Honing a micro-bevel

So I've recently been following Jon's video on placing micro bevels on knives. I work in a professional environment so typicaly I run my knives down a ceramic honing rod to realign the bevel so this had me thinking how to do it for a micro-bevel?

Anybody have any thoughts?

I'd assume I'd hone the knife the same as if I were sharpening it rigt? I would hone one at the extreme angle then the other one at the normal angle I oriinally sharpened t at?

What kind of knives are involved? Steel type?

if you're putting a microbevel on a knife, its because its crazy thin and/or crazy hard, and a honing rod is not the best idea in either case

JBroida said:

if you're putting a microbevel on a knife, its because its crazy thin and/or crazy hard, and a honing rod is not the best idea in either case

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So then would you recommend me stropping it every now and then or giving it a quick pass on a stone?

Benuser said:

What kind of knives are involved? Steel type?

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I'm talking about my Konosuke HD2 240mm Gyuto and a 210mm Masakage Yuki Gyuto

yeah... stropping or a quick pass on the stone would be ideal... especially considering the knives

JBroida said:

yeah... stropping or a quick pass on the stone would be ideal... especially considering the knives

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Perfect! Thanks for the advice I'll definitely look into buying a strop so I can maintain my knives correctly!

Make it a leather strop as I don't think balsa will stand up to the abuse likely received in a pro kitchen. I haven't fooled with it yetbut I would think 3 micron diamond slurry would be about right for the kono.

rick alen said:

Make it a leather strop as I don't think balsa will stand up to the abuse likely received in a pro kitchen. I haven't fooled with it yetbut I would think 3 micron diamond slurry would be about right for the kono.

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So that brings me to my next question. I sharpen my knives on a synthetic Norton 1000/4000 stone. So going by grits a 3 micron paste would be equivalent to a 5000 grit? I did some background research just now but please correct me if I am wrong. And what would be the difference between using a spray compared to a paste?

Rivera, After sharpening, flatten and wash your 4000 and just strop off your last stone?

I've gone back and fourth with my strop collection over the years and my conclusion is its best to strop on something hard, usually your last stone.

In my experience leather, loaded or not, will polish the edge and for kitchen work will produces a false sharpness that will be immediately be lost upon first contact with the board.

You might try edge leading stropping as well. I've found this is the best way to remove an form of burr. Also, unless your knife is super thin behind the edge or super hard, I would not recommend a microbevel.

Mucho Bocho said:

Rivera, After sharpening, flatten and wash your 4000 and just strop off your last stone?

I've gone back and fourth with my strop collection over the years and my conclusion is its best to strop on something hard, usually your last stone.

In my experience leather, loaded or not, will polish the edge and for kitchen work will produces a false sharpness that will be immediately be lost upon first contact with the board.

You might try edge leading stropping as well. I've found this is the best way to remove an form of burr. Also, unless your knife is super thin behind the edge or super hard, I would not recommend a microbevel.

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It's not a false sharpness, it's just that a super keen edge just doesn't hold up to the board, but it is always a nice place to start. And I have to say that a microbevel works on evey kind of knife and steel.

I might also add that I recommended stropping on loaded leather instead of a fine stone only because it's light weight and convenience when mounted to a light wood paddle. I should think 3 micron paste or spray slurry would be fine, main difference in the 2 here is mainly the paste is more effort to clean up.

I've got the materials, just haven't got around to it yet, but I am going to try just squirting diluted slurry onto mounted tyvec. I think it should work fine and save money, tyvec will handle the extra liquid without problem, is cheap and there will be no over spray problem.

Rick, I hear ya and certainly respect your opinion, but I don't agree with you about leather on kitchen knives. In my experience, because leather has some give to it is what makes it a poor substrate if your after a kitchen edge.

I don't think there is a sharpening medium, gimic, guided system that I either don't have or haven't used. Including James new sand paper holder (that I love). I feel the same way about felt (OMG, did Ken start that one)? What do they do in Japan? I don't see leather hanging around?

I always finish each stone while sharpening by stropping on that stone before moving up to the next stone to blend the scratch pattern on the edge from sectional sharpening. This includes the final stone whatever grit that may be. It feels like an incomplete job if I don't strop on felt with chromium oxide or diamond depending upon the knife. The knife just doesn't get as sharp. I've tried leather but it's much easier to **** up an edge with leather than felt. I've never ****** up an edge on felt. At the end of the day it's whatever you feel most comfortable with and whatever works best for you. I've achieved my best results on felt so that's how I roll.

Rick, It works for you, but its not necessary to produce spectacular kitchen edges. For someone learning to free hand sharpen, adding 0.5 micron paste, on 2mm horse leather, in the direction of the moon, adds too many variables and they get hung up on this paste and so and so's hard felt...

Whats important is to:
Learn to hold the knife.
Learn your stones and your steels.
Learn to read the edge by listening, feeling and observing.
Learn to test your finished edges.

In fact, I don't want a knife to shave arm hair. Ask yourself, how many recipes have you cooked that require arm hair as an ingredient? LOL

Well as I said super-keen is not for the board, unless you are landing only with the tip as with sashimi. Also, there are a number of veggies I slice down to as little as 0.25mm. Trouble doing this with some items, let alone get a clean product, unless you're approaching real-razor sharp. Goes for charcuterie too.

Mucho Bocho said:

Rick, It works for you, but its not necessary to produce spectacular kitchen edges. For someone learning to free hand sharpen, adding 0.5 micron paste, on 2mm horse leather, in the direction of the moon, adds too many variables and they get hung up on this paste and so and so's hard felt...

Whats important is to:
Learn to hold the knife.
Learn your stones and your steels.
Learn to read the edge by listening, feeling and observing.
Learn to test your finished edges.

