Which Knife Should I Buy?

[PaulE]

Hi and thank you in advance for steering me in the right direction to buy a nice 8" chef's knife as a gift for the wife.

LOCATION:
S. California, USA

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
CHEF'S 210mm
Are you right or left handed?
RIGHT
Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
JAPANESE HANDLE
What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
210mm
Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
YES (I think so, looking for least maintenance)
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$500 USD


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
HOME
What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
ALL EXCEPT BREAKING BONES
What knife, if any, are you replacing?
CALPHALON
Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
PINCH GRIP
What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
ROCKING - SLICING - WALKING
What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
#1 - LEAST AMOUNT OF MAINTENANCE POSSIBLE AS WE WILL NOT SHARPEN THE KNIFE AND WOULD LIKE TO MINIMIZE NEEDING SHARPENING SERVICES (I've learned I should not use a steel rod for this kind of knife, and I know I won't ever get around to learning proper sharpening after reading this forum)
#2 - STAY SHARP ENOUGH AS LONG AS POSSIBLE (same as #1 but wanted to make sure)
#3 - COOL LOOKING KNIFE
Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
LAYERED OR PLAIN (NOT THE STAMPED LOOK), SCRATCH RESISTANCE, STAIN RESISTANCE, A HANDLE THAT DOESN'T LOOK TOO PLAIN IF POSSIBLE
Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
LIGHTER KNIFE WITH GOOD BALANCE, NICE LOOKING HANDLE
Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
SHARP KNIFE OUT OF THE BOX THAT STAYS SHARP AS LONG AS POSSIBLE
Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
THIS IS MY #1 REQUEST. CAN I GET AWAY WITH NOT SHARPENING IT FOR MORE THAN A YEAR? I know it depends on a lot of factors, but we've gotten by only using the steel rod for the Calphalon set so I'm hoping an upgrade means superior edge retention.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
YES (mostly wood, some synthetic)
Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
NO
If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
NO
Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
NO (unless a fool can use them)


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
This chef's knife will be a gift for my wife who loves to cook and has had to put up with a dull Calphalon knife set for a decade. She'll use it daily. I was drawn to the Japanese style because of the harder metal (thinking less sharpening) and lower angle (thinking bigger improvement in feel), but open to getting anything special. Since it's a gift, I'd like to get something that'll stay sharp "forever" and also look "custom."
I thought I'd come up with a pick after browsing the forums for a while, but I've jumped from one knife to another as I kept reading and now feel I'm totally in over my head.
Thank you.

 

[tostadas]

My 2 favorites here for this size and in full stainless are the Myojin Riki SG2 and Nakagawa Ginsan. Both of these have excellent grinds and fit & finish out of the box. Many of the bang-for-buck gyutos that I typically recommend do need some work such as easing spine/choils, or sometimes have rough grinds. I previously would have also recommended the S.Tanaka Ginsan, but the newer ones I see look to be less refined than before.

The Myojin has a thinner grind, more effortless cutting performance, and the SG2 steel is one of the longer lasting ones for edge retention out of the typical types used in Japanese knives. The Nakagawa ginsan is more robust in its grind, so you can beat it up harder and not worry about it. However, the ginsan steel edge retention I found to be more similar to simple carbon knives. So it doesn't hold its edge quite as long, but it's easier to sharpen.

Handles vary between vendors. And they are highly personal preference. You might want to shop around if you are looking for a certain type of handle in particular. The blades and handles are usually made separately, so you can find the same knife with different handles from different vendors.

Disclaimer: I currently have a Myojin for sale, so I tried to be as objective as possible.

 

[Infrared]

https://realsharpknife.com/collections/customs/products/kobayashi-sg2-170mm-bunka-custom-1
A ceramic honing rod should keep it sharp for quite a while, but it will need to be sharpened sooner or later.

 

[Cliff]

I think it's a lovely idea. Any knife will eventually need to be sharpened. The good news is that you are in LA, and there are great local options, starting with Japanese Knife Imports.

I would look for something stainless, here keeping in mind that the harder the steel, the more fragile it will be. I think these would fit the bill:

https://mtckitchen.com/sukenari-sg2-gyuto-210mm-8-2-rosewood-handle/https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/blazen-ryu-210mm-wa-gyutohttps://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...oducts/gesshin-ginga-210mm-stainless-wa-gyutohttps://carbonknifeco.com/collectio...cts/kagekiyo-ginsan-gyuto-210mm-walnut-handle

 

[Cliff]

Just seeing earlier messages -- Myojin is one of the very best sharpeners out there, and sharpeners are hugely important for the performance of any knife. It goes beyond how sharp the edge is. They are very, very high performance knives. You would want to keep something like the Calphalon for rough work -- if there is hard squash, nuts, chocolate, or anything similar to cut -- but using something like that will be an eye opening experience.

