also very thin and the hammered patterns can be quite striking.
Well let's see if I can't add some for consideration...
https://strataportland.com/collecti...-th-damascus-210mm-kiritsuke-gyuto-red-handle
https://strataportland.com/collections/gyuto-chef/products/ryusen-bontenunryu-210mm-damascus-gyuto
https://strataportland.com/collecti...10mm-kiritsuke-gyuto-mono-curley-maple-handle
https://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=99142
https://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=106070
https://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=97536
https://sharpknifeshop.com/collections/gyuto/products/ryusen-hamono-bonten-gyuto-210-mm
https://sharpknifeshop.com/collections/gyuto/products/yu-kurosaki-senko-gyuto-210-mm
https://sharpknifeshop.com/collections/gyuto/products/takeshi-saji-tsuchime-gyuto-210mm
https://strataportland.com/collecti...-th-damascus-210mm-kiritsuke-gyuto-red-handle
https://strataportland.com/collections/gyuto-chef/products/ryusen-bontenunryu-210mm-damascus-gyuto
https://strataportland.com/collecti...10mm-kiritsuke-gyuto-mono-curley-maple-handle
https://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=99142
https://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=106070
https://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=97536
https://sharpknifeshop.com/collections/gyuto/products/ryusen-hamono-bonten-gyuto-210-mm
https://sharpknifeshop.com/collections/gyuto/products/yu-kurosaki-senko-gyuto-210-mm
https://sharpknifeshop.com/collections/gyuto/products/takeshi-saji-tsuchime-gyuto-210mm
I have number of knives that I sharpen whenever I see the owner. Over the last few years, due to covid restrictions, there have been a few times that it has been over a year between sharpening. I can tell you that SG2, HAP40 and whatever steel is in Tojiro HSPS are pretty dull after a year.
As metioned, my definition of "dull" is probably different to most peoples' definition. I didn't test the knives on tomato before sharpening so I don't know if they will cut a tomato. I expect they would, but not as easily as I am used to.
Be aware that how much the edge degrades over a year will be affected by many factors such as what you are cutting, how much you are cutting, your cutting technique, which board you are using, how much acid you expose the edge to (especially for carbon and to a lesser extent, semistainless knives)...
Also, needless to say, don't put any knives that you want to stay sharp in the dishwasher.
You should have a look at some of the Sukenari offerings in high alloy steels (HAP40, ZDP-189 and SG2). If you were interested in a Western handle, I'd say to take a look at Ryusen Blazen- a beautifully finished knife with a well executed thinner grind which is beautifully balanced.
As metioned, my definition of "dull" is probably different to most peoples' definition. I didn't test the knives on tomato before sharpening so I don't know if they will cut a tomato. I expect they would, but not as easily as I am used to.
Be aware that how much the edge degrades over a year will be affected by many factors such as what you are cutting, how much you are cutting, your cutting technique, which board you are using, how much acid you expose the edge to (especially for carbon and to a lesser extent, semistainless knives)...
Also, needless to say, don't put any knives that you want to stay sharp in the dishwasher.
You should have a look at some of the Sukenari offerings in high alloy steels (HAP40, ZDP-189 and SG2). If you were interested in a Western handle, I'd say to take a look at Ryusen Blazen- a beautifully finished knife with a well executed thinner grind which is beautifully balanced.
Just get some fancy Shun made with SG2 and send it back to be sharpened. Now that I think about it, buy 2. So you can still have a knife to use while the other one goes on a trip to Shun for sharpening.
PaulE
Member
If I were to go that route, I think I'd be happiest with this Messermeister that seems to be made in Japan. Has anyone used it? Or is considered in the same category as Shun, Miyabi, etc.?My list is growing instead of shrinking!