In fact, I don't want a knife to shave arm hair. Ask yourself, how many recipes have you cooked that require arm hair as an ingredient? LOL

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About as many that require cigarette ash, dead skin cells or what have you. I bet you get a little bit of all of that plus more, though. Well, maybe not the ash from the smoke, unless it is my grandmother who was cooking. A bit hard at this point as she has long since expired but that is beyond the point.

Regardless, you say something interesting. A knife that shaves arm hair may or may not work just fine in the kitchen as it really isn't that hard to get a knife to shave hair. However, I put on some relatively sharp but coarse edges that don't really shave well yet still go through food like it wasn't there. Honestly, for most uses I think many of us go well beyond what we need when sharpening a knife. I used a Norton India stone for years, as did my grandfather, and didn't know anything finer even existed. My knives were still loads sharper than anyone else that I knew.

As Rick said, specialties aside that is.

Mucho Bocho said:

Whats important is to:
Learn to hold the knife.
Learn your stones and your steels.
Learn to read the edge by listening, feeling and observing.
Learn to test your finished edges.

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This pretty much sums up the most important techniques to knife sharpening. :thumbsup:

In my experience, to produce a durable sharp edge it must be created on stones first. Leather strops can straighten a weak edge (fatigued steel) or straighten burrs that should have been removed. Which will lead to a volatile edge that won't last long. Giving a false sense of sharp.

But I don't think strops are entirely useless. A compound loaded leather strop can help clean up any remaining burrs so the new durable edge made on stones is fully exposed. The compounds also produce a shiny edge but it's just for cosmetic purposes. Leather strops are more optional in my sharpening routine.

I should think a loaded strop is as aggressive as a fine stone. 3 micron diamond should remove metal about as well as a 6 or 8K I would think. All right this weekend I'm breaking out the materials and learning first hand.

rick alen said:

I slice down to as little as 0.25mm. Trouble doing this with some items, let alone get a clean...

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That's apparently the width of 3 human hairs...you may need this

Stropping on a pasted hanging strop is creating a micro bevel or at least slightly convexing the edge. As long as you don't overdo you won't build a foil edge. 3-5 strokes is all you need. Diamond is more aggressive than say CrOx or Mother's Billet polish which is AlumOx. But I just do some circles on a small 6x2 hand held finisher.

Mucho Bocho said:

direction of the moon

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Don't go gettin all Schwartzy over there! lol

I would never suggest any of that overthinking it approach. Angle cubes and ultraviolet gamma ray sub atomic microscopes. ***? We're rubbing a piece of steel on a rock. That's pretty much it. That's why I always say do whatever works for you. The edges I produce are extremely sharp, long lasting in an all day working environment, easily achievable and repeatable. So it works pretty well for me. It may take a while to gain an understanding and develop the muscle memory but once it clicks that's about it. I think that's the most important thing. Just do you until it becomes second nature.

you dont need to buy a strop. if you dont want to have to take out the stone, you can just use a piece of cardboard or folded up parchment paper. or in a pinch use the ceramic rod with the LIGHTEST touch possible. dont bother with compounds and stuff, that's useless for pro environment.

HRC_64 said:

That's apparently the width of 3 human hairs...you may need this

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Ahahahahaha, yeh but if you're using raw garlic slivers as a garnish then c-hairs is just what you want to be pulling. ;-)~

What Theory says too, with experience the knife and it's intended purpose will guide your hands. It's practice and luck actually, and the more you practice the luckier you get. That and some good visualization skills.

Mucho Bocho said:

Also, unless your knife is super thin behind the edge or super hard, I would not recommend a microbevel.

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Could you please expound on this. What is the relationship between thin behind the edge as well as hard and a micro-bevel?

Thx

If the knife is super thin and very hard it can be brittle. Putting a microbevel on the edge will give it strength to prevent chipping at the compromise of extreme sharpness.

IMO maintaining en edge on the last stone you used in your progression is both economical and helpful for skill development.

You don't have to buy anything and the regular stropping on the stone is great for developing muscle memory.

After stropping on the stone I very gently swipe the edge on denim or fabric to get rid of any wire that could stay on the edge (I got that trick from a video of the Takamura brothers sharpening, I have also seen Yu Kurosaki doing it).

I have some strops and chromium oxide but I leave that for my razors.

galvaude said:

IMO maintaining en edge on the last stone you used in your progression is both economical and helpful for skill development.

You don't have to buy anything and the regular stropping on the stone is great for developing muscle memory.

After stropping on the stone I very gently swipe the edge on denim or fabric to get rid of any wire that could stay on the edge (I got that trick from a video of the Takamura brothers sharpening, I have also seen Yu Kurosaki doing it).

I have some strops and chromium oxide but I leave that for my razors.

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Agreed but I still think your rounding the apex w the denim. Remember if you don't produce a burr in the first place, there will be none to remove.

Mucho Bocho said:

Agreed but I still think your rounding the apex w the denim. Remember if you don't produce a burr in the first place, there will be none to remove.

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I completely agree with you. Sometimes I can do more harm than good with it, but on some steels it provides more durability than I can get with stones alone, the limit here is my skills.

Sometimes I use it more out of habit and doubts than anything.

ThEoRy said:

If the knife is super thin and very hard it can be brittle. Putting a microbevel on the edge will give it strength to prevent chipping at the compromise of extreme sharpness.

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Yeh some for sure, but I've stropped in a steep micro-bevel on SRS-15 steel (fine-grained for stainless but not exactly carbon), like close to 30deg/side, and could still catch a hanging hair. Works great for rapid-fire thin-slice chopping on the board.

If you're hitting the board the hanging-hair sharp is going to disappear like instantaneous-quick no matter what, but the MB will keep you real-decent-sharp for quite a while.