 

[PaulE]

Wow, thank you all for the replies, I thought I'd be lucky to get one response. I'll be looking through these but know it'll be hard to decide. The custom handles on realsharpknife.com look awesome and the history behind Myojin sounds really good.

One thing occurred to me, what reason do I give my wife when she asks why I didn't get a Shun or Miyabi? I'd say because this is way cooler but is there a generally agreed upon difference between these (above) and the Shun/Miyabi?

And I don't suppose the type of steel or whether its clad would indicate better sharpness longevity? Going to get a knife sharpened for me would be a 2h roundtrip (twice) commitment, so not doable multiple times per year.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

As said above, since you're in L.A., I would absolutely make the trip to Japanese Knife Imports and tell them what you're after. You'll get a good fitting knife and have an excellent local location for sharpening services done right!

The founder/owner, Jon Broida, is a member here and also has numerous YT videos that have helped many of us over the years. Good people to support and do business with.

EDIT: Just saw the round trip comment. Buy two $250 knives and mail them one at a time.

 

[Infrared]

One thing occurred to me, what reason do I give my wife when she asks why I didn't get a Shun or Miyabi? I'd say because this is way cooler but is there a generally agreed upon difference between these (above) and the Shun/Miyabi?

They're handmade, better quality, and better performance.

And I don't suppose the type of steel or whether its clad would indicate better sharpness longevity?

SG2 would be your best bet for staying sharp the longest.

Going to get a knife sharpened for me would be a 2h roundtrip (twice) commitment, so not doable multiple times per year.

Most knife shops have a mail in sharpening service.

 

[tostadas]

One thing occurred to me, what reason do I give my wife when she asks why I didn't get a Shun or Miyabi? I'd say because this is way cooler but is there a generally agreed upon difference between these (above) and the Shun/Miyabi?

There's nothing inherently wrong with a Shun/Miyabi. But a big part of what you pay for is the marketing. For the same amount of money, you can get much more with something else. There are some threads you can check out which addresses similar questions if you search around.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/why-all-the-shun-hate.47941/

 

[Benuser]

Rocking and walking AND not sending out more than once a year sounds problematic to me. Maintenance with a rod needs quite a learning curve, especially to get rid of the burr. Even on stones deburring of SG2 isn't exactly easy, and the quality of the deburring will largely determine the longevity of an edge.

 

[Cliff]

For the longest edge life, I think Hap40 is your best bet. But I would caution not to use that as the most important criteria. R2 is more widely available and holds an edge for a good long time.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Well, I'll be the unpopular one and say you should consider VG-10. It will absolutely not hold its screaming sharp edge for long, but it will hold a "working" edge for a long time. None of the steels will hold that initial edge for the long term, it's all relative.

With daily use, you simply will not be able to go more than to or three months without noticing a drop off no matter what steel it is.

You're going to need a sharpening plan. There's just no way around it. So I'm not kidding when I say consider two knives, maybe a gyuto and a santoku or just two gyutos, of a lesser cost so that you can be without one while it's out being sharpened. Once you use a thin knife with a keen edge, it will be hard to go back.

 

[PaulE]

This is tough. If there's no way to avoid sharpening several times per year, I know how it will end up for us (practically speaking). I'll either 1) give it to a local store (Williams Sonoma or Sur la Table), 2) the guy at farmer's market that uses a belt grinder to sharpen while you wait, or 3) use the ChefsChoice Trizor myself. So now I'm thinking all those options will probably ruin the edge. I just want a forever edge with no maintenance, is that really too much to ask ... Maybe I'll do a version of your suggestion: 4 knives, 1 for each quarter of the year, sharpen all 4 once a year while using good ol' Calphalon. That way I could end up getting 4 of the above suggestions too!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

The mail-in services aren't bad. Looking into the aforementioned JKI and Bernal Cutlery. Call and ask about average turn times.

 

[tostadas]

This is tough. If there's no way to avoid sharpening several times per year, I know how it will end up for us (practically speaking). I'll either 1) give it to a local store (Williams Sonoma or Sur la Table), 2) the guy at farmer's market that uses a belt grinder to sharpen while you wait, or 3) use the ChefsChoice Trizor myself. So now I'm thinking all those options will probably ruin the edge. I just want a forever edge with no maintenance, is that really too much to ask ... Maybe I'll do a version of your suggestion: 4 knives, 1 for each quarter of the year, sharpen all 4 once a year while using good ol' Calphalon. That way I could end up getting 4 of the above suggestions too!

