Which Steel Has the Best Edge Retention?

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Chef Doom said:
I need do some extensive research to discover what steel chainsaws are made of. They are always around in workable condition under any circumstances in every post-apocalyptic film so the steel has to be awesome. [emoji108]
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Anything goes in Hollywood. In the real world chains are replaced a lot. You can sharpen the teeth to get more life out of a chain.
 
Chef knives also use a lot of steel compared to a folder. The extra cost of S110V or M390 along with the extra cost and time from grinding and finishing all of that highly wear resistant steel makes it less desirable to the maker. That plus what is already being done tends to be copied.
 
Keith Sinclair said:
Anything goes in Hollywood. In the real world chains are replaced a lot. You can sharpen the teeth to get more life out of a chain.
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I will get anywhere from 1/2 tank of fuel (really dry, dirty aussie hardwood) to half a dozen tanks (clean softwood) before needing to sharpen.

If the chain kisses the dirt- it needs a sharpen. Hit a rock and you'll have a bigger sharpening job. Or a new chain.

IIRC, the cutters are mostly pretty soft steel, with just the top and side plates being hard. A bit like a single bevel knife, I guess.
 
Larrin said:
Chef knives also use a lot of steel compared to a folder. The extra cost of S110V or M390 along with the extra cost and time from grinding and finishing all of that highly wear resistant steel makes it less desirable to the maker. That plus what is already being done tends to be copied.
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That makes sense. I figured the popularity of R2 powder steel with many quality knife makers is because it works well for kitchen knives.
 
Larrin said:
Chef knives also use a lot of steel compared to a folder. The extra cost of S110V or M390 along with the extra cost and time from grinding and finishing all of that highly wear resistant steel makes it less desirable to the maker. That plus what is already being done tends to be copied.
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Those properties are the ones that make them
Most desirable. Incredible edge holding and performance and a technical challenge to make. And performance that exceedes practically everything else on the market.
 
pennman said:
Those properties are the ones that make them
Most desirable. Incredible edge holding and performance and a technical challenge to make. And performance that exceedes practically everything else on the market.
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Most desirable by who? Isn’t desirability subjective? Don’t exotic alloys come with trade offs? For folks that sharpen their own knives, it seems that wear resistance doesn’t typically top the list of desired steel attributes. Personally, I like stainless with good edge retention for pocket knives, but I prefer kitchen knives that are easily sharpened and that take a keener edge.
 
In one of the articles Larrin showed that toughness of steel is closely related to amount of carbides thus one may experience chipping more easily with high alloy steels. One may want to counteract that with larger sharpening angle - but that (as another article from Larrin shows) decreases the cutting ability rather quickly.

Now - it is not all that simple and these dependencies are not linear, but would not this behavior pull a break on how long a knife made if high alloy steel will be perceived as ‘sharp enough’ ? Just thinking loud
 
Interapid101 said:
Most desirable by who? Isn’t desirability subjective? Don’t exotic alloys come with trade offs? For folks that sharpen their own knives, it seems that wear resistance doesn’t typically top the list of desired steel attributes. Personally, I like stainless with good edge retention for pocket knives, but I prefer kitchen knives that are easily sharpened and that take a keener edge.
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To sharpen and XHP knife, two different grits, takes about 3-4 minutes. To sharpen an M4 knife of the same length takes 10-12 minutes but needs to start at a lower grit so usually requires 3 grits. Yes, it takes 3-4x longer, but what’s 12 min out of your life vs. 4 minutes?
 
Matus said:
In one of the articles Larrin showed that toughness of steel is closely related to amount of carbides thus one may experience chipping more easily with high alloy steels. One may want to counteract that with larger sharpening angle - but that (as another article from Larrin shows) decreases the cutting ability rather quickly.

Now - it is not all that simple and these dependencies are not linear, but would not this behavior pull a break on how long a knife made if high alloy steel will be perceived as ‘sharp enough’ ? Just thinking loud
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Larrin was very helpful in learning about how these toughness measurements are done. The toughness measurements were done by the charpie method which measures side impact toughness in a standard steel specimen from a swinging weight, notched or unnotched, a stress that chef knife edges are not really exposed to. And the references all state that charpie toughness measurements on hardened steel are unreliable measurements. Edge chipping on a cutting board is a torsional stress and is measured by a different method and different machinery. Those data we haven’t seen yet if they exist.
 
DitmasPork said:
From a knifemaker's perspective—which I know little about—are steels like CPM S110V, m390 and hap40 much more challenging with heat treatments, etc.
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I credible sounding youtube vid compared S110V from Spyderco, and Phil Wilson who is well known for his work in S110V. Lots of other PM steels represented also. Anyway the Wilson knife allegedly had twice the edge retention of the Spyde, and took top honors overall.
 
pennman said:
Larrin was very helpful in learning about how these toughness measurements are done. The toughness measurements were done by the charpie method which measures side impact toughness in a standard steel specimen from a swinging weight, notched or unnotched, a stress that chef knife edges are not really exposed to. And the references all state that charpie toughness measurements on hardened steel are unreliable measurements. Edge chipping on a cutting board is a torsional stress and is measured by a different method and different machinery. Those data we haven’t seen yet if they exist.
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It’s charpy and your assertions of unreliable measurements are inaccurate. Torsion toughness tests aren’t used by anyone anymore and different steels can’t even be compared with torsion toughness testing.
 