I still don't know whether to choose SG2, VG10, Hap40, ZDP, Silver3.... If none of the knives below stand out for edge retention and resistance to chipping then I guess I'll go purely on looks (or fold and go with Messermeister).Myojin Riki SG2/R2 HRC62 -nice blade, handle options, Myojin sharpener/maker [tostadas, Cliff, mpier]
Sukenari SG2/R2 HRC63 -brushed blade, rosewood handle [Cliff, Justinv, Delat]
Blazen Ryu SG2 HRC? -clad/brushed/Nashiji blade, walnut handle [Cliff]
Kagekiyo Ginsan Silver3 HRC? -nice blade, walnut handle, unknown metal & HRC [Cliff]
Yoshida [sounds so cool but cannot find in stock] [Justinv]
Gihei Zuika ZDP-189 HRC66 -plain clad blade, plain handle, metal maybe too brittle, couldn't find Hap40 [Justinv]
Yoshikane SKD HRC? -cool blade but will patina, chestnut handle, unknown metal [mpier]
Messermeister Kawashima SG2 HRC65 -plain clad blade, western handle but good they left out the bolsters, free mail-in sharpening, weight not listed [mengwong, rstcso]
Hattori Forums FH VG10 HRC60 -plain blade, bolsters on handle, heavier [MrHiggins]
Yu Kurosaki Senko 1 2 3 SG2/R2 HRC62 -unique blade, unique handle [Delat]
Hitohira VG10 HRC? -Damascus blade, red handle [HumbleHomeCook]
Ryusen Bonten Unryu VG10 HRC60 -Damascus with spirals, dark handle [HumbleHomeCook]
Ryusen Fukakuryu ATS314 HRC? -Damascus, Maple handle [HumbleHomeCook]
Migaki Sukenari SG2 HRC64 -plain clad, dark handle [HumbleHomeCook]
Sam Reed AEB-L HRC? -AEB-L people say is hard to get right [HumbleHomeCook]
San Mai Ohishi VG10 HRC60 -Damascus, light handle [HumbleHomeCook]
Ryusen Hamono Bonten VG10 HRC60 -Damascus, dark handle [HumbleHomeCook]
Yu Kurosaki SG2 HRC63 -clad,stamped blade, walnut handle [HumbleHomeCook]
Takeshi Saji Tsuchime R2 HRC61 -heavy, pitted blade, nice handle [HumbleHomeCook]
The good news is perhaps the list above will be useful to someone looking for the same answers.
If Sir would just follow me this way into the shop – careful, don’t cut yourself on the sword – however Ma’am may not fully appreciate the substance behind the style of the steels on offer, unless we can somehow inveigle her into spending a lunch hour reading a truly heartwarming, oh-so-wholesome father quest the equal of anything from Marvel nowadays? (The man, the steel)
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@PaulE if you really want edge retention there is only one answer, and that is ZDP-189.
https://www.knivesandstones.com.au/...nari-zdp-189-damascus-k-tip-gyuto-210mm-240mm
Grab this guy from James at knives and stones. He is in australia but ships to the USA, and shipping is reasonable at $14. You will get ZDP, Damascus, a good quality handle, all in budget.
Great to see you are reading the chart at knife steel nerds, I am going to give you some considerations with those numbers you are looking at in mind
Reasoning behind this: ZDP destroys SG2 in edge retention (it is 30% better in that regard). Destroys magnacut (at an average magnacut hardness, it will be better by 25%). A lot better than Hap40 (About 15%). Sukenari does great finishing, a great middle weight grind for the average user, not too thin or thick. Great heat treat (it means they make it hard which translates to the edge retention they want).
Now, reasons you wouldn't want this.
1. ZDP-189 is at the teeter totter of stainless. It will be just fine in the kitchen if you don't leave it wet for long periods of time. I have left mine alone for 30 mins-an hour after using it, and never have had a problem with rust in years. If you and your wife can manage that, it's a non issue.
2. It is not tough at all. To me, also a non issue as I know not to go near bones, I use a good cutting board, and only cut up and down. It does not need to be babied, but it does need to be used with that in mind. My parents who are not knife inclined at all use mine with no issue, and have never chipped it, but I have told them never go near anything hard, only use on the cutting board, no bones, etc etc.
Now, alternatives already mentioned (excuse me if I missed some epiphanies I only browsed this thread lightly). Like the Myojin SG2. It will definitely cut with less resistance and feel a bit "sharper". Not a ton, but it will be better in that regard. The sukenari will still be a night and day difference compared to anything your wife has tried and will wow her. It will be a little tougher but not much. It will be more stainless. Sukenari also does a HAP40, but these days are a bit harder to find in dama. HAP40 is yet a bit better still in toughness and edge retention compared to SG2 but it is similar in stainlessness to ZDP. A bit less so actually. Now a magnacut knife....arguably the most balanced stainless. If you wanted the best of all worlds, magnacut is designed for that. Super, super stainless. Very tough. Average to slightly above average edge retention (In comparison to other Stainless powder metallurgy steels. But I don't think it's something that should be considered if you want an edge retention beast.
Now, one last big important note I did want to say. When I quoted the percentages for edge retentions above by percentage, this is in accordance to CATRA testing which is essentially silica impregnated cardboard. It is great, because we can draw a baseline comparison of all things equal steel to steel and I can tell you ZDP has 30% more edge retention than SG2 in testing. But just remember that it's scientific testing using one parameter to test how long the edges last. Your mileage may very well be different in cutting food on a cardboard, and not silica impregnated cardboard. So yes, I can tell you ZDP will definitely go a lot further compared to SG2 in regards to retention, but I can't exactly say it will be 30% better. Could be a bit more than that number, or a bit lower than that number.
In conclusion:
Edge retention: ZDP>>>HAP40>Magnacut>SG2
Toughness: (ability to resist chipping) Magnacut>>>HAP40>SG2>ZDP
Stainlessness: Magnacut>>>SG2>ZDP>=Hap40.