If you plan on bringing it to Williams Sonoma or the farmers market guy, set your budget much much lower because it won't be the same after the first sharpening.

 

[M1k3]

This is tough. If there's no way to avoid sharpening several times per year, I know how it will end up for us (practically speaking). I'll either 1) give it to a local store (Williams Sonoma or Sur la Table), 2) the guy at farmer's market that uses a belt grinder to sharpen while you wait, or 3) use the ChefsChoice Trizor myself. So now I'm thinking all those options will probably ruin the edge. I just want a forever edge with no maintenance, is that really too much to ask ... Maybe I'll do a version of your suggestion: 4 knives, 1 for each quarter of the year, sharpen all 4 once a year while using good ol' Calphalon. That way I could end up getting 4 of the above suggestions too!

Get a knife made out of Rex 121 from @Andrei

 

[Justinv]

As stated, you need a sharpening plan. Learn to sharpen yourself. If thats not in the cards, then get something cheap. If its dull its not worth $$$. If you use a commercial sharpening service on a pricy knife, they need to use whetstones. Belt sanders, pull through sharpeners, and electric sharpeners will ruin it.

I suggest getting an easy to sharpen affordable knife and some whetstones and learn to sharpen it. Once you get there, then invest in something good.

Per your inquiry about shun snd myabi, they are not traditional japanese knives. The blade profiles tend to be much more curved than a traditional japanese knife. The balance is handle heavy which does not cater to a typical pinch grip. Just about any knife with a piece of metal at the end of the handle will be poorly balanced for a pinch grip. Most around here prefer a balance point at the heel of the knife (balanced) or further forward so it is blade heavy. If you do not use a pinch grip then you may prefer a handle heavy design. Another issue with the mainstream makers is thick steel near the edge. Thick steel behind the edge makes them more durable but cut poorly.

If you want to fulfill your objectives as stated:
1. Find a sharpening service that uses whetstones.
2. Get a knife in high carbide steel such as Hap40.
3. I suggest a balsa strop for maintenance loaded with 1 micron diamond compound. This is better than a honing rod in my opinion. The balsa gives great feedback to let you know you are using the right angle to sharpen it. It will get a hard steel quite sharp, and you may be able to make a year between full sharpening with a steel like hap40.
4. Sukenari, Yoshida, Gihei make Hap40 knives. Some vendors put nice handles on them. Yoshida has really nice maple burl handles. There are many other hard steels that are reasonably tough but they are mostly in custom knives.

 

[mpier]

I’d recommend Yoshikane SKD, for me the edge seams to outlast my R2. Myojin knives are excellent, I can’t vouch for the R2 version but I’m sure they are top notch. Shun nor Miyabi are not going to have good edge retention, IMO your money is better spent with the suggestions given by the group here

 

[mengwong]

You're going to need a sharpening plan.

Are pull-throughs really verboten? They were designed for exactly this segment of the market, which is huge and needs no excuse.

They won’t match water stones or a computer-controlled Tormek, but they will rebuild and maintain an edge consistently so if the OP buys a knife that’s already thin BTE, then it’ll be good enough for anything a home user can put on a chopping board !

If I absolutely had to recommend a pull-through, I'd probably suggest Work Sharp's new model as it uses wheels instead of angled rods.

https://www.worksharptools.com/shop/kitchen/pull-through-knife-sharpener/

 

[M1k3]

Are pull-throughs really verboten? They were designed for exactly this segment of the market, which is huge and needs no excuse.

They won’t match water stones or a computer-controlled Tormek, but they will rebuild and maintain an edge consistently so if the OP buys a knife that’s already thin BTE, then it’ll be good enough for anything a home user can put on a chopping board !

Just....no.

First, the "edge" these pull-through sharpeners create is mangled.

Second, most people don't use it across the whole blade evenly.

Third, the blade will need thinning eventually. Or else it'll cut like crap.

Fourth, unless the blade is super cheap. Like throw away cheap. It's much better to learn to sharpen, even if it's a jig setup (which has some limitations also).

 

[Pisau]

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
NO

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
NO (unless a fool can use them)

Really popular among oz bargain hunters who are disinclined to buy stones let alone to learn. I gathered that the cheaper 2 stage was more popular than the 3 stage and unlike western pull throughs minosharp wheels are set at fifteen degrees. Then yearly thin at JKI, etc.

Ps. No, I've never had a pull through sharpener of any kind, but I understand that people have other priorities. It's okay to be not okay these days.

 

[Benuser]

Are pull-throughs really verboten? They were designed for exactly this segment of the market, which is huge and needs no excuse.

