Advice Needed: My Next Knife

[Oui Chef]

As fine a chiffonade as possible (and in the case of dill and chives this fully suffices as 'mincing') using push cut or glide and guillotine to minimise the need of rocking to finish. then finish with careful light rocking.
When the chiffonade is super fine you minimise a lot of time spent using the knife in a rocking motion. Its also just faster and the techniques for chiffonade result in less bruising of the herb as well.

 

[NO ChoP!]

32 years strong and still going in the kitchen. I out stamina every young punk in my kitchen every day.

Knives are tools that are in hand for literally dozens of hours a week. It seems a pro chef should have at least some knowledge/ interest.

I find that one serious knife guy can ignite interest in an entire kitchen.

In my kitchen, excluding my own, you will find a Saji, Hinoura, TF, Takedas, Konosuke, Kato, Yoshimune, Tanakas, Masakages, Moritakas, Gihei, Miyabis, Shuns, ZKramer, to name a bunch.

 

[Corradobrit1]

In my kitchen, excluding my own, you will find a Saji, Hinoura, TF, Takedas, Konosuke, Kato, Yoshimune, Tanakas, Masakages, Moritakas, Gihei, Miyabis, Shuns, ZKramer, to name a bunch.

No Shigs? The pro's have spoken......

 

[Paul6001]

As fine a chiffonade as possible (and in the case of dill and chives this fully suffices as 'mincing') using push cut or glide and guillotine to minimise the need of rocking to finish. then finish with careful light rocking.
When the chiffonade is super fine you minimise a lot of time spent using the knife in a rocking motion. Its also just faster and the techniques for chiffonade result in less bruising of the herb as well.

I could see a chiffonade, although I think it would be slower. (And I can’t see how you could make a chiffinade of dill.) But that is only one of the many necessary cuts. What do you do with something like thyme that can’t be rolled? What do you do with garlic?

 

[Oui Chef]

Its faster. I'm not the one asking questions. The point is that techniques used for chiffonade when applied to herbs like dill and chives result in a nice fine mince.

I've never been asked to mince thyme because the leaves are generally very small and its rarely used raw, its more generally cooked down in a dish or used for infusion. And I microplane garlic if I need a paste, but finely slicing it is generally sufficient.

Maybe Dave was right and you should get a vnox and crayons. My recommendation is still the yoshikane but the tanaka's are probably a better bet.
I'm sure you'll be happy no matter what since there have been plenty of great knives suggested.

 

[Oui Chef]

I find that one serious knife guy can ignite interest in an entire kitchen.

This is definitely the case. So much fun to watch all your crew start appreciating knives more and getting interested in smiths etc

 

[Chuckles]

It’s just way more fun with the right knife.

I watched Jacque do garlic in that video up the thread. I cut garlic like that all the time. He push cuts and then does that double tap thing. I think that technique is totally doable without torquing the edge. If you are focused on strong dominant hand straight up and down the blade just hits in two places per stroke instead of one and it has never been an issue for me. Not ideal on a white 1 laser at 64 but most guys that have a knife like that have another one they would use for that task anyway.

 

[Mathias Z.]

I’m looking for a 240mm gyuto with a nashiji finish. This is mostly a reaction to my first Japanese knife, a 210mm Wakui gyuto with a migaki finish. The knife is so light that I don’t feel like I have anything in my hand. My hands suddenly feel like catcher’s mitts. Back in the Wusthof days, I tried to move from 8” to 10” but it was too heavy and it just didn’t take. With Japanese knives, I don’t foresee a problem and I’d like the extra reach.

I need a profile that will allow for some rocking. I definitely want a carbon edge, but I’m not sure about the cladding. Can they make nashiji out of stainless? Even if they can, do I need stainless? Will age and wear help the nashiji become more personal, more custom-looking. I’m not eager to do too much maintenance—one reason I like the Wakui—but will the nashiji save me?

Price. Well, FT makes a nice one but it’s a little out of my range. I’d very much like to stay under $200. Saying $200 means I’m not going to turn away if the price creeps up to $230, but $280 is too much.