Please let me know if you have any other questions, as I am lover of all things edge retention and high end steels haha.
EDIT: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO VG10. Average to below average edge retention. Not tough at all. Is stainless. You get nothing. SG2 ALWAYS beats it out in everything but being a bit easier to sharpen.
https://www.knivesandstones.com.au/...nari-zdp-189-damascus-k-tip-gyuto-210mm-240mm
Grab this guy from James at knives and stones. He is in australia but ships to the USA, and shipping is reasonable at $14. You will get ZDP, Damascus, a good quality handle, all in budget.
Great to see you are reading the chart at knife steel nerds, I am going to give you some considerations with those numbers you are looking at in mind
Reasoning behind this: ZDP destroys SG2 in edge retention (it is 30% better in that regard). Destroys magnacut (at an average magnacut hardness, it will be better by 25%). A lot better than Hap40 (About 15%). Sukenari does great finishing, a great middle weight grind for the average user, not too thin or thick. Great heat treat (it means they make it hard which translates to the edge retention they want).
Now, reasons you wouldn't want this.
1. ZDP-189 is at the teeter totter of stainless. It will be just fine in the kitchen if you don't leave it wet for long periods of time. I have left mine alone for 30 mins-an hour after using it, and never have had a problem with rust in years. If you and your wife can manage that, it's a non issue.
2. It is not tough at all. To me, also a non issue as I know not to go near bones, I use a good cutting board, and only cut up and down. It does not need to be babied, but it does need to be used with that in mind. My parents who are not knife inclined at all use mine with no issue, and have never chipped it, but I have told them never go near anything hard, only use on the cutting board, no bones, etc etc.
Now, alternatives already mentioned (excuse me if I missed some epiphanies I only browsed this thread lightly). Like the Myojin SG2. It will definitely cut with less resistance and feel a bit "sharper". Not a ton, but it will be better in that regard. The sukenari will still be a night and day difference compared to anything your wife has tried and will wow her. It will be a little tougher but not much. It will be more stainless. Sukenari also does a HAP40, but these days are a bit harder to find in dama. HAP40 is yet a bit better still in toughness and edge retention compared to SG2 but it is similar in stainlessness to ZDP. A bit less so actually. Now a magnacut knife....arguably the most balanced stainless. If you wanted the best of all worlds, magnacut is designed for that. Super, super stainless. Very tough. Average to slightly above average edge retention (In comparison to other Stainless powder metallurgy steels. But I don't think it's something that should be considered if you want an edge retention beast.
Now, one last big important note I did want to say. When I quoted the percentages for edge retentions above by percentage, this is in accordance to CATRA testing which is essentially silica impregnated cardboard. It is great, because we can draw a baseline comparison of all things equal steel to steel and I can tell you ZDP has 30% more edge retention than SG2 in testing. But just remember that it's scientific testing using one parameter to test how long the edges last. Your mileage may very well be different in cutting food on a cardboard, and not silica impregnated cardboard. So yes, I can tell you ZDP will definitely go a lot further compared to SG2 in regards to retention, but I can't exactly say it will be 30% better. Could be a bit more than that number, or a bit lower than that number.
In conclusion:
Edge retention: ZDP>>>HAP40>Magnacut>SG2
Toughness: (ability to resist chipping) Magnacut>>>HAP40>SG2>ZDP
Stainlessness: Magnacut>>>SG2>ZDP>=Hap40.
Please let me know if you have any other questions, as I am lover of all things edge retention and high end steels haha.
EDIT: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO VG10. Average to below average edge retention. Not tough at all. Is stainless. You get nothing. SG2 ALWAYS beats it out in everything but being a bit easier to sharpen.
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I am also gonna do a bit of work for you and eliminate some options based on what I think you are looking for, with reasons for each:
Myojin Riki SG2/R2 HRC62 - YES, good all rounder, very good cutter,
Sukenari SG2/R2 HRC63 - YES, good all rounder, slightly more robust than the Myojin, but can be had with damascus if you want it pretty.
Blazen Ryu SG2 HRC? - Never experienced, and don't know a ton about. Heard good things...but not sure if there are reasons to buy. Sukenari is prettier, Myojin will surely cut better.
Kagekiyo Ginsan Silver3 HRC- NO. Kagekiyo has GORGEOUS fit and finish and will cut incredibly well. Silver 3...below average edge retention. Decently tough, and fantastic to sharpen for a stainless but it does not sound what you are looking for
Yoshida [sounds so cool but cannot find in stock]- No experience with, but they do have ZDP and HAP40 which are great
Gihei Zuika ZDP-189 HRC66 - YES. I have heard great things in regard to heat treat, and grind. One of the standard bearers for ZDP in japan
Yoshikane SKD HRC? - NO, low edge retention steel, not stainless
Messermeister Kawashima SG2 HRC65- Probably avoid. 65 HRC sounds super hard for SG2 which will give you a bit more edge retention, but also more brittle. If you want more edge retention....just get HAP40 or ZDP. If you want SG2, get one of the other YES options that cut better.