Some of the better heat treats are high tech, with vaccuum and cryo etc
can not imagine all mass-produced knives have the optimal HT for all steels,

Bark River had a similar discussion about ELMAX,
saying the windo for this steel is very small,
need to be withing a more narrow ~1 point range,
or it kinda sucks...so IMHO HT is everyhting
with certain steels.

(Just like the discussion we had around AEB-L...
but please lets not repeat that discussion here.)
 
Like edge retention and stainless with my yardwork spyderco M390.

For busy pro kitchen environment like carbon steel with it's ease of a couple measured strops on a S&G stone to refresh the edge. There are some stainless clad carbons that work really well in a busy kitchen.

I do not know why some steels like SRS15, R2, AEBL, and Ginsan are easy to sharpen & deburr while other super steels take more effort to sharpen.

I can see how a good edge retention stainless blade with a thin behind the edge grind would work in a home situation where sharpening and touchups are much less. I'm pretty spoiled with using carbon knives with great grinds at work around 25 years.
 
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Larrin said:
It’s charpy and your assertions of unreliable measurements are inaccurate. Torsion toughness tests aren’t used by anyone anymore and different steels can’t even be compared with torsion toughness testing.
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Sorry about the auto correct error of “charpy”. I’m not making any assertions. Im just using the references you gave me and quoting them directly. Are they inaccurate?
 
Yes, they are inaccurate. The book is referring to notched impact tests. Newer editions stopped talking about torsion toughness because the company stopped using them and transitioned to unnotched impact testing.
 
Larrin, you are a very humble person. Thank you for your patience & generosity. Happy holidays.
 
Larrin said:
Yes, they are inaccurate. The book is referring to notched impact tests. Newer editions stopped talking about torsion toughness because the company stopped using them and transitioned to unnotched impact testing.
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Yes. I understand that torsional toughness testing has not been used for a long time. What about comparing notched and unnotched impact testing? Is there a linear relationship to the results from materials tested in the notched and unnotched tests? If notched impact testing is unreliable in hardened steels, is unnotched impacting testing reliable in hardened steels?
 
You can see unnotched testing results on the websites of Carpenter, Bohler, and Uddeholm. Crucible uses a gentle “c-notch” which behaves similarly to unnotched specimens.
 
Larrin said:
Chef knives also use a lot of steel compared to a folder. The extra cost of S110V or M390 along with the extra cost and time from grinding and finishing all of that highly wear resistant steel makes it less desirable to the maker. That plus what is already being done tends to be copied.
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I hear what you're saying. Just out of curiosity I did a search for kitchen knife makers using M390, did find these knife makers:
http://www.bladesofthegods.com/collection-shop/ryan-clift-m390/
(no prices for this one)
https://bradfordknives.com/chef-series/71-chef-10.html
http://www.customsweetness.com/knife_09/

They're not as pricey as I would've thought—granted I've not heard of these makers. No intention on pulling the trigger, I love carbons.

I can see the value of a 'super steel' petty, since in my kitchen it's what tends to get used for everything from trimming fat to cutting twine and plastic.
 
I like a thick as a brick carbon petty as a durable do it all no worries blade. No matter how thick a carbon blade you can still make it very sharp. ;)
 
Everyone is worried about thinning a "super steel" kitchen knife. Why not just order a hollow ground blade? It will be half worn out by the time you have to thin it.
Tim
 
tim37 said:
Everyone is worried about thinning a "super steel" kitchen knife. Why not just order a hollow ground blade? It will be half worn out by the time you have to thin it.
Tim
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First - irrespective from the grind you have ti thin behind the edge, just different grinds will mean different amount of effort necessary to get it done. Second - basically nobody makes a tall concave grind on kitchen knives - for a reason.
 
tim37 said:
What is the reason?
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Kitchen knife isn't a pocket knife, they have different amounts of total surface area.
So the grind needs to be optimized differently.

10x2=20/2=~10 square inches of surface area roughly on a 10 inch chef
4x1=4/2=~2 square inches of surface area rouhly on a 4 inch pocket knife

Thats 5x multiple or 500% more important for a chef knife that
the grind is correct, otherwise blade can (will) stick to food.

Also 5x harder to customize vs a pocketknive
if the grind sucks or blade is made of super-steel, etc

Just my $0.02
 
tim37 said:
What is the reason?
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Cutting properties. Concave grind maximizes the contact surface between the knife and the food and thus maximizes drag/friction. And of course large concave grind is the best for food stiction.
 
merlijny2k said:
They cán be found......
https://www.hillknives.com/hk-0008.html
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Well yes - would anyone around here buy one? It probably works fine for slicing meat, but cutting an onion with that thing will be quite an experience I would guess.

I know another one - the Nesmuk Janus knives available in Germany. I had one in hand (did not use it). The grind made no sense at all. Basically a chef knife but to compensate for the lack of mechanical strength (full concave grind) it was rather thick behind the edge. No thanks.
 
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