They won’t match water stones or a computer-controlled Tormek, but they will rebuild and maintain an edge consistently so if the OP buys a knife that’s already thin BTE, then it’ll be good enough for anything a home user can put on a chopping board !

Ever sharpened a knife that went through such a device? The damage it causes is huge, and the necessary repair implies a serious loss of width.

 

[mengwong]

Yeah, I looked at some knives that had been maintained on something like a Minosharp, and they weren’t too bad. Before I got water stones I used to use an electric Chef’s Choice, and that wasn’t too bad either. Speaking as a consumer, not a hobbyist.

I wouldn’t use the tungsten carbide V-sticks or the pair-o-discs, but there do seem to be some options upmarket from those, still in the pull-through category, but with more moving parts and better design, that abrade using stones and diamond plates, rather than carve with edged bits. If it works on a Global, as the video above shows, it can't be totally worthless … could it be the right answer for OP?

 

[mengwong]

Looking into this more… I can see the value prop in Shun – "lifetime sharpening on demand" is pretty compelling. As they like to teach in business school, customers want holes, not drills; they want cuts, not knives.

I see other knife brands do the same – lifetime sharpening for a small fee or priced in. Benchmade, Messermeister, and, yes, Cutco. I'd expect indie makers to do this too – because when you marry a Denka, you’re just starting a lifelong journey of growth, together!

Commercially, some restaurants subscribe to a periodic exchange service … why wouldn't that practice filter down to the consumer market? When my car goes into the shop I get a loaner. If I ran knife sharpening, I'd hand out loaners too.

Heck, if the inkjet people sold cutlery, knives would be free but you'd have to sign up for a sharpening plan, $3 a month per knife for life. Fail to pay, and click, the knife doesn’t come out of the block.

(Don't give the MBAs any ideas …)

Geoffrey Moore’s whole product theory suggests that knives and sharpeners go together as natural complements, to form a complete package. At the hobbyist / prosumer / pro level, the package is Japanese stones with Japanese knives. But at the consumer level, the limiting factor is that idiot-proof, low-effort sharpeners like a Minosharp would ruin a high-carbon, so the corresponding knives are constrained to cheap stainless and fat edges.

Innovation arises from the adjacent possible. I wonder if new steels like MagnaCut – which sit at a different local optimum, thin and hard and tough compared to a typical stainless – open the door to a new kind of consumer sharpener that forms the other half of the equation. Together, that would answer the market demand that started this thread, in a way that satisfies the knife snobs.

I remember a story about an 80s rock band – maybe GNR? – who would, after recording a track in the studio, put the track on a cassette tape and head out to their pickup truck to hear how it sounded in the cab, because that's where their audience was listening. If indie knifemakers did the same, they'd be testing their blades on pull-throughs as well as water stones, and they would announce not only HRC and BESS and CATRA results, but "compatible with Chef's Choice 15XV".

In the meantime, maybe the answer OP is looking for, is an 8" from Messermeister, e.g. this one in SG2, made in Japan with handsome wood handle.

SG2 would be your best bet for staying sharp the longest.

Sweet potatoes slice themselves when they see it coming.

I love my Messermeisters for their beautiful wooden handles

Send it in for sharpening once a year or so, $13 a pop. Your wife might appreciate that they're 100% women-and-family-owned, in Ojai.

 

[MrHiggins]

One thing occurred to me, what reason do I give my wife when she asks why I didn't get a Shun or Miyabi? I'd say because this is way cooler but is there a generally agreed upon difference between these (above) and the Shun/Miyabi?

Hi, Paul. We're all knife geeks here, and while we all have our own opinions and preferences, we all agree that a handmade knife is much more desirable than a mass made/corporate knife. They have sole and craftsmanship and are better made with higher quality materials and personalized attention to details.

You (or, more importantly, your wife) may not have the same aesthetics. I know that in my house, my wife feels more comfortable with corporate products because they're familiar (for example, I recently I picked up a loaf of wheat bread from a good French bakery. The next morning, I see that my wife had made our kid's sandwich with the supermarket Orowheat bread. To me, there's no question I'd reach for the freshly baked loaf made by an artesian using high quality ingredients. For my wife, she knows she like Orowheat, and she probably didn't want to slice her own bread, so she reached for the comfortable choice). Anyway, I think that's something to consider for you with regard to purchasing a new knife.

With that said, we have a saying in our family: "you can always get used to something better." And better you new knife will be, there's no question about it!