Hattori Forums FH VG10 HRC60 -NO, VG10 is average/slightly below average edge retention, and not tough.
Yu Kurosaki Senko 1 2 3 SG2/R2 HRC62 -unique blade, unique handle
Hitohira VG10 HRC? -NO, VG10 is average/slightly below average edge retention, and not tough.
Ryusen Bonten Unryu VG10 HRC60 -NO, VG10 is average/slightly below average edge retention, and not tough.
Ryusen Fukakuryu ATS314 HRC? -Older, average stainless steel. Fine. Just fine.
Migaki Sukenari SG2 HRC64 Sure. But there are damascus versions if you want to spice it up.
Sam Reed AEB-L HRC? -Don't know about this maker. AEB-L will be super tough, stainless, but low edge retention.
San Mai Ohishi VG10 HRC60 -NO, VG10 is average/slightly below average edge retention, and not tough.
Ryusen Hamono Bonten VG10 HRC60 -NO, VG10 is average/slightly below average edge retention, and not tough.
Yu Kurosaki SG2 HRC63 -Recommended a few to friends and they have really enjoyed them. I am guessing will be a little bit thinner than the sukenari, closer to the myojin. Another good option if you want SG2. People like them.
Takeshi Saji Tsuchime R2 HRC61 -Probably no, unless you LOVE the handle and think your wife will. Otherwise, the other makers do SG2 harder, and they make them thinner.
In Addition you should add:
Sukenari ZDP: Very high edge retention. Great middle of the road grind. I really like the handles James does at knives and stones. Can get a k-tip or damascus version (all aesthetics). Meh stainlessness. Below average toughness.
Sukenari HAP40: Medium high edge retention, Great middle of the road grind. I really like the handles James does at knives and stones. Can get a k-tip or damascus version (all aesthetics). Meh stainlessness. Average toughness.
Myojin Riki SG2/R2 HRC62 - YES, good all rounder, very good cutter,
Sukenari SG2/R2 HRC63 - YES, good all rounder, slightly more robust than the Myojin, but can be had with damascus if you want it pretty.
Blazen Ryu SG2 HRC? - Never experienced, and don't know a ton about. Heard good things...but not sure if there are reasons to buy. Sukenari is prettier, Myojin will surely cut better.
Kagekiyo Ginsan Silver3 HRC- NO. Kagekiyo has GORGEOUS fit and finish and will cut incredibly well. Silver 3...below average edge retention. Decently tough, and fantastic to sharpen for a stainless but it does not sound what you are looking for
Yoshida [sounds so cool but cannot find in stock]- No experience with, but they do have ZDP and HAP40 which are great
Gihei Zuika ZDP-189 HRC66 - YES. I have heard great things in regard to heat treat, and grind. One of the standard bearers for ZDP in japan
Yoshikane SKD HRC? - NO, low edge retention steel, not stainless
Messermeister Kawashima SG2 HRC65- Probably avoid. 65 HRC sounds super hard for SG2 which will give you a bit more edge retention, but also more brittle. If you want more edge retention....just get HAP40 or ZDP. If you want SG2, get one of the other YES options that cut better.
Hattori Forums FH VG10 HRC60 -NO, VG10 is average/slightly below average edge retention, and not tough.
Yu Kurosaki Senko 1 2 3 SG2/R2 HRC62 -unique blade, unique handle
Hitohira VG10 HRC? -NO, VG10 is average/slightly below average edge retention, and not tough.
Ryusen Bonten Unryu VG10 HRC60 -NO, VG10 is average/slightly below average edge retention, and not tough.
Ryusen Fukakuryu ATS314 HRC? -Older, average stainless steel. Fine. Just fine.
Migaki Sukenari SG2 HRC64 Sure. But there are damascus versions if you want to spice it up.
Sam Reed AEB-L HRC? -Don't know about this maker. AEB-L will be super tough, stainless, but low edge retention.
San Mai Ohishi VG10 HRC60 -NO, VG10 is average/slightly below average edge retention, and not tough.
Ryusen Hamono Bonten VG10 HRC60 -NO, VG10 is average/slightly below average edge retention, and not tough.
Yu Kurosaki SG2 HRC63 -Recommended a few to friends and they have really enjoyed them. I am guessing will be a little bit thinner than the sukenari, closer to the myojin. Another good option if you want SG2. People like them.
Takeshi Saji Tsuchime R2 HRC61 -Probably no, unless you LOVE the handle and think your wife will. Otherwise, the other makers do SG2 harder, and they make them thinner.