What do we think about Masakage Yuki? I know some people here got thicker knives than they expected but look at the choil shot on the Knifewear site. Beautiful. And hits right at my price point.

My vitals—home cook, pinch grip, push and rocking cuts, do my own sharpening, wa handle, right handed, bamboo cutting board, nashiji just because I like it.

I don’t want to make a radical change from the Wakui. I want to stay on the thin/light side of the street. It’s just that the 210 Wakui feels small in my hands. Is it partly the far forward balance point? I’m guessing that’s part of it. Maybe it’s just that eight inches was my natural fit with Western knives but 240 is my natural size in Japanese.

All input is welcome. Thank you in advance.

I would go with a Hiroshi Kato or from the same smith Kanehiro knife: They are reasonable in price and the AS steel hardened to 64 HRC or so - the Koishi Masakage is an offspring i think.

 

[ian]

It’s just way more fun with the right knife.

I watched Jacque do garlic in that video up the thread. I cut garlic like that all the time. He push cuts and then does that double tap thing. I think that technique is totally doable without torquing the edge. If you are focused on strong dominant hand straight up and down the blade just hits in two places per stroke instead of one and it has never been an issue for me. Not ideal on a white 1 laser at 64 but most guys that have a knife like that have another one they would use for that task anyway.

Somehow I've never seen someone chop with two pressure points like that. Mind blown.

For something coarser than microplane, I'll usually just chop up the garlic like it's an onion, with horizontal and two types of vertical cuts. But I imagine this technique would take too much time for some professional environments.

Also, you don't need to rock to mince herbs. I'll chiffonade when possible, but just coming up and down off the board can be done pretty fast. Rocking somehow feels faster, but I imagine the chops are happening at near the same speed when you're just going up and down. The trick is that there's more board contact per stroke with a rock, since the whole edge comes in contact at different times, so when straight chopping you have to make sure that the herbs stay concentrated right under where your knife is contacting the board. If your knife has a lot of belly, this might be hard, but if the profile's pretty flat it's not so bad. The other solution: leave herbs large when possible.

 

[Random]

BTW, how do you mince herbs without rocking? If I had to pick up the whole knife for every stroke and put it back down in a perfectly straight line, it doesn’t seem like I’d get anywhere very fast. Yes, I’ve seen the speed demons on YouTube. I suppose one of them might get the job done (although it seems like it’d be an awful lot of work), but what does Joe Blow do?

Text bolded by me for context.

Quite honestly, I don't know how I cut anything. I may be rocking, chopping, stabbing, twisling....who knows. The food just ends up in a shape close to what I intended.

I learned professional knife skills decades ago but did they stick with me? I have no idea. I find that when I start thinking about cutting is when mistakes happen, so my knife work is almost always on autopilot. If after prepping some food, you asked what method I used, I couldn't possibly tell you.

Not sure that adds to the conversation, just thought I would throw it out there.

 

[inferno]

BTW, how do you mince herbs without rocking? If I had to pick up the whole knife for every stroke and put it back down in a perfectly straight line, it doesn’t seem like I’d get anywhere very fast. Yes, I’ve seen the speed demons on YouTube. I suppose one of them might get the job done (although it seems like it’d be an awful lot of work), but what does Joe Blow do?

in my opinion you can do whatever you want with the knives, like rock chopping and turning at the same time. IF you put a sufficient microbevel on the edge.
No problem at all.

I have some knives with almost "zero edges" and some with quite large microbevels. and i use them for different kinds of things.

i'd say just get the knife you want and then if it chips out put a microbevel of suitable size on there and that problem will go away. easy as that.

 

[Paul6001]

I bought a Yoshihiro white #2 in a light kurouchi finish. Reactive cladding, but you can’t have everything.

I bought it through Amazon from a store named YuiSenri in Sakai/Osaka. Yoshihiro makes it for them but they sell it under their own name.

https://yuisenri.com/products/yuisenri-white-steel-paring-black?ls=en

I guess I got the last one. It’s no longer up on Amazon or the store’s site. It looks a lot like this. More kurouchi plus kanji. This is the actual knife, except I got a lighter colored handle:

https://www.thebladerunner.com.au/product/yoshihiro-gyuto-chefs-knife-kurouchi-240mm/

For a moment, I made the right decision and bought nothing at all. But I’m weak, and on sale for $139 I couldn’t resist.