If it was me in your shoes, I'd take a look at the Hattori knives at Japanese Chef Knives. They're made of VG10 steel, and the one I've had for 5 years has treated me VERY well. They are hand made, but don't appear to be because of the meticulous construction. They are very low maintenance, stay sharp for a decent amount of time (see all the comments on sharping above), and I think are a perfect knife to bridge the gap between you old beater knife and the high performance world of Japanese knives. Also, the handle is very comfortable and is the familiar western style, rather than the wooden japanese style.

Here's the link to the product page: Hattori Forums FH Series

Anyway, them's my $0.02.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Are pull-throughs really verboten? They were designed for exactly this segment of the market, which is huge and needs no excuse.

They won’t match water stones or a computer-controlled Tormek, but they will rebuild and maintain an edge consistently so if the OP buys a knife that’s already thin BTE, then it’ll be good enough for anything a home user can put on a chopping board !

They are absolutely verboten on knives "up to $500". If one is going to use a pull-through, then I say stay with the cheap stuff. Using one on thin hard-steel knives defeats the entire purpose of having thin hard-steel knives. Most of them tear at the steel parallel to the edge, leaving it ragged, losing unnecessary steel, and ultimately producing an edge that won't last. This leads to more frequent trips to the pull-through which leads to faster fattening of the edge ultimately producing a knife that doesn't cut well not matter how sharp it is.

On Thursday my coworker came into my office and said his wife told him he needs to talk to me about a new knife. I've been helping another coworker with the topic and so now he's interested. So he and his wife bought a "nice block set with the built-in sharpeners" that are supposed to "sharpen your knife every time you pull it out so you always have a sharp blade." Well, that novelty wore off pretty quick.

This gentleman is a Metallurgical Engineer and Lead Scientist so he's no dummy and being already so inclined, he looked at his knife edge under a 20x glass. He described the edge as looking like it had been ripped and sanded with low grit paper. He said if runs the pairing knife back and forth in the block opening it will "just cut a tomato now" and that he has to use the heel of the chef knife to "chop down on grilled chicken because the knife won't slice through the skin."

So basically his knives have become axes and they don't work worth a damn any more.

Now my other coworker, also a ME, is ready to move into nicer, harder knives and take a stab at sharpening. But this one has no such desire nd never will. He is hard wired for everything to be the simplest path between cause and effect and he's cheap as hell. So, for him I recommended a Vic chef's knife and a Work Sharp belt sander with the understanding that he'll probably have to buy a new knife every few years.

I think it is great that @PaulE wants to get his wife a nice knife that will make her cooking so much more enjoyable. But with that comes the need to have an appropriate sharpening plan of some type.

 

[mengwong]

Thanks HHC for the detailed explanation. I guess I was thinking that not all pull-throughs are the same – the Chef's Choice electrics might be bad, but for totally different reasons than the angled rods are bad

But with that comes the need to have an appropriate sharpening plan of some type.

We're all rock-rubbers here, but given the clearly expressed preferences, maybe the best sharpening plan for @PaulE is

a Burgvogel/Messermeister sent out once a year

With some advance planning, schedule the sharpening for that one week a year you and your wife are out of town, et

 

[Delat]

All the recommendations above are great.

But I’m going to go against the grain and say to just buy a Shun. It’s mainstream, it looks good, your wife and her friends will all recognize it. But most importantly you can just drop it in the mail for free sharpening.

From what I’ve heard, Shun’s sharpening service is pretty mediocre but acceptable for the mass market. OP’s very strong desire to only sharpen once a year indicates his wife will be just fine with a mediocre edge, and a Shun VG10 (or VGMAX or whatever they’re calling it these days) will hold a reasonably useful edge for a year with moderate use.

Basically I’m saying OP is asking for a minivan and we’re all recommending porsches. But for a porsche that can double as a minivan, you can swing way over to steels like ZDP-189 and HAP40 - sukenari I think is the brand that has knives in those steels. Those steels are supposed to hold an edge for ages. The downside is that you’ll want to send them to someone who knows what they’re doing for sharpening, not the local sharpener in the mall. JKI in LA and others have been mentioned, and you can use the mail for them as well.

I vaguely recall hearing ZDP is chippy? But then again so is some VG10, so there’s no free lunch.

 

[damiano]

Just get a MAC Pro. With your budget you can include a nice bread knife, slicer and petty. Live happily ever after...

 

[OnionSlicer]

Just get a Shun, the classic 8" with a blonde wood handle looks good, blows away your calphalon, gets free sharpening service, and a is premium brand your wife will recognize.

And make sure you're honing properly. It's not wack wack wack freestyle like in a Gordon Ramsay video, should only take one or two careful strokes per side. Get a fine ceramic rod (I like the MAC 10.5" black), do some research, then practice on cheap knives.