In Addition you should add:
Sukenari ZDP: Very high edge retention. Great middle of the road grind. I really like the handles James does at knives and stones. Can get a k-tip or damascus version (all aesthetics). Meh stainlessness. Below average toughness.
Sukenari HAP40: Medium high edge retention, Great middle of the road grind. I really like the handles James does at knives and stones. Can get a k-tip or damascus version (all aesthetics). Meh stainlessness. Average toughness.
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Cleaning this up a little bit. I think these should be the only to consider based on the above points:
Myojin Riki SG2/R2
Sukenari SG2/R2 HRC63
Sukenari ZDP-189
Sukenari HAP40
Gihei Zuika ZDP-189 HRC66
Yu Kurosaki SG2 HRC63
Yoshida...wild card don't know much about again, but they do offer some sweet steels like ZDP and HAP, found a link to some of their stuff from this shop: (Yoshida Hamono)
There are other GREAT options out there by custom makers, and maybe some other low volume productions I can't think of at the top of my head....but I think the above list is super solid and will do no wrong for your requirements. Just choose what's right for you guys reading the plusses and minuses of each. Please let me know if I can help with any other questions.
EDIT: I saw the shun talk. If you really want to go with a factory made knife, I would go with a Miyabi Birchwood SG2. Just don't pay near MSRP. It's not super thin, but has a gorgeous handle, great damascus, and an ok heat treat. But every single thing on the above list will cut significantly better, and are hand made with more love and care.
Myojin Riki SG2/R2
Sukenari SG2/R2 HRC63
Sukenari ZDP-189
Sukenari HAP40
Gihei Zuika ZDP-189 HRC66
Yu Kurosaki SG2 HRC63
Yoshida...wild card don't know much about again, but they do offer some sweet steels like ZDP and HAP, found a link to some of their stuff from this shop: (Yoshida Hamono)
There are other GREAT options out there by custom makers, and maybe some other low volume productions I can't think of at the top of my head....but I think the above list is super solid and will do no wrong for your requirements. Just choose what's right for you guys reading the plusses and minuses of each. Please let me know if I can help with any other questions.
EDIT: I saw the shun talk. If you really want to go with a factory made knife, I would go with a Miyabi Birchwood SG2. Just don't pay near MSRP. It's not super thin, but has a gorgeous handle, great damascus, and an ok heat treat. But every single thing on the above list will cut significantly better, and are hand made with more love and care.
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Just pick something that has a sharpening service included with purchase.
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@PaulE
And if I didn't give you enough info.....one last note about retailers, and choices because if you go sukenari, myojin, kurosaki, gihei...there are multiple shops. I will tell you a reason to go with one over the other.
Knives and stones- James at Knives and Stones is an all around great guy and KKF veteran. Great customer service, some of the best stock handles in the game. DOES PRICE MATCH.
Sugi Cutlery- Run by our own @JoBone my favorite custom handle maker and also KKF member, with great CS. You can buy a blade from Joe, and pair it with a handle from his website that you think would be a nice pick from your wife. Just add a blade from his website, and choose a handle and add the installation service on, or put a note in the order. That way you can make it really custom to her.
Example: Pair this: Sukenari ZDP189 Gyuto - Blade Only
With this: Custom Japanese Knife handle (wa handle) - Olive and Tasmanian Blackwood
Strata- Not sure how many Strata has of the above choices (pretty sure I know they carry gihei and kurosaki). But Evan is just an all around amazing dude as well. Great customer service.
There are so many other fantastic shops at well, but just wanted to name a few of my favorites. It's actually unfair because I want to give so many shops my money. Have had so many stellar buying experiences.
And if I didn't give you enough info.....one last note about retailers, and choices because if you go sukenari, myojin, kurosaki, gihei...there are multiple shops. I will tell you a reason to go with one over the other.
Knives and stones- James at Knives and Stones is an all around great guy and KKF veteran. Great customer service, some of the best stock handles in the game. DOES PRICE MATCH.
Sugi Cutlery- Run by our own @JoBone my favorite custom handle maker and also KKF member, with great CS. You can buy a blade from Joe, and pair it with a handle from his website that you think would be a nice pick from your wife. Just add a blade from his website, and choose a handle and add the installation service on, or put a note in the order. That way you can make it really custom to her.
Example: Pair this: Sukenari ZDP189 Gyuto - Blade Only
With this: Custom Japanese Knife handle (wa handle) - Olive and Tasmanian Blackwood
Strata- Not sure how many Strata has of the above choices (pretty sure I know they carry gihei and kurosaki). But Evan is just an all around amazing dude as well. Great customer service.
There are so many other fantastic shops at well, but just wanted to name a few of my favorites. It's actually unfair because I want to give so many shops my money. Have had so many stellar buying experiences.