But that’s it! I’m done! I’ve got more knives than anyone could possibly need, including two(!) gyutos. I’m not leaving the J knife world (I hear a cross-country sigh of relief) but I’m not buying any more. This wholly unnecessary diversion hasn’t cost me all that much, and I’ve recouped some money by selling stuff on eBay. (Including money wasted on a Shun santoku and an old Sabatier that are still available).

Two months ago, I didn’t know the J knife world existed. After a short but intense education, I’m all knifed up. (Is that an expression?) And now I will give the iPad a rest and start reading again instead of shopping for knives.

PS: The store I bought from, and others, identify themselves as being in “Sakai/Osaka.” Is Sakai essentially a neighborhood in the larger city?

 

[ian]

Ouch, sorry to hear the process was so time consuming. I sometimes feel like I’m spending months picking a knife too, but it usually only adds up to a half hour a day at most, rather than an amount of time equivalent to that you’d spend at your job at a time of peak pressure and importance. Hope you enjoy the knife!

 

[Paul6001]

Please don’t misunderstand me. All that time spent was a joy. I’m sorry that it’s over. As a practical matter there are certainly far more productive ways for me to spend my time. But it was anything but a burden.

 

[Paul6001]

Free advice: As I scoured the globe looking for a knife, I came across a store in Montreal named Alambika. Absolutely crazy prices on the TF nashiji line. Be careful of their currency converter, though. They aren’t that crazy.

 

[Paul6001]

Somehow I've never seen someone chop with two pressure points like that. Mind blown.

For something coarser than microplane, I'll usually just chop up the garlic like it's an onion, with horizontal and two types of vertical cuts. But I imagine this technique would take too much time for some professional environments.

Also, you don't need to rock to mince herbs. I'll chiffonade when possible, but just coming up and down off the board can be done pretty fast. Rocking somehow feels faster, but I imagine the chops are happening at near the same speed when you're just going up and down. The trick is that there's more board contact per stroke with a rock, since the whole edge comes in contact at different times, so when straight chopping you have to make sure that the herbs stay concentrated right under where your knife is contacting the board. If your knife has a lot of belly, this might be hard, but if the profile's pretty flat it's not so bad. The other solution: leave herbs large when possible.

Sorry for the late reply but I hadn’t read these posts before. Jacques is one of my heroes and the way he cuts garlic is a big reason why. Don’t forget that you have to smash the garlic before you start your double rock. If there’s someone in Japan, if there’s someone anywhere, that can process garlic faster, I’d like to meet him. Or her.

Not to refuel an old argument but it seems to me that as long as you don’t hold the tip of the knife in a death grip, torque isn’t a problem.

Did you know that after Jacques worked for De Gaulle, he moved to the U.S. and became head chef at Howard Johnson’s?

 

[stringer]

Don’t forget that you have to smash the garlic before you start your double rock. If there’s someone in Japan, if there’s someone anywhere, that can process garlic faster, I’d like to meet him. Or her.

Not to refuel an old argument but it seems to me that as long as you don’t hold the tip of the knife in a death grip, torque isn’t a problem.

I chop a lot of garlic and herbs for banquet work. Like 5-10 pounds at a time. The double rock power chop with lots of rotation and torque on a plastic board is one of the first durability tests I put a new knife through. I normally wouldn't subject say, an Ashi laser Sujihiki to the old double rock technique through a half bushel of parsley. But someone in the kitchen might and I need to know that it would hold up to the damage. I need to know if the factory edge has any weak spots or fatigued metal. Although I've never set foot in a Michelin starred kitchen and I frequent this forum so I'm probably not a serious chef.

Merry Christmas!

 

[M1k3]

Welp, I'm not a serious Chef either

 

[daveb]

I'm a serious dishie!

 

[M1k3]

That's where I started! I still am the first to jump in the pit when it's needed.