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If you are in LA...take your knife to Jon at JKI for sharpening. Also a GOAT. If you get any of the higher end stainless stuff, I could see sharpening only needing to happen 1-3 times a year.
tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
Few things to add
Stainless steel vs non-stainless steel:
For someone that doesn't plan to sharpen or maintain regularly, I highly recommend going with a full stainless steel. The reason is not about rusting. If you take general care of your knives, they will not rust. But the main thing is that the non-stainless steels are going to lose their edge faster when you use them on very acidic stuff, for example tomatoes, onions, citrus etc. For someone that sharpens themselves, it's a very simple touch up so it wouldnt be a concern. However if the sharpening plan only involves maintenance maybe once or twice a year, any benefit you gain from additional sharpness of a nonstainless will be lost after making a tomato stew. On the other hand, the full stainless knives will not have that problem.
Geometry:
It seems that a lot of this thread has been focused on specific steels when comparing different knives. The actual steel differences are very minimal. Some generalizations tend to hold true such as SG2 outlasting ginsan by a fair margin. But something you will also want to think about is how different makers grind their edges. You can look at Sukenari, Myojin, and Shun, all in SG2. They have the same steel, and you can assume decent heat treat, but they are all very different from one another. Sukenari typically has a medium thickness grind, decent behind the edge. Myojin has a very aggressive edge and convex grind up the blade. And Shun in my opinion is just ground for people who dont know much about good knife geometry. The reason geometry matters is that once your edge gets dull, this is what determines how your knife performs. You can think of your blade going thru an ingredient similar to an object through water. If you have a wooden spear, vs a wooden 2x4, one is going to go through much more easily.
My recommended strategy:
So I recommend to decide on a general type of steel (eg, stainless, nonstainless, semistainless), then decide what kind of geometry you are looking for. Do you want super thin and delicate, do you want a thick workhorse that you can beat on, or do you want something in the middle that maybe has a thin edge with sturdy spine for extra stability? This will help narrow down the huge field of choices that you currently have. After that, you can think about what kind of special quality of life features you want? Nice finish, smoothed edges, upgraded handle, fancy cladding, etc.
Stainless steel vs non-stainless steel:
For someone that doesn't plan to sharpen or maintain regularly, I highly recommend going with a full stainless steel. The reason is not about rusting. If you take general care of your knives, they will not rust. But the main thing is that the non-stainless steels are going to lose their edge faster when you use them on very acidic stuff, for example tomatoes, onions, citrus etc. For someone that sharpens themselves, it's a very simple touch up so it wouldnt be a concern. However if the sharpening plan only involves maintenance maybe once or twice a year, any benefit you gain from additional sharpness of a nonstainless will be lost after making a tomato stew. On the other hand, the full stainless knives will not have that problem.
Geometry:
It seems that a lot of this thread has been focused on specific steels when comparing different knives. The actual steel differences are very minimal. Some generalizations tend to hold true such as SG2 outlasting ginsan by a fair margin. But something you will also want to think about is how different makers grind their edges. You can look at Sukenari, Myojin, and Shun, all in SG2. They have the same steel, and you can assume decent heat treat, but they are all very different from one another. Sukenari typically has a medium thickness grind, decent behind the edge. Myojin has a very aggressive edge and convex grind up the blade. And Shun in my opinion is just ground for people who dont know much about good knife geometry. The reason geometry matters is that once your edge gets dull, this is what determines how your knife performs. You can think of your blade going thru an ingredient similar to an object through water. If you have a wooden spear, vs a wooden 2x4, one is going to go through much more easily.
My recommended strategy:
So I recommend to decide on a general type of steel (eg, stainless, nonstainless, semistainless), then decide what kind of geometry you are looking for. Do you want super thin and delicate, do you want a thick workhorse that you can beat on, or do you want something in the middle that maybe has a thin edge with sturdy spine for extra stability? This will help narrow down the huge field of choices that you currently have. After that, you can think about what kind of special quality of life features you want? Nice finish, smoothed edges, upgraded handle, fancy cladding, etc.
I just want to mention that none of these steels will rust unless abused. You had some reservations about how stainless some of these are and in my opinion that is the least of concerns. Some will discolor, but that is only the very edge if they are clad in fully stainless steel (all here will be). Discoloration is not rust, it just gets dark. Personally I find the contrast between a darker edge and stainless cladding a good thing. HAP40 will discolor, ZDP may discolor a bit, and the others probably won’t. All can sit in a puddle of lemon juice for a half hour. None can sit in a sink underwater for xmas break. None should go in a dishwasher.
Jedy617 summarized the qualities of the various steels well.
Jedy617 summarized the qualities of the various steels well.
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Sorry, I think this is probably the ONLY time I disagree with an opinion I have ever seen you post on this forum which is quite rare haha. Remember his request was edge retention first, and then flashy.
I would say 100% yes go for geometry and type of steel first for most people coming to the KKF forum for recommendations. But man you have to remember this is going to be a gift for his wife and not a budding KKF enthusiast. I don't think she would see a huge difference in the grind of a sukenari, myojin, or kurosaki for example. He specifically said that higher edge retention is a must, and the differences between the choices are really really large, I don't get how you can look at the numbers and say they are not. Between HAP and ZDP...not so much. SG2/Ginsan, VG-10...most definitely.
It's just more of a matter of "why" you know? I can answer why get the ZDP. Edge retention an average user will notice(I recommend PM steel knives to quite a few non knife people and I hear their feedback). As a KKF member the sukenaris have a grind that I personally enjoy...so it most certainly will be good for the wife. The Myojin is really doing nothing to help them (when pitted against a knife with a different stainless steel). The grind WILL NOT MATTER if we are already at a baseline of a sukenari which is great. She won't be doing hours of prep work, or doing A to B testing against other J knives. They will notice how often they need to sharpen it....and he said his wife will appreciate something flashy like a nice damacus and handle.
To a budding enthusiast, or prep cook who will be chopping tons in a kitchen, I would recommend the myojin 10/10 times. I just don't see it better than a Sukenari (or Gihei, or Yoshida) that can offer them more tangible benefits. It's like sharpening. We kind of have to accept the fact that just not everyone wants to do it. I would love to say, get a ginsan kagekiyo and some stones and go wild...but that is what would be good for US, not THEM.
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Yeah I would feel comfortable leaving my ZDP/S90V wet for quite some time. No reason for me to do so, but it is not a concern whatsoever as long as you clean it when you are done cooking/eating.
tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
I don't disagree with what you said at all. But I meant to point out that there is a difference between a Shun or Messermeister SG2, and a relatively high end Japanese blade of the same steel. Maybe would be better to have two subcategories of stainless. In one tier you can put VG10, ginsan, maybe AEBL. In the next tier for edge retention maybe have the SG2, ZDP, HAP40 (I personally havent used ZDP or HAP40, so I'm not sure how they perform). My intent was not to say one Japanese maker is superior to another, but instead that a maker would make a bigger difference than steel. I imagine that after a year of use without sharpening, the "edge retention" thing wont matter anymore and you are then left with pure geometry til the blade is resharpened.
PaulE
Member
Thank you, jedy617, for your detailed review.
I felt I was getting in way over my head and was going to go the Messermeister way. Now, with a more manageable list (above), and thank you for the comments on the knives, I think I can pick one and go with annual mail-in sharpening. Of course, I won't stop here, so I'll keep this list and assume I can use it when buying a Santoku next.
Ok, I won't think about rusting (Justinv), but will stick with stainless because of superior edge retention (tostadas).
Stainless only (we use lots of acidic foods, don't want that to reduce edge retention, looks like that would remove Hap40?)
Geometry: Not sure how to interpret that if I'm looking for edge staying usable for longer without maintenance. Seems like Myojin's convex grind would get dull faster if I'm picturing it right. As far as uses, the knife won't take a beating and I'm going for that "wow" feeling so I'd lean more toward the "thin and delicate" than the "workhorse."
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For sure. I agree, for an average consumer, edge retention between SG2, magnacut, VG10, ATS, Ginsan, and a few others will feel quite similar. ZDP and HAP are just beasts. They have tons of carbide and it feels like the edge will last forever, even if they can't get as keen as others. At least in the culinary world of stainless steels, I do put HAP and ZDP in separate categories because of that retention.
Now the gap from SG2 to HAP, and then HAP to ZDP...I do think a lot of average users will not notice a big difference. That's why I kinda set the limit. If you want that hard edge retention, might as well ZDP route and knock out HAP. I would only take HAP in a case where you are willing to trade some retention for toughness. But then...it's not that tough in the first place, go magnacut and get a better balance.
As an aside. I do have a very close friend who loves his sukenari hap I recommended. He is used to SG2 knives, but not a chef knife enthusiast per say. Him and his wife definitely notice a difference in the edge retention of his HAP. I only sharpen for them twice a year and they use it quite a bit.
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I wouldn't be too concerned about how the grind will affect the edge over time. If you take your knife to someone like Jon at JKI, or another reputable sharpener, after years of use you can get it thinned (where they remove material behind the edge).
@tostadas could have been right, and I missed the importance of that "WOW" factor of cutting for you guys. If you want that, mixed with decent edge retention....SG2 really is one of my favorite stainless steels in the kitchen for all around use, and the myojin is top notch in every regard. If you want an absolute monster in edge retention that will still cut well (but just a little bit less of that wow factor, again will still be a MASSIVE difference compared to what you are used to)ZDP Sukenari, get the damascus for some bling if you wanted.
The good thing is there are no losers. You get the Myojin, will cut better than anything you have ever seen, hold a great edge, and be stainless. when I talk about how much of a beast ZDP is, we are still in a realm of high end steels. SG2 really is no slouch in the edge department.
You get the Sukenari, will still cut better than anything you have ever seen (without trying the moyjin
) and will last a bit longer in the sharpening sessions.tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
I think you interpreted the comment backwards. I meant to say that once a blade dulls, the one with better geometry will continue to cut better. In your case, you probably want something thin behind the edge.
So to add to your list, I'd put Shibata R2 (same as sg2) on there. They are absolute lasers and will fall through anything you throw at it. Also their fit and finish is high. Polished spine and choils, and their handles even have extra chamfering at the front and back. The kotetsu line is their main one, but it has a really pointy tip which you may or may not like. They also have a kashima line which is more like a normal gyuto shape. It's hard to find them in stock since they tend to sell out quickly. But you can look them up and contact the maker directly to order if they have any available. The 135mm is my friend's wife's main knife for everything.
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Ah damnit don't give him another option we are almost there
In seriousness though, I have a shibata santoku (in tamahagane) and it does cut amazingly, and I have friends who are pro chefs that love their kotetsus (even though they aren't really knife enthusiast.)
Definitely a great option. But I will say the myojin or sukenari are prettier. Again that is a secondary consideration but just saying. I would agree that it would be the best pure cutter of the 3. Probably the end choices should be, shibata for best cutting performance, sukenari ZDP for edge retention and aesthetics....and myojin for kind of a hybrid of the looks (has a beautiful frosted finish) and the cutting performance.
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The true KKF response from me would be to get a shibata petty, sukenari santoku, and then myojin gyuto
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The reason why I'm so invested in this thread is that it's really fun for me because after my miyabi sg2 birchwood, and then getting a hinoura santoku, I decided I wanted my first real badass Japanese knife, and I did so much research, and edge retention really was my top priority at the time, so what you are really getting in my responses, are the conclusions I came to then, with some added wisdom that I have now years later. Now I almost have all carbon steel knives that have a fraction of the edge retention of ZDP, what does that tell you
Anyways, I did end up with this Sukenari ZDP damascus from Knives and Stones. It holds a special place in my heart. I really don't use it all that often anymore, but it is still a standout in my collection of knives I can whip out anytime, know it will be perfect for every job, and that I will never have to wonder if it's sharp enough to do the job at hand, and look great doing it
Anyways, I did end up with this Sukenari ZDP damascus from Knives and Stones. It holds a special place in my heart. I really don't use it all that often anymore, but it is still a standout in my collection of knives I can whip out anytime, know it will be perfect for every job, and that I will never have to wonder if it's sharp enough to do the job at hand, and look great doing it
PaulE
Member
Thank you for finally just telling me the answer!The true KKF response from me would be to get a shibata petty, sukenari santoku, and then myojin gyuto
I just wonder why you wouldn't say get the Sukenari ZDP-189 in a gyuto since edge retention is more important for the knife that gets the most use. Then maybe Myojin santoku and I'm guessing Shibata petty because that has been recommended before for reasons I might not want to delve into at this hour.
So looks like I could put the final list at
Shibata SG2/R2 (petty)
Sukenari ZDP (santoku)
Myojin SG2/R2 (gyuto)
Oh man, if I get three, I'm signing up for ~$100/year sharpening. Let me ask you this, would a Sukenari ZDP or Myojin SG2 cut better after 3 months than a freshly sharpened Messermeister Kawashima SG2? Thinking I could sharpen the Messermeister for free 4/year in the mail vs probably end up sharpening the others once/year. I realize I'm probably in the wrong place to get feedback on the Messermeister.
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Between shapes- I only said sukenari ZDP santoku because I know you can get a santoku. The Myojin Sg2 line doesn't have a santoku...don't think there is a petty either. Also, I hate to say it but santoku are pretty wife friendly haha. So with Sukenari having to be the santoku, and myojin not having a petty, that decided the remaining 2. It is really fun to have a very thin petty. I have a petty sharpened by myojin and I love it for small light duty tasks like fruits, mincing garlic, shallots, etc.
I know NOTHING about messermeister, I won't bad mouth them and guarantee it will be bad, but if it's a factory made knife, I am GUESSING it will not cut well compared to these. The Sukenari will still cut better then the freshly sharpened knife, I can almost guarantee because I know after 3 months you will still have a perfectly good edge using ZDP in a home kitchen. For the myojin...depends how often you use it. I would still probably say the myojin, because a lot of how a knife cuts after the initial bite is that geometry and grind.
Last thing before I go to bed, a little food for thought. If you have those 3 knives, or even 2...that means you are spreading out the usage time and wear, so it does not necessarily mean you will spend more in sharpening. I mean yes eventually they will each need it, but if you use the ZDP for 50% of the time...that means those SG2 knives might go double the time between sharpenings you know? Just